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  1. #401
    aspire to do something lol?

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Yes, but...

    -Classic covered 60 levels
    -Classic started with you being poor and no economy, getting money was hard
    -Classic didn't allow you to even ride for 40 levels
    -Classic didn't have fansite spoiling everything on day 1

    Apples and oranges..already in TBC, players raced to lv 70 in 24 hrs or so.

    Can't do much about fansites spoiling things. Although they can stop being so dependent on public test realms. And put some cease-and-desists on dataminers. People are still going to datamine, but with official sites not allowed to show the results, and visitors being so lazy, very few people will actually go the extra mile to find an "underground" datamine-results-displaying site, and even those sites can be similarly treated, since just like most people that want to visit them, so can Blizzard's lawyers find them. They could also ban some add-ons that pretty much play the game for you, and impose a delay on fansites releasing guides for recent content. Too much work, I know, but if they care there are available steps.

    Of course, there are no more 60 levels to cover, but that does not mean that there cannot be developed an equally large amount of content; which is what matters the most in this subject. That is why I am coming back to quantity continuously. They can still develop as many zones, as many campaigns, as many class quests, as much complex quests, and so on. They can actually do better than vanilla; far better. But they don't, because they have gone the instanced content way, which is more convenient, and faster, and has less expenses.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-10-31 at 02:11 PM.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by silver9172 View Post
    Blizz wouldn't care. If all those guilds left the game forever they would simply be replaced. Now, if every non-heroic raiding player left THEN Blizz would scramble to get people back.
    Blizzard wouldn't give a shit if 75 players went on strike, not when their business is to make 7.5 million people happy, and ones personal raiding skill does not factor into making people happy. Blizzard wouldn't even feel the bump of running over those three world first guilds leaving the game. The ideal that 3 world first guilds having the power to make blizzard break seriously makes me wonder about the age of the poster who said that these 3 world first guilds could actually make blizzard change its direction.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharalla View Post
    I don't mind running lfr most of the time. I'm in a guild of primarily friends, some rl some not. I was running a 10 man raid group until recently when we switched to Flex. However... as the 10 man we were doing ToT and were stuck on Council. People got frustrated and wanted to go do Siege, I tried to point out we couldn't even clear ToT how were we going to do in SoO, but they insisted so I said fine we'll go as a flex so more can come with. Now we're stuck on 2nd boss in SoO. I have people that aren't the greatest players in the world, some that are slow to move out of stuff, some that take several dozen tries before they figure out a new mechanic, etc. I can't kick them from the raid because they're friends and I'd lose half my raid if I even thought about it.

    So for people like me (and most of my raiders) lfr is a way for us to see end game content and perhaps pick up some gear that will increase our dps and heals and enable us to possibly just power through so of the mechanics some of the others are having issues with.
    Your problem is the difficulty level. That doesn't mean that LFR has to stay. At least not in it's current form. You can have a Flex raid on a LFR-like difficulty without having to queue and group up with complete strangers and random players. An oQueue-like LFG tool can then replace the old queueing system and we don't have to spam trade chat and we will have a much broader search for players because it's crossrealm.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    The only solution you are offering is to remove LFR, not fix LFR so it works better. Removing LFR does not fix the problem that casuals need content and so long as that content is raid based content then all the resources can be used to make Raids better. The reason Flex can not remove LFR is because not everyone is on a skill level where they would be welcome in a flex and not everyone can dedicate a scheduled amount of time to join a flex. There are a large portion of the player base that fit into these groups and they need something to occupy them and so long as they are consuming sloppy seconds of raid material we raiders continue to get as much raid content as we can handle.
    Yeah.... just go back a few pages and look what I wrote instead of telling me that I am not offering a solution and only want to remove LFR.

    A Flexible raid on a LFR difficulty with an oQueue-like LFG tool can be used exactly the same as LFR if you still want that...
    How is that not a good proposal?
    Last edited by Gilian; 2013-10-31 at 02:15 PM.

