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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    For one, that's not even on the Blizzard forums. That's someone speculating on this forum, and they weren't even convinced that it was a good idea. They listed some pros:
    Quote Originally Posted by Drachman View Post
    Good side for me, the number one attraction would be the speed of getting a group together. I'm on a pretty low population realm, so if there is one PUG raid for 25 people, most of the time you won't fill another. Being able to search based on where you are in a raid also would be a plus. Say if you wanted to do older content, you could queue for the Vanilla raids with like minded people and do those. Also, you could find people with a lock of less or equal to yours so say if you were looking for a group to only do the Lich King, and 9 other people were in the same situation, bingo. You could also search by Tank, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Healer.
    And acknowledged the cons:
    Quote Originally Posted by Drachman View Post
    Bad side for me, kinda takes away from the whole grouping together week after week to do bosses and kinda devalues the point of raiding guilds. Probably alot more suited to raid content from past or earlier in the current expansions.
    Once again, this was a post by a raider who was complaining about spending too much time finding pugs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Drachman View Post
    I'm on a pretty low population realm, so if there is one PUG raid for 25 people, most of the time you won't fill another. Being able to search based on where you are in a raid also would be a plus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Of course I can't provide the kind of quantitative data you're looking forward, and eventually I'll get tired of providing you with examples.
    You have yet to provide me with a single example of a non-raider who was asking for random raids. Both examples you gave me came from raiders who were frustrated by the difficulty of finding PUGs and/or by old raiding content being recycled as heroic dungeons. This is what you claim to be proving:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Clearly there was a desire among casual players to make raiding more accessible, and from Blizzard's point of view LFR has DEFINITELY achieved that goal.
    I think there is plenty of evidence for the second part of that sentence. Blizzard has stated time and again that that was their intent and that they met that goal. You have yet to show me a desire among casual players to make raiding more accessible. You've shown me a desire among raiders who are annoyed at the ever-growing difficulty of finding raiding pugs. That's been my point all along. LFR was made for the benefit of raiders, not for the benefit of non-raiders.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  2. #542
    Deleted
    I hc raided in wotlk but now my connection is really shitty(and there is no other connection available for me because of the place I live), so lfr is the only way for me to experience the raid/content, even though it is nearly a faceroll. I would be very sad if LFR was removed, because it's the hightlight of my week (yes, I understand if you think that's sad). I pull my best dps, maybe get loot, see the bosses and feel happy. I'd like to raid on heroic again, but as I can't do that with my lags, lfr is a WoW-lifesaver for me. ||Btw why do you want LFR to be removed? You don't like it? don't do it. Don't take away my only option to have fun in WoW. (As I do not do/like PvP)

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I don't even know where that's coming from. When did I say I was jealous or that I hate it? By all means have your 561 gear, but quit claminig that LFR is giving you the same level of gear when it's over 30 ilevels lower.
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    are you even reading my posts in this thread? or just looking to talk shit? because you clearly haven't been reading this thread have you?
    OK. I'll bite. Please explain the meaning of this sentence:
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    you are jealous of other peoples time and skill to do stuff you cannot and therefor you hate it....we got it....now let it go and move on
    How have I given any indication that I'm jealous of or hate your gear or even your raid? I'm not calling for heroics to be removed. That would be JimmyHellfire, and while I've agreed with some of his posts in the past, I do not agree with his posts in this thread. Maybe you're confusing my posts with his.

    As for calling for the removal of content, I present you with this:
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    sorry I don't believe in a society that rewards poor performance. I don't believe in first place trophies for every participant because they tried...
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-10-31 at 08:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  4. #544
    They need to slow everything down. A piece or 2 from running 5 mans over a few days should be a lot. People act like they can't live without LFR even though the game has been without it for the majority of its lifetime.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    They need to slow everything down. A piece or 2 from running 5 mans over a few days should be a lot. People act like they can't live without LFR even though the game has been without it for the majority of its lifetime.
    Not having something for the majority of its lifetime does not mean that people don't like it or that they can not do without it. It's just something you like to say because in your head it sounds really good but ultimately it means nothing.

