To people whom want LFR removed: What endgame do you propose for the casual players?

[Ronduwil]

really? because I see lfr players say they see the same content heroic raiders do in lfr all the time. what content does heroic raiders have that lfrs don't? it seems to me we have the same content just different difficulties. So I don't see how heroic changes anything for lfr people. I mean heroic raiders have a harder difficulty of the same thing lfr players see and can work towards..I don't see your argument being anything but a reason to bitch.

So what? Who cares what they say because, not having been in there, they have no clue. So in essence you're mad because some casual player is able to successfully troll you? Let them think what they want. You know the difference in challenge between the two modes and you can choose to overcome it or not as you see fit. Don't let some ignorant boob get the better of you, and don't insist that Blizzard punish the vast majority of players who do LFR for what it is just to satisfy a grudge that you bear against a small population of trolls.

[pallyopness]

So what? Who cares what they say because, not having been in there, they have no clue. So in essence you're mad because some casual player is able to successfully troll you? Let them think what they want. You know the difference in challenge between the two modes and you can choose to overcome it or not as you see fit. Don't let some ignorant boob get the better of you, and don't insist that Blizzard punish the vast majority of players who do LFR for what it is just to satisfy a grudge that you bear against a small population of trolls.

not sure what you are saying here lolol.....I haven't been trolled at all? I never said to punish lfr players....my stance is lfr stays but quit begging for more changes due to lack of skill or desire to get better. it is really that simple.

[Ronduwil]

lol so its just the name as is said before that bugs you...no bitching would happen if lfr was called normal....then you would feel better about yourself. and no this thread doesn't have better alternatives...25 man for heroic only? many of us prefer 10 man heroic raids....why take away 10 man heroics? that makes zero sense, but so does any lfr persons argument so go figure.

The name has nothing to do with it. Saying, "let them run flex," demonstrates a complete inability to understand the who issue. Flex requires about 30-45 minutes to organize, minimum, unless you have a pre-existing schedule set up with your guild. Even so, that assumes that you're already at 530+ ilevel, and that's a pretty tall order for a casual player. With less than that you're looking at 2-3 hours to get into a Flex group via oqueue, and many of those groups fail completely at the first boss. This is not compelling gameplay for a casual player who only has between 45 minutes and an hour and a half of solid gameplay available at hours that are inconsistent with existing raiding guilds'. For these players Flex is just as unattainable as Normal. Flex solves a different problem. It allows those raids who have been held back by unskilled friends and/or family members to experience some form of organized progression again. LFR was too easy for those people and Normal was too hard. Flex is meant to be tuned between those two modes. Do you understand the difference?

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not sure what you are saying here lolol.....I haven't been trolled at all? I never said to punish lfr players....my stance is lfr stays but quit begging for more changes due to lack of skill or desire to get better. it is really that simple.

No one has been begging for more changes. I don't know where that's coming from. The OP set up a hypothetical situation where LFR was gone and then challenged other posters to come up with good alternatives to it. So far the only credible post on this that I've seen is Zellviren's.

[Deleted]

Apologies if this has been adequately been answered previously.
Why is repeatedly running LFR for gear better/more fun than repeatedly running 5 mans for gear?

[DeadmanWalking]

Or you know, find a flex geared healer. I don't care about people without the time/desire to do organised raiding getting epics or even a legendary, just so long as it doesn't mean that normal mode raiders will benefit from doing it, so if you want to optimise your character you don't need to set foot there. I think it's a really good tool for seeing the content that you otherwise wouldn't which it is there for, but having done normal I personally really dislike doing it but sadly there are a few upgrades there for me.

There is an advantage to doing things in a higher tier of challenge, PEFORMANCE. If you had to choose one healer and you had a choice in the guy with a full set of normals, normal tier, legendary cloak, normal trinkets and a guy in the same gear from LFR you would choose the guy in normal, but if you don’t have the guy in normal then the LFR geared guy is still a good enough choice that it won’t drag down your raid.

[Itisamuh]

You didn't see all the complaining about how LFR is forced and mandatory? Remove gear and everything solved.