  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saffa View Post
    They don't want us playing at all, just farming mats to give to them, and of course paying or subs so they get their new raids. A month strike by casuals would be frightening - a months strike by hardcore pains would be a yawn - who in game would even notice?
    I'm not convinced I like that attitude, but I've no doubt that you're absolutely right; it's casual players who provide the vast, vast majority of the playerbase in this game and it's high-time they stopped being fed reconstituted and watered down "content", just so that Blizzard can justify making rock hard raids from normal up.

    But to the OP's question:

    1) Fix the actual raiding platform; four modes is too much. Downtune normal mode and make it flexible, with heroic only being available on 25-man. The next step is putting up with the almighty din that'd come from 10-man heroic raiders, then three months down the line the raiding game ends up in far healthier shape again because 25-man guilds were salvaged. Leave LFR where it is. Lastly, remove the Thunder/Warforged items, they're not achieving anything.

    2) Drop the size of raids to 9 to 12 bosses per tier, and then ensure that there is at least one dungeon per patch. Scrap challenge modes, make heroic modes truly heroic, and give them rewards equal to LFR (meta-achievements can be used for mounts/mogging gear). Stop, however, with the rail-roaded, twenty minute, 3-boss pieces of shit we've been served up for years and start thinking back to the original Stratholme and Blackrock Spire. THAT is what a dungeon should be, and it forms endgame for casual players. Then, reinstate the dungeon sets of The Burning Crusade such as the Oblivion Raiment and the like so that players can still progress in them.

    3) Overhaul the profession system entirely so that it, too, can be a part of endgame. Alternative Chat recently spoke about this, but professions have been entirely stripped of their depth since mid-Wrath. It sucks. Systems could be put in place for skilled crafters so that they can make a plan, but see it get a bonus if they're particularly skilled (via skill-based profession quests, number of patterns known, etc/etc). Bonuses could include them being already 2/2 upgraded, or simply a higher item level or with more secondary stats. The absolute gold here would be a cool proc. For the love of Jeebus, bring back crafting specializations and make mastery time consuming.

    4) Major lore events need to stop happening in raids. Domination Point was a great example of how to do this, and the new tech for random events on the Timeless Isle make more possibilities land squarely on the table. Reward exploration outside of quest objectives with cool visual content rather than items destined to become vendor materials (but make them repeatable, similar to the fall of the Lich King).

    5) Develop scenarios so that they can be placed earlier in the game and act as proving grounds on the way up. I'd be particularly keen on solo-scenarios that revealed major lore points such as the death of Illidan or the destruction of Yogg-Saron. Players in a "raid" of NPC's can then be taught boss-related mechanics that increase their skill level while helping them to enjoy the rich lore of the game, rather than the dull proving grounds which don't really do much of anything.

    6) For fuck's sake, fix PvP. Stop treating it like a meaningless side game and give the community some respect. Balance it properly with PvP specs rather than trying to shoe-horn every spec into raiding, then make the content more interesting than merely random BG's or a bit of arena. Bring back world PvP zones, and make some more from the earlier game but scale players so that there's no pointless ganking. Then make a set of PvP campaigns so that PvP players can enjoy the sense of progression from the "new content" angle rather than merely farming gear.

    7) Beef up the difficulty of levelling quests and dungeons. For crying out loud it's too easy, too fast and laughably pointless. Failure isn't introduced until level 90 and that's all kinds of wrong. Levels can then be made more meaningful rather than largely forgettable, while also making casual players appreciate the content more. Stop treating new players as if they're droopy-eyed armless children who can't press buttons. They're not.

    8) Lastly, and by no means least, to Blizzard: Stop blaming one side of the community when the other side cries. It's putting people at each other's throat. Take responsibility for bad design decisions rather than blaming an intangible group of people, then hiding behind "we have all the data". Stop assuming everyone wants to raid just because you do, and think about how to provide meaningful content for casual players rather than useless, queued mini-games that have no real impact on a character.

