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  1. #161
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    My own theory is that a good chunk of folks simply weren't enthusiastic about the overall vibe of the content, nor various changes made to player mechanics. Pandas and talent trees, for example, were both quite polarizing.

    I'd be curious to see how many players dropped their sub before hitting 90.
    That's fucking RICH I gotta say. I mean you've said before that the argument the game is old is incredible weak but talent trees and pandas are even weaker. The talent treest (and we know this from developer tweets) are largely irrelevant at lower lvls of play. People simple pick whatever and stick with it they don't optimize or play around at all until much higher levels of gameplay. As for pandas I can see people not liking pandas but they bought the bloody expansion with a panda on the front cover already, why they would then leave after seeing a panda in the game is fucking beyond me and is not a very rational explanation for the subscriber drop. Actually the it's old argument is much better, not that I agree with it entirely but it makes more fucking sense then HUR DUR PANDAS AND TALENTS...

    Here's a much more realistic and far more accurate picture of why people are leaving. The developers took a fucking base ball bat to the end game that was so god damn casual friendly in wrath and cata. They stopped making dungeons as content entirely (yes i know some of you got sick of running them but you aren't casual players), they shoved everybody at end game into raiding or raid content at any rate (which is not casual friendly at all), they gutted extremely popular reward systems (once again to shove players into raid content) and told people RNG was good they should love it (which they didn't), and to top it all off in 5.0 they asked people to grind the most ridiculously boring and obnoxious and (once again) not casual friendly content in the universe daily quests. They gutted the casual experience to give the game a more vanilla feel (and their tweets will explain this to you in no uncertain terms), to offer some players "more to do" (when they had lots to do in cataclysm just none of it had gear behind it so they avoided it) and at the same time began to offer increasingly less and less in each patch that had any casual appeal or hell just anything NEW ffs. OH YAY ANOTHER RAID... WGAF? WGAS? Yes casual players left. The game became less suited to them when it became more raid oriented then ever. That's where your subscriber loss is from.

    Now you can make the argument and the case that maybe warcraft isn't for them and you can patronize all you want about it but don't act like it's some mystery and don't give the developers licence to continue to ignore the actual problems by pinning it on things that aren't rational or are largely irrelevant or are even flat out improvements to the game (i.e talent system).
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-10-31 at 07:46 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #162
    Most people forget how boring grinding End time dungeons was before LFR came out.
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  3. #163
    I wouldn't like to see LFR removed, big chance people using raidfinder as their main progression tool will stop playing, less money coming in, we all lose.

    I don't like LFR, i don't do it. It's easy!
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  4. #164
    Why do so many ppl like to put casuals and lfr in the same basket. Sure in start lfr was made maybe for casuals, but it has ended up being the easy way for everyone to just abuse a raiding model to get somewhere in the game.

    If someone has the time to do 4 wings of Soo and spend 2h+ in each wing (20-30min queue + 1h 30min clear), then he can use those 8 hours to do 2 x 4h raids. If you join a normal guild 2 x 4h raids you can clear normal pretty fast and yet you spend the same time in raids as you do when doing lfr. So think casual players can have endgame without lfr, its the bad and even worst then bad player that will not have end game if lfr is removed.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by bigfootbigd View Post
    We already have it its called Flex
    And it doesn't address the needs of the LFR crowd. It addresses friends and family guilds, which aren't quite the same thing as casual players without the time to adhere to set schedules.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    That's fucking RICH I gotta say. I mean you've said before that the argument the game is old is incredible weak but talent trees and pandas are even weaker. The talent treest (and we know this from developer tweets) are largely irrelevant at lower lvls of play. People simple pick whatever and stick with it they don't optimize or play around at all until much higher levels of gameplay. As for pandas I can see people not liking pandas but they bought the bloody expansion with a panda on the front cover already, why they would then leave after seeing a panda in the game is fucking beyond me and is not a very rational explanation for the subscriber drop. Actually the it's old argument is much better, not that I agree with it entirely but it makes more fucking sense then HUR DUR PANDAS AND TALENTS...