The game doesn't force anyone to run LFR. LFR isn't required, just like dailies weren't at the start of MoP. The only thing forcing players to do anything is other players. If your guild leader is forcing you to do LFR, or something else you don't want to do, then don't do it and look for a new guild. Don't blame the people who actually do what they enjoy, or the game for letting them.

[Ronduwil]

Apologies if this has been adequately been answered previously.
Why is repeatedly running LFR for gear better/more fun than repeatedly running 5 mans for gear?

It's not. I'll be the first to acknowledge that for many players (including me) it absolutely sucks in comparison. It's only better for the developers at Blizzard because they can concentrate all their resources on creating bosses and architecture for raids instead of having to split them between raids and 5-man dungeons. I don't know why the blame for this is constantly being pinned on casual players.

[Pull My Finger]

Heroic and normal raids should be removed. Almost nobody cares for that stuff, except for a few basement-dwellers that are overall just bad for the community thanks to their unlikeable attitude.

[Deleted]

It's not. I'll be the first to acknowledge that for many players (including me) it absolutely sucks in comparison. It's only better for the developers at Blizzard because they can concentrate all their resources on creating bosses and architecture for raids instead of having to split them between raids and 5-man dungeons. I don't know why the blame for this is constantly being pinned on casual players.

Because a subset of casual players were the ones looking for accessible raids, and an expansion of the LFD system to include raids. Obviously LFR offers very little to raiders who already have all the resources needed to organise raids themselves.
So some casuals demanded LFR, perhaps without realising that it'd have such a negative impact on the number of dungeons.

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Heroic and normal raids should be removed. Almost nobody cares for that stuff, except for a few basement-dwellers that are overall just bad for the community thanks to their unlikeable attitude.

Yes, instead we'd be left with such charming individuals as yourself.
Raiders are generally nice people. We have to be, or we wouldn't be able to spend several hours a week in each other's virtual company.

[Xarnius]

2) The late wrath model:
A highly puggable raid/part of a raid
Dungeons

This could work, but I don't think they could make enough dungeons to sustain people.

The only expansion I actually PvEd in was Wotlk, and since I was casual - couldn't raid late because of school, I PuGed my way up ICC. I for some reason thought the spamming of dungeons was fun(this was when the LFG system was new, so it was interesting to use), and when I think back at it - I liked having 9 or even 24 other people in my PuG, after finally putting a group together - travelling there(FPs OP), and then we'd do the raid, call it and add each other afterwards.

For me, I'd love it if they removed the LFR systems & made PuGs more popular. It's a really good way of making new friends, AND clearing the content only about a patch behind.(With LFR you can stay up to date, but it's so lame.. I hate the environment in LFRs. There aren't trolls in my experience, but it's not really social at all).

[Ronduwil]

Because a subset of casual players were the ones looking for accessible raids, and an expansion of the LFD system to include raids. Obviously LFR offers very little to raiders who already have all the resources needed to organise raids themselves.
So some casuals demanded LFR, perhaps without realising that it'd have such a negative impact on the number of dungeons.

You'll have to refresh my memory because I used to browse the Blizzard forums all the time and do not recall ever seeing anyone during Cataclysm say, "Please introduce a random queue for raids so that I can spend three hours wiping on a single boss again. I just could not get enough of that action in the 'starter' and troll heroics!"

[Grogo]

No more heroic raids, one raid fits all but keep a learning to raid for those that just want to experience and learn, they can decide if they want to get into the true spirit of raiding or not.

The model that worked best raid wise was Burning Crusade model. You had no gimmicky heroic versions, they just got progressively difficult. Not just the same boss again with a new ability added. So the first dungeon raid could be a LFR, as a casual player raids should not be designed for them really. If you want to raid then raid, otherwise do something else.

I really believe you can raid and quite easily if you are casual. I think it really is a cop out for most, not all, but the majority of the casuals.

What really needs to happen is that the other parts of the MMO need to be enhanced and leave the raiding to ..well...raiders.

So enhance PvP, make it matter, make it really matter in the world. Give them better 5 mans with long goals to achieve. Chances to get a nice legendary through 5 man and solo content in an epic quest. They need a time sinc for themselves and ones that are engaging.

Create something that makes them equal partners with raiders and one group relies on the other which brings them together on equal terms and respect.