    That's my starter for 10.

  6. #406
    High Overlord MadBloke101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    6) For fuck's sake, fix PvP. Stop treating it like a meaningless side game and give the community some respect. Balance it properly with PvP specs rather than trying to shoe-horn every spec into raiding, then make the content more interesting than merely random BG's or a bit of arena. Bring back world PvP zones, and make some more from the earlier game but scale players so that there's no pointless ganking. Then make a set of PvP campaigns so that PvP players can enjoy the sense of progression from the "new content" angle rather than merely farming gear.
    Whilst slightly off topic - I do agree - and always have done - but imo to fix this PvE and PvP need to be 2 seperate parts of WoW not linked.

    Sorry for the slight side track.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I'm not convinced I like that attitude, but I've no doubt that you're absolutely right; it's casual players who provide the vast, vast majority of the playerbase in this game and it's high-time they stopped being fed reconstituted and watered down "content", just so that Blizzard can justify making rock hard raids from normal up.

    But to the OP's question:

    1) Fix the actual raiding platform; four modes is too much. Downtune normal mode and make it flexible, with heroic only being available on 25-man. The next step is putting up with the almighty din that'd come from 10-man heroic raiders, then three months down the line the raiding game ends up in far healthier shape again because 25-man guilds were salvaged. Leave LFR where it is. Lastly, remove the Thunder/Warforged items, they're not achieving anything.

    2) Drop the size of raids to 9 to 12 bosses per tier, and then ensure that there is at least one dungeon per patch. Scrap challenge modes, make heroic modes truly heroic, and give them rewards equal to LFR (meta-achievements can be used for mounts/mogging gear). Stop, however, with the rail-roaded, twenty minute, 3-boss pieces of shit we've been served up for years and start thinking back to the original Stratholme and Blackrock Spire. THAT is what a dungeon should be, and it forms endgame for casual players. Then, reinstate the dungeon sets of The Burning Crusade such as the Oblivion Raiment and the like so that players can still progress in them.

    3) Overhaul the profession system entirely so that it, too, can be a part of endgame. Alternative Chat recently spoke about this, but professions have been entirely stripped of their depth since mid-Wrath. It sucks. Systems could be put in place for skilled crafters so that they can make a plan, but see it get a bonus if they're particularly skilled (via skill-based profession quests, number of patterns known, etc/etc). Bonuses could include them being already 2/2 upgraded, or simply a higher item level or with more secondary stats. The absolute gold here would be a cool proc. For the love of Jeebus, bring back crafting specializations and make mastery time consuming.

    4) Major lore events need to stop happening in raids. Domination Point was a great example of how to do this, and the new tech for random events on the Timeless Isle make more possibilities land squarely on the table. Reward exploration outside of quest objectives with cool visual content rather than items destined to become vendor materials (but make them repeatable, similar to the fall of the Lich King).

    5) Develop scenarios so that they can be placed earlier in the game and act as proving grounds on the way up. I'd be particularly keen on solo-scenarios that revealed major lore points such as the death of Illidan or the destruction of Yogg-Saron. Players in a "raid" of NPC's can then be taught boss-related mechanics that increase their skill level while helping them to enjoy the rich lore of the game, rather than the dull proving grounds which don't really do much of anything.

    6) For fuck's sake, fix PvP. Stop treating it like a meaningless side game and give the community some respect. Balance it properly with PvP specs rather than trying to shoe-horn every spec into raiding, then make the content more interesting than merely random BG's or a bit of arena. Bring back world PvP zones, and make some more from the earlier game but scale players so that there's no pointless ganking. Then make a set of PvP campaigns so that PvP players can enjoy the sense of progression from the "new content" angle rather than merely farming gear.

    That's my starter for 10.
    I can agree on the raiding vision, keeping LFR, making flex the new normal and heroic 25man I would have enabled on raid release. Let people who want heroic the choice to go in off the bat.