    Here's a much more realistic and far more accurate picture of why people are leaving. The developers took a fucking base ball bat to the end game that was so god damn casual friendly in wrath and cata. They stopped making dungeons as content entirely (yes i know some of you got sick of running them but you aren't casual players), they shoved everybody at end game into raiding or raid content at any rate (which is not casual friendly at all), they gutted extremely popular reward systems (once again to shove players into raid content) and told people RNG was good they should love it (which they didn't), and to top it all off in 5.0 they asked people to grind the most ridiculously boring and obnoxious and (once again) not casual friendly content in the universe daily quests. They gutted the casual experience to give the game a more vanilla feel (and their tweets will explain this to you in no uncertain terms) and at the same time began to offer increasingly less and less in each patch that had any casual appeal or hell just anything NEW ffs. OH YAY ANOTHER RAID... WGAF? WGAS? Yes casual players left. The game was less suited to them. That's where your subscriber loss is from.

    Now you can make the argument and the case that maybe warcraft isn't for them and you can patronize all you want about it but don't act like it's some mystery and don't give the developers licence to continue to ignore the actual problems by pinning it on things that aren't rational or are largely irrelevant or are even flat out improvements to the game (i.e talent system).
    You talk about Cata as if it was casual-friendly and the peak of the WoW subscriber numbers. News flash, it wasn't.

    Cata was the start of making things non-casual. Heroic 5mans? Difficult, at least until End Time dungeons were released. Raids? Difficult. Back in Wrath, 10man raids were easier. In Cata? Nope, they made 10mans on par with 25mans, raising the difficulty and getting rid of casual-friendly raiding.

    So not entirely sure how your picture is accurate

  7. #167
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    Normal mode raiding. Casual players should be looking forward towards seeing content by working for it, not get it handed to them on a plate. You can't even call LFR "content" anymore as all you do is run it once in usually literally one day and you're done with it. It's not true content, it's merely a gear distribution center,

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bathory View Post
    Most people forget how boring grinding End time dungeons was before LFR came out.
    Except they didn't take nearly as long as LFR, could be done daily, and had far more specific loot tables.


    Frankly, I'd be all for Normal mode max level dungeons going into either LFR OR self-made groups for difficult heroic dungeons, with the latter awarding slightly better gear.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
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  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    You talk about Cata as if it was casual-friendly and the peak of the WoW subscriber numbers. News flash, it wasn't.

    Cata was the start of making things non-casual. Heroic 5mans? Difficult, at least until End Time dungeons were released. Raids? Difficult. Back in Wrath, 10man raids were easier. In Cata? Nope, they made 10mans on par with 25mans, raising the difficulty and getting rid of casual-friendly raiding.

    So not entirely sure how your picture is accurate
    It was FAR more casual friendly then mists.. once you could complete the content. If you were good enough at the game or had players who were good enough to carry you then yea those early heroics made the game extremely casual friendly. I agree though for most people difficulty of those starting heroics was an issue and difficulty of the raids was an issue. In mists they simple replaced the difficulty of completing the content with the difficulty of sitting at my keyboard for long enough to get it done. You can potentially get past a difficulty wall by being a skilled player or knowing extremely skilled players. You cannot get past a time wall by anything but your ability to commit to those activities. I'm all for easy dungeons with gear to btw. Worked great in Wotlk. I agree cata was the start of the anti casual friendly bend but it was still more casual friendly than mists, you just had to be up to snuff with what the developers figured for good. Still I would welcome that in a fucking HEART BEAT. It would undo most of what they did wrong in mists.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-10-31 at 07:52 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #170
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emfg View Post
    Normal mode raiding. Casual players should be looking forward towards seeing content by working for it, not get it handed to them on a plate. You can't even call LFR "content" anymore as all you do is run it once in usually literally one day and you're done with it. It's not true content, it's merely a gear distribution center,
    Can't "aspire" to do something you don't have any bloody time to do or a guild to do it with available.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It was FAR more casual friendly then mists.. once you could complete the content. If you were good enough at the game or had players who were good enough to carry you then yea those early heroics made the game extremely casual friendly. I agree though for most people difficulty of those starting heroics was an issue and difficulty of the raids was an issue. In mists they simple replaced the difficulty of completing the content with the difficulty of sitting at my keyboard for long enough to get it done. I'm all for easy dungeons with gear to btw. Worked great in Wotlk.
    I think they'll bring back the "easy dungeons for gear" thing. On Timeless Isle, they gave you 496 gear for beating some mobs, which is even easier than doing some heroic dungeons. Looks like they're willing to give you good, raid-ready gear for no effort, might as well do that for dungeons at some point

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Emfg View Post
    Normal mode raiding. Casual players should be looking forward towards seeing content by working for it, not get it handed to them on a plate. You can't even call LFR "content" anymore as all you do is run it once in usually literally one day and you're done with it. It's not true content, it's merely a gear distribution center,
    Of course it's content, how is it not content? Heroic raiders can do Normal SoO in literally one day and never run it again, does that make Normal SoO not true content?