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    OK. I'll bite. Please explain the meaning of this sentence:

    How have I given any indication that I'm jealous of or hate your gear or even your raid? I'm not calling for heroics to be removed. That would be JimmyHellfire, and while I've agreed with some of his posts in the past, I do not agree with his posts in this thread. Maybe you're confusing my posts with his.
    Due to your replies of shouldn't need to research how to maximize your performance and for more content outside of heroics that cater to very few....it seems pretty obvious that you stand with the people who desire easier normal/heroic raids and with that crowd comes the lack of ability or time to accomplish the harder raids. I'm not bashing at all, I just think it is unfair for others to want more at the expense of ANY player base. If that is not the case then I apologize but that is what I get out of your posts.

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Fine. All heroic raiding guilds quit vs all non-raiders (excluding those who PvP) quit. See what then? See who blizzard tries to bring back with promises of content made for them.

    Every player 13/13 ToT vs every player 0/12 ToT

    Which would Blizzard actually worry about?
    The ones with larger subscriber numbers, because money talks and egos don't.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by KBWarriors View Post
    Then they wouldn't receive raid worthy gear... but that's just my opinion though.



    I see a lot of these idle threats running around on forums but honestly, where will they go? The US market doesn't have any competitors that come close in my opinion. It's kind of why I'm playing nothing at the moment.



    It's amazing whenever I peek over on the WoW forums, there's someone who does 30k DPS in LFR, dies constantly or refuses to look up fights before hand as a tank trying to bash on "elitist jerks". It's not elitist.. you're a tank, know what you're doing before you come here and if you're a DPS, for the love of god doing 30k DPS was what people did in Cataclysm.

    Ah well, the game scope has changed, I really don't get involved with it much anymore nor do I even have an account.
    I am not going look up fight i have a life and WOW is just a game. Stay out of the bad shit read dungeon journal you are fine. I have never seen anyone suck so much they did 30k dps. even my tank OS does 85k with a 510GS and that is not that good.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The ones with larger subscriber numbers, because money talks and egos don't.
    I am pretty sure blizzard still has raids and plenty of other things to do....and subscriptions still. So really....does it matter? Raiders will continue to get raids at this point and for the upcoming expansion whether you like it or not. That is fact. So your hypothetical situation is null and void.

    Like it or not blizzard cares about raiders, just as they care about non raiders. they give both player bases things to do. end of story. They don't need to focus on one OR the other as most would like them to. They focus on all, but nice try thinking one means more than the other to them lol.

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    They need to slow everything down. A piece or 2 from running 5 mans over a few days should be a lot. People act like they can't live without LFR even though the game has been without it for the majority of its lifetime.
    Well in Wrath that was possible because Heroic Dungeons gave two levels of gear: blue and starter purples. So you would run dungeons and rapidly get your blues, but then you could keep running them and gradually acquire a set of starter purples over weeks or even months. Even in BC you had blue heroic dungeon gear with multiple gem slots and even set bonuses. That ended in Cataclysm when Blizzard decided that Heroic Dungeon meant crap blues and the end bosses began dropping the same old crap as all the other bosses, except you also got valor for killing them. They supposedly were rolling back to BC-style gearing, but they forgot to roll back the tier discrepancies from double digits to single digits.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    Due to your replies of shouldn't need to research how to maximize your performance and for more content outside of heroics that cater to very few...
    I'll re-post what I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    The suggestion that we need to "study" to "learn to play" has far larger implications than the examples you gave. Each raid boss is an entirely new game in and of itself. It requires a unique set of skills to be executed in a particular manner, and it requires a minimum of 10 people to do it. I personally do "study" and "learn to play" before raiding, but I'm not silly enough to expect every other WoW player to go that far. Blizzard needs to draw in far more than the number of players who are as enthusiastic about the game as I am to maintain their revenue.
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    it seems pretty obvious that you stand with the people who desire easier normal/heroic raids and with that crowd comes the lack of ability or time to accomplish the harder raids. I'm not bashing at all, I just think it is unfair for others to want more at the expense of ANY player base. If that is not the case then I apologize but that is what I get out of your posts.
    So actually I am one of those players who runs Flex because my guild transferred servers, and I think it's tuned just fine. The guild that I run Flex with is 9/14, so they seem to be progressing OK even though I seem to be out-healing my replacement in my Flex/LFR gear. Then again maybe she's just slacking because it's Flex. I don't care about how hard heroic raids are, but I do think that it's a good business decision on Blizzard's part to start toning down their difficulty after the content has been out for over six months and is about to be made obsolete in six more. That's just because the people who were going to do it pre-nerf have already done so and the remainder have probably hit an insurmountable wall. Rather than have them quit and risk them not coming back it's better to just nerf. They'll be able to faceroll it in a matter of months anyway. Hopefully I've clarified my stance on that.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Not having something for the majority of its lifetime does not mean that people don't like it or that they can not do without it. It's just something you like to say because in your head it sounds really good but ultimately it means nothing.
    It means nothing? It means that WoW was as successful as ever without even the thought of LFR. It means that people did have 'end game' for most people. People only want what they can't have, do when they don't raid at level cap, they think they want to do they demand something like LFR.
    That's why the 'wanting to see the content' excuse is bullshit.
    I think that LFR needs its own separate raid dungeons that aren't end game content. Basically a 25 man 5 man dungeon. People just want their raiding itch scratched.