    As for dungeons I disagree on some of it. Making dungeons hard is what drove players away in Cata. I would have Heroic dungeons and Champion Dungeons. Champion dungeons would use a flex style system where you queue with a full group and it presents a harder version of the same dungeon with better loot and theres also 2 longer dungeons in this mode. I fully agree on Vanilla/TBC dungeon sets, bring in those with a quest to upgrade them down the line. Challenge modes could remain if they are popular and are accessed as they are now.


    Fully agree on Scenarios and professions. I would also like to see more dungeon drops for professions and quests tied to doing something in said dungeon (like BRD smithing for example for some rare stuff).

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadBloke101 View Post
    Whilst slightly off topic - I do agree - and always have done - but imo to fix this PvE and PvP need to be 2 seperate parts of WoW not linked.

    Sorry for the slight side track.
    It's not really off track; I think it would help the casual player base because it would potentially stop them being so maligned.

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Making dungeons hard is what drove players away in Cata.
    It wasn't; it was the fact there were no other options for gearing up. My dungeon model would have levelling dungeons as now, rename the current heroics to "Level Cap" (where you queue up and farm valor), then have the heroics I described.

    And if people want to queue up for heroics, let them. I hate this "CM's and heroic scenarios are too hard for the queue" shit.

    Let the fucking players decide.

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    I fully agree on Vanilla/TBC dungeon sets, bring in those with a quest to upgrade them down the line. Challenge modes could remain if they are popular and are accessed as they are now.
    Upgradeable dungeon sets is a great idea.

    Tie that in with professions, maybe?

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by MadBloke101 View Post
    Whilst slightly off topic - I do agree - and always have done - but imo to fix this PvE and PvP need to be 2 seperate parts of WoW not linked.

    Sorry for the slight side track.
    Why cant they have a separate "PVP specialization" like how you have tank healer dps. You can have "PVP spec" Yeh it might be tricky to do. But you could have PVP healer spec (whos main purpose is healing/cleansing and all round survival tricks), PVP tank spec (whos focus is flag carrying/objective holding with cc), and pvp dps whos all about burst damage with some cc/mobility.

    Yeh it would be a fair amount of work but it would be far better than trying to balance skills that work in PVE then are hugely overpowered in PVP.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    You haven't done LFR since DS, have you? Tell me how you're going to get through Malkorok, Nazgrim, or Garrosh with everyone parked and spamming 2-button rotations.
    What? Are we playing the same game or are you just clueless? People do this all the time which is why I don't lfr on alts anymore.

  11. #411
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    i think lfr could be signifigantly improved without making any changes at all to the in-game system.

    i think both socially and constructively it could be improved by simply removing the naming and shaming ethos from the forums.

    as it stands the trolls, griefers, ninjas, lazies, bads, and <insert whatever else applies here> are the only ones that benefit from the system.
    untill blizz steps up and ensures some form of personal responsibility returns to what you do in-game nothing will change.

    it has to be the players changing before any improvements to the game will make any difference.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    I think that the "raid power" of raid gear should be decoupled from the outside-the-instance power of gear in general.
    Absolutely. Just like PvP gear has PvP power, raid gear should have Raid Power. Actually, hit rating sort of worked like that, but recently they've been adding lots of non-raid/non-dungeon content that requires hit cap. Personally I wouldn't mind if they lowered all non-raiding mobs to level 90, removed hit rating from all non-raid gear, and made the baseline hit rating for everyone such that they could hit at 100% for level 90 with no hit rating whatsoever. Then raiders can get their hit rating gear and feel more powerful without then coming into non-raid content and decimating everything in sight. It's ridiculous that right now a BiS raider does ever three times more damage than a LFR raider on gear alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
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  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    It's not really off track; I think it would help the casual player base because it would potentially stop them being so maligned.