[DeadmanWalking]

The name has nothing to do with it. Saying, "let them run flex," demonstrates a complete inability to understand the who issue. Flex requires about 30-45 minutes to organize, minimum, unless you have a pre-existing schedule set up with your guild. Even so, that assumes that you're already at 530+ ilevel, and that's a pretty tall order for a casual player. With less than that you're looking at 2-3 hours to get into a Flex group via oqueue, and many of those groups fail completely at the first boss. This is not compelling gameplay for a casual player who only has between 45 minutes and an hour and a half of solid gameplay available at hours that are inconsistent with existing raiding guilds'. For these players Flex is just as unattainable as Normal. Flex solves a different problem. It allows those raids who have been held back by unskilled friends and/or family members to experience some form of organized progression again. LFR was too easy for those people and Normal was too hard. Flex is meant to be tuned between those two modes. Do you understand the difference?

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No one has been begging for more changes. I don't know where that's coming from. The OP set up a hypothetical situation where LFR was gone and then challenged other posters to come up with good alternatives to it. So far the only credible post on this that I've seen is Zellviren's.

Flex was also created for those guilds with 11-24 members that would have to bench 1-14 people until they could get to 25 man size, being benched isn't fun and one person not showing up for raid night and blowing the whole night out for 1-14 people isn't fun either.

[Deleted]

You'll have to refresh my memory because I used to browse the Blizzard forums all the time and do not recall ever seeing anyone during Cataclysm say, "Please introduce a random queue for raids so that I can spend three hours wiping on a single boss again. I just could not get enough of that action in the 'starter' and troll heroics!"

Well perhaps they thought LFR would be easier. But here, 5 seconds of Googlefu at work.
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1991949957

"Make PuG 10 man group = 1 hour shouting in TradeChat + With the HIGH chance that one player left + one Player leave? Raid over. That is cool? NO!
LFD 10 man group = 30 min queque + One player just left? Np just wait for someone to be replaced via LFD function. Cool? YES!
Blizzard, please bring that LFD function for Raids that works as intended. "

[dryankem]

You'll have to refresh my memory because I used to browse the Blizzard forums all the time and do not recall ever seeing anyone during Cataclysm say, "Please introduce a random queue for raids so that I can spend three hours wiping on a single boss again. I just could not get enough of that action in the 'starter' and troll heroics!"

I totally agree with this. Casuals were never begging for LFR (although I'm sure there might have been someone since there is always a cry baby no matter what). Casuals were never begging for their gear to be coloured purple or even to have access to tier sets, but now that BLIZZARD has decided to give these things to casuals then they are going use these options and enjoy it. It would be extremely stupid on Blizzard's behalf to remove something they've decided to give to millions of players because a handful of raiders don't feel special any more.

[DeadmanWalking]

No more heroic raids, one raid fits all but keep a learning to raid for those that just want to experience and learn, they can decide if they want to get into the true spirit of raiding or not.

The model that worked best raid wise was Burning Crusade model. You had no gimmicky heroic versions, they just got progressively difficult. Not just the same boss again with a new ability added. So the first dungeon raid could be a LFR, as a casual player raids should not be designed for them really. If you want to raid then raid, otherwise do something else.

I really believe you can raid and quite easily if you are casual. I think it really is a cop out for most, not all, but the majority of the casuals.

What really needs to happen is that the other parts of the MMO need to be enhanced and leave the raiding to ..well...raiders.

So enhance PvP, make it matter, really matter. Give them better 5 mans with long goals to achieve. They need a time sinc for themselves and ones that are engaging. Create something that makes them equal partners with raiders and one group relies on the other to bring them together.

How do you get to raid if you come back to the game and find you are on a dead server? Blizzard has said that a 5 man dungeon takes almost as long as a raid wing to design and that it would take 2 dungeons a month to keep casuals content. Currently with an LFR system they design 4 wings every 6 months, to get the 2 5 man a month goal they would have to design the equivalent of 12 raid wings in 6 months. If you are sticking with the math that equates to a little more than double the amount of resources they currently put into raid content which gets turned into lfr for casuals.