  12. #172
    Plain and simple flex is now casual raiding LFR needs to be removed and replace it with a better gearing Model

  13. #173
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    I think they'll bring back the "easy dungeons for gear" thing. On Timeless Isle, they gave you 496 gear for beating some mobs, which is even easier than doing some heroic dungeons. Looks like they're willing to give you good, raid-ready gear for no effort, might as well do that for dungeons at some point
    You're aware that's what the initial tier of MoP was like, right?

    Raids were tuned to be doable in H MoP dungeon gear, which were cakewalks, easier even than WotLK heroics. People in raiding guilds just chose to whine and bitch about dailies and coins and LFR instead of just doing the normal mode raids.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
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    Kaleredar is right...
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  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    You're aware that's what the initial tier of MoP was like, right?

    Raids were tuned to be doable in H MoP dungeon gear, which were cakewalks, easier even than WotLK heroics. People just chose to whine and bitch about dailies and LFR.
    That's the thing: it was the INITIAL tier. That's how ALL initial tiers work: you use Heroic Dungeon gear to start the raid. It's the later tiers that are the problem.

  15. #175
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    I think they'll bring back the "easy dungeons for gear" thing. On Timeless Isle, they gave you 496 gear for beating some mobs, which is even easier than doing some heroic dungeons. Looks like they're willing to give you good, raid-ready gear for no effort, might as well do that for dungeons at some point
    I had better than "raid ready" in those easy dungeons. I was literally getting normal raid equivalent tier gear. It was brilliant. I could and did say FUCK raiding and still was being awarded as good as raiders. That's casual friendly.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #176
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    It's called Normal and Heroic raids. If your casual you can still do them, just don't use casual as an excuse for being bad. If on the other hand you are actually just terrible at the game and can't do Normal or Heroic then that's a problem with you, not the game.
    Yeah, but people don't seem to want to do those, it would seem. People don't even try to do them. Like... ever. Don't you see the problem there, or are you going to hold your fingers in your ears and ignore it?

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I had better than "raid ready" in those easy dungeons. I was literally getting normal raid equivelant tier gear. It was brilliant. I could and did say FUCK raiding.
    ...then why would you need/want "raid equivalent" gear?

  18. #178
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    ...then why would you need/want "raid equivalent" gear?
    Irrelevant. I didn't need the gear to kill mephisto or baal in d2 but I still wanted the chase. For some folks it's just about the skinner box, for some people it's just about character progression without the "end" of raiding.

    I could also ask why you think you need the gear? Or why you think gear should have bearing or relevance in end game raiding at all? Wouldn't it be far better to simple have end game raids at higher lvls scale like challenge modes? I was always told skill was the most important thing and gear was largely irellevant. Come to find this apparently isn't the case and everyone needs the gear now..
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #179
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    That's the thing: it was the INITIAL tier. That's how ALL initial tiers work: you use Heroic Dungeon gear to start the raid. It's the later tiers that are the problem.
    Well, suffice to say several people didn't actually do much in normal mode raids right off the bat; as I said, they resolved to complain that they needed these barely-an-upgrade epics from reps in order to do the raids.

    At any rate, if you introduce swift catch-up mechanics, then you're just going to run into that always present crowd of "THEY'RE ROLLING OVER MY RAIDING ACCOMPLISHMENTS BY DOING SOME SHITTY DUNGEONS! AFDSJFLSDKJFLSD:KJF!" tryhard raiders.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
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  20. #180
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemposs View Post
    I think a lot of MMOs fell for that tendency. As stated above gaming changed, if MMOs stay behind they'll dwindle to a far smaller market.

    Example: Boring grinding rep by killing 10.000 boars, fuck it I'll go play LoL or CoD, instant action and enjoyment.
    Exactly this. Most people can get that "carrot on a stick" thrill with most any other multiplayer game now. Without the monthly fee. Without having to deal with people. Without having to deal with a lot of the baggage of MMOs (Forced grouping to "see" things, being judged by others and letting them decide if you're allowed to touch parts of the game or not, and so forth. I think people really, really underestimate exactly what's going on.)

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