    It wasn't; it was the fact there were no other options for gearing up. My dungeon model would have levelling dungeons as now, rename the current heroics to "Level Cap" (where you queue up and farm valor), then have the heroics I described.

    And if people want to queue up for heroics, let them. I hate this "CM's and heroic scenarios are too hard for the queue" shit.

    Let the fucking players decide.



    Upgradeable dungeon sets is a great idea.

    Tie that in with professions, maybe?
    I think you and I describe the same thing with dungeons. I just called mine heroics for the easier setting then champion mode for the far more difficult one. Catas dungeon difficulty was that as you say it was the only way to gear up. Because it was hard and LFD people were used to wrath level difficulty only for dungeons.

    I fully agree let people queue up for these things, let people who want "heroics" queue up for those and any higher setting let that go on there. I would probably make the harder ones require you to have a full group similar to flex. It would also make it so people try to form their own groups. But I would not be against full on match making instead for it.

    Professions could certainly tie into it. I can see that you can do it. You have to farm some materials for a portion of the upgrade quest (so say you get 4 set bonus the upgrade quest chain unlocks and you upgrade each item by doing various tasks. Killing bosses SP scenarios. and a profession related upgrade). These materials could then be given to a smith who makes a certain item for your quest that when trade to you, you then use a quest item that merges the items to upgrade.

  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drithien View Post
    I did mention integration. Not merely copying Timeless Isle. it's about the concept, not the present execution. Imagine lots of zones, each with elements from Timeless Isle, like platforming sections, hidden areas, challenging enemies, little useful buffs scattered around in various forms, random-time-based events, etc. It's about the increased interactivity with the game's environment, not waiting for rares to spawn. On the contrary, removing achievements that spoil hidden parts of the game, as well as collecting achievements for the same reason, making spawn timers far more random, rare enemies actually rare; adding some behavioural elements to flora and fauna, would be better in my opinion. I am not wishing for more Timeless Isles. I think that the Timeless Isle was a worthy first step of a up-to-now severely crippled person. Clumsy, not much of a quality step, a near disaster even, but vital and immensely important nonetheless.



    Of course different people like different things; so a raider at heart won't be satisfied much with anything but raiding.However similarly, an adventurer won't get satisfied with anything but adventuring. He/she will participate in raiding, if it is the only thing available, but not happily. The trick is, in my opinion, to offer people, to each group of activities, what they truly want; with each part of the game being equally well developed, in quality and quantity.

    Vanilla, lasted for most casuals for far more than just a couple of months though; due exactly to the quantity of content, not just the type. There were six main campaigns, not just two (and two that are mostly the same in essence, pertaining to the same subject, in similar ways). There were about 38 zones, not just 8. Players had to figure out what to do, they didn't have giant arrows pointing them to places. Wandering the world was actually dangerous;getting close to death or dying was a regular phenomenon, not a sudden recollection of a long forgotten state. Things took time and effort to be accomplished, and that added quite a lot to the longevity of the game. Now,with the excuse of "quality of life improvements" the game plays itself to a great extent; whatever it doesn't do for you it tells you how to do it ("Move away from the front of the fire-breathing dragon when he breaths fire." Ow really? So that was what all that fire in its nostrils and that inhaling move were about huh? Would you look at that!) and it has lost so much of its gaming feel as well as its open world feel. It's like it's filled with comfortable little hubs, to obtain and carry out comfortable little quests about dispatching enemies that pretty much die on their own and collect things that shine like watchtowers, because thinking, trying, failing and trying again, adjusting, searching, interacting in depth, getting challenged and all the others elements of videogames are, for some reason synonymous with forbidden things in an adventuring videogame of all things. Hence why I mentioned quantity. Developing 8-10 zones with extremely guided activities is far less time-consuming and far cheaper than 30+ zones filled with content, that increases even more due to the interaction of the content of one zone with another's.