So where do you suggest Blizzard find double the resouces that raid wings take to keep casuals busy and find the resources to continue to pour out Raids for the raider like you? Your fuzzy math does not add up.

[pallyopness]

Heroic and normal raids should be removed. Almost nobody cares for that stuff, except for a few basement-dwellers that are overall just bad for the community thanks to their unlikeable attitude.

Im not a basement dweller and your attitude is bad for the community.......yet I am good at this game to where I can raid any difficulty. Sorry that I am able to experience everything that you cannot but normal/heroic raids are going no where. Just like flex/lfr are going no where. deal with it. If you don't like challenges or raiding goto any other mmo, a simple concept.

[Grogo]

because a handful of raiders don't feel special any more

Yes of course, that is exactly right. So people do not feel special, we shouldn't ever have that kind of bullshit in a MMO or any other game for that matter. Every one should be treated and rewarded the exact same regardless of effort. I despise people who want to be really good and I especially despise people who expect to be rewarded for doing hard things.

People should all be treated the same regardless of effort, fuck effort, we all pay the same amount. All players should have access to any gear, mounts or titles within game, If some are having issues getting this then Blizzard should make it so they get it easier, like the LFR concept. No one is indeed special. That is such bullshit, no one wants to be special any more except a few egotistical pricks.

[Ronduwil]

Well perhaps they thought LFR would be easier. But here, 5 seconds of Googlefu at work.
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1991949957

So you showed me one guy who started out by whining that his 10-man raid was "downgraded" to a 5-man heroic (so I don't know that you could even call him casual) and then after asking that it be reinstated as a 10-man raid he asked for a LFD feature to go with it. What's you've neglected to point out is the nine "NO!!!" posts that immediately followed it. Here are the highlights from each of these posts:

• how do you expect that will happen in raids. lets say nefarian 10 man i dont see a plate dps volunteer for kiting adds. or ascedant council i dont see randoms quit dps on 27% to wait till the other mob is at the same %. if this comes treu i think it would be a verry big mess.
• Just no. If you put LFD on raids you will get random people from all levels of the game who feel entitled to completing the raid they enter. Therefore will be asking for nerfs, because PuG-s can't handle the complexity of raid encounters at this time due to the lack of organization and the very very diverse skill and preparation of the people you meet already in LFD...
• THE worst idea of all time.
• 0/10
• There are people in this game who would not be able to beat 5 man content without being carried through it EG; DPS who can only deal 5-6k damage with a 15% buff while in full 346 gear. These are the people who you would be raiding with.
• The chances of you getting at least 2 random retards who can't see the supergiant star that's going to hit them in 30 seconds is pretty high when you random 9 other people. You simply will fail the vast majority of any random 10 man raid, in my opinion.
• PUGs do not have Ventrillo. Hence they will fail raids.
• It'd be a massive mess given the co-ordination the fights need being beyond most puglings, i may have worked for WotLK but for cata it isnt possible.
• LFD for raids? no. not atleast this way.

Then there was one guy who was trying to argue that PvP gear was just as good as raiding gear so you can't even take him seriously. Even back then people warned that it would be a crappy idea. If Blizzard was really taking their queues from the forums they wouldn't have bothered with LFR. Let me also point out that as stupid as the idea was, it was still better than the actual implementation in that he was calling for a 10-man instance, not the 25-man zergfest that they implemented.

[Grogo]

How do you get to raid if you come back to the game and find you are on a dead server? Blizzard has said that a 5 man dungeon takes almost as long as a raid wing to design and that it would take 2 dungeons a month to keep casuals content. Currently with an LFR system they design 4 wings every 6 months, to get the 2 5 man a month goal they would have to design the equivalent of 12 raid wings in 6 months. If you are sticking with the math that equates to a little more than double the amount of resources they currently put into raid content which gets turned into lfr for casuals.

So where do you suggest Blizzard find double the resouces that raid wings take to keep casuals busy and find the resources to continue to pour out Raids for the raider like you? Your fuzzy math does not add up.

The answer is simple, they will need to re-allocate resources for the casuals, take some away from raid resources, I am primarily a raider but I would happily have less resources allocated to raids if it would get the casual fan the fuck away from them or more to the point, get rid of LFR.