    There is also the mythical beginner, that for what whatever reason, according to the developers is unable to learn how to play the game,and thus has to be humored through the leveling process by the game feigning to be beaten by him/her. Nevermind the way so many gamers started as... what else but beginners, and slowly, but steadily became increasingly better performing at games. Somehow the gene that allowed people to get better at activities by trying them out, and allowed 7-year olds to be able to play challenging games, has become extinct it seems.

    I do understand the practical limitations of maintaining a genuine open world game. It's just too expensive and time-consuming for most developers, and a really bad time for Blizzard to go about convincing their investors to support such a move now, that the game is declining in profits. But theoreticaly, to me, that is the reason why the game feels so stale:that regardless of the developers intentions/limitations, it is no longer the open world game it was supposed to be and was during vanilla.
    The issue is, is that the game's core demographic has changed from the "we want to explore" type to the "we want end game" type. It's been stated that more than double the amount of current subscribers have ever played wow, so that means at one point within the game's history there was a paradigm shift to push more directed and dynamic content at the sacrifice of free roam readiness in not just Blizzard's point of view, but the rest of the very community you preach for.

    Vanilla appealed to those in the open world, and you could say that it did last a while for a lot of people. Hell it could have lasted them expansions, but when they finally reach level cap and want to do something more in say wotlk, they are met with raiding. The progression to pro-raid and anti-open world is akin only to scale at which the amount of casual players either grew bored with questing or simply wished for something new that was well within their league.

    One could also state that the complexity of "try, fail, try again" has been sapped from the open world and placed within raiding. Never before have boss encounters been so complex or unforgiving, nor have there ever been the shear amount of raiders we have now. And the respects of players being of a much higher average skill level than there ever was in vanilla having access to resources that were never endorsed by blizzard, let alone heard of by a majority. These things we have now trivialize the mystery that might be the game for the sake of convenience because that is how the game was made. The game was made to absorb as much time as possible, and while the intrigue of an open world and discovery can no longer facilitate that, an essence of challenging and intuitive boss encounters can and does.

    Additionally I remember quite the many threads even fairly recently preaching the exact opposite of how the zones work, that there was no over-arching story and it all simply felt thrown together in a hobbled mess of 38 zones. There was no clear villain and what villains you did fight you didn't know why. A shift from a massive amount of "go hear kill this" with vague references that harken back only to those who played the warcraft rpg series is not a good set up for any kind of story telling. Open worldness aside, because even skyrim could pull off open world with an over-arching story that meant something, something vanilla did not in any respect. Each storyline felt all over the place, while amounting to very little. I would definitely place myself among those who'd much rather have the care of a quality story-line over the mess that is a story without meaning.

    Perhaps I am looking too far into this, but I do know one thing for sure, a world of warcraft that was far more open world with much less raiding would simply facilitate a different type of boredom than the current direction. Too many things readily trivialize that notion and what utility won't destroy, repetition will as it does with the current direction.
    There are no worse scum in this world than fascists, rebels and political hypocrites.
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  15. #415
    How did you get from this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    So lfr can stay, i wont ever do it again anyway so it doesnt affect me at all.
    To this:
    Quote Originally Posted by xcureanddisease View Post
    I dont understand what you mean, "LFR was the only way to progress your alt chars" so you opt to remove it completely?
    I think you need to reread that post. He opts to do it but doesn't care if they leave it in the game. In other words, he's rational.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Comparing Apples to Oranges here.

    If 75 heroic raiders, whom the entire world watches and enjoys watching, leave, I agree they will be replaced by the next best thing.

    If 75 casual players left due to LFR being removed, and Flex being dumbed down slightly to be the pug raid, no one would even notice.

    If we're going to assume all casual players will leave if LFR is removed, we have to do the same with heroic/normal raiders.
    If all the Heroic raiders left due to heroic raids being removed, Blizzard would be in a pretty damn bad place. Not just because hardcore players would leave entirely, but because Normal raiders who beat the last boss would then unsub until the next raid patch.

    So I consider it a pretty noticable difference between your argument.
    While I agree that it would be a sad thing to see happen. The reality is

    Say a generous 350k players doing normal mode. If all those leave but you have content for the millions of casual players and they stay subbed that's a better solution than.

    350k stay but you then lose all your other customers. Its raw numbers. One side outweighs the other.

    Normal mode raiders usually take a lot longer to clear content then the heroic level guilds as well. So their content could last a while. Most guilds put that content on farm when clear for a while anyway as well.

  17. #417
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Maybe if they aren't devoted players try don't belong in this type of game...
    i really have seen it all now.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Draahl View Post
    I really hate this new wave of people feeling entitled to things they don't wanna spend time on. If you buy a single player game that is too hard for you, do you whine to the developer that you want your money back because you could not finish the game?
    No one is demanding their money back. When I buy a single player game I have it forever without the need to pay subscription fees. If I get frustrated and quit playing it for three months the company that sold me their game doesn't give a rat's ass because they already took their money and ran. WoW is a subscription-based service, and that's where it differs. If there's nothing left in the game that I enjoy doing I'm free to quit shelling out $15 a month. That's why Blizzard cares. It's not "entitled" to demand content that you can participate in on your schedule for your $15 a month, and it's not "entitled" to unsubscribe when you're no longer enjoying the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draahl View Post
    To me this is all about what i just said, ive had periods in my life when i couldnt raid cause work took all my time. I did not whine about how unfair it was beacuse others had better gear then me or that they could experience more of the game then me. They are suppose to do that if they play more!
    And at those times you either unsubscribed (which is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want you to do) or you continued to shell out $15 for a game you didn't really even play any more (which is just stupid, in my opinion). In the first case Blizzard loses and in the second case you as a player were losing. Why do you want to force Blizzard back into a lose-lose situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draahl View Post
    For me personally wow has become a game where people dont need to learn about their class, to learn boss mechanics or to even be nice to eachother anymore. LFR made all that possible and therefor i dislike LFR in the way its played right now. Im unsure how to fix this, since the community have been leaning on this nut for a while now and i dont think that the casual squad could live without it. And make no mistake, hardcore players need casuals as much as casuals need hardcore players.
    Since when were MMOs supposed to be educational parenting tools? If you want a game like that you can check out Barney's Jungle Friends. That game is even free.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    You don't need to improve when determination will eventually push the boss over.
    You do need to improve if you don't want to spend two per boss every run waiting for determination to build.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  19. #419
    The problem in my mind isn't that looking for raid provides content for people who don't feel the urge to do normal's etc. Its the fact that its a wall to get into normal. Back before Lfr, you could spam heroic's, farm those badges etc and then hop into normal. Now LFR has turned into the entry point.. And its a wall. Why should "Rick" who is a raider leveling an alt he wants to gear up have to play with "Billy" who plays a few hours a week to do looking for raid. This also contributes to a pack mentality, where if "Billy" Is really bad at the game, then other people will feel they only have to perform to the level of "Billy" to not be removed from the group. Now blizzard knows Billy is a bad player but he does pay for the game, so they made it so "Billy" can get gear to still feel accomplished. The only two reasonable fixes I see for this are to either A. Make looking for raid to have a repeated chance to drop gear, Or B. Make heroic instances or scenario's or something with a smaller wall, drop entry level items.

    This has also caused allot of hate on Looking For raid since it is the end of an expansion where most guilds at first glance require a legendary cloak, So what does "Jim" who didn't keep up on the quest line or just re sub do? Do looking for raid every week, get frustrated because he has to climb a HUGE wall to raid normals.

  20. #420
    Titan Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    Seeing these types threads everyday is starting to hinder my enjoyment for wow...i just don't want to play a game where it's community is so steeped in hatred, jealously and so focused on themselves that they fail to see beyond what happens in their own little circle.

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