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Well in Wrath that was possible because Heroic Dungeons gave two levels of gear: blue and starter purples. So you would run dungeons and rapidly get your blues, but then you could keep running them and gradually acquire a set of starter purples over weeks or even months. Even in BC you had blue heroic dungeon gear with multiple gem slots and even set bonuses. That ended in Cataclysm when Blizzard decided that Heroic Dungeon meant crap blues and the end bosses began dropping the same old crap as all the other bosses, except you also got valor for killing them. They supposedly were rolling back to BC-style gearing, but they forgot to roll back the tier discrepancies from double digits to single digits.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I'll re-post what I said:



    So actually I am one of those players who runs Flex because my guild transferred servers, and I think it's tuned just fine. The guild that I run Flex with is 9/14, so they seem to be progressing OK even though I seem to be out-healing my replacement in my Flex/LFR gear. Then again maybe she's just slacking because it's Flex. I don't care about how hard heroic raids are, but I do think that it's a good business decision on Blizzard's part to start toning down their difficulty after the content has been out for over six months and is about to be made obsolete in six more. That's just because the people who were going to do it pre-nerf have already done so and the remainder have probably hit an insurmountable wall. Rather than have them quit and risk them not coming back it's better to just nerf. They'll be able to faceroll it in a matter of months anyway. Hopefully I've clarified my stance on that.
    Well thank you for taking your time to clarify and I apologize for misreading what you were saying. I don't mind nerfed raids after 6 months time at all or when a new tier rolls out. I just don't want the difficulty nerfed at the start or for a bit after....so that those guilds that like challenges can bash at it and feel accomplished after hard work.
    Last edited by pallyopness; 2013-10-31 at 08:49 PM.

  13. #553
    FLEX. FLEX. FLEX. It is absolutely, 100% doable by anyone - most wings are easier and quicker on Flex than in LFR - and it would be better for the game overall if in order to raid players got together with friends and guildmates and did a real raid rather than trudge through an LFR with 25 Internet strangers, many of whom are AFK and few of whom care to actually put any effort into it and instead just rely on stacks of Determination to beat bosses.

    LFR was a mistake. Everything that was changed about raids in Cataclysm was a mistake. I was a big supporter of LFR until 5.4, but Flex has been a reminder of what was lost when the Wrath 10 model was taken out of the game. The game would be better off today if the Wrath 10 model had survived into Cataclysm and LFR had never been added.

    EDIT: Reading some other comments has reminded me of another important point about the Wrath raiding model. Running heroics actually geared you up for at least 10-man raids. In Mists, the only way to gear up for Flex is to run LFR. This needs to be addressed in the next expansion.
    Last edited by hablix; 2013-10-31 at 09:06 PM.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Apologies if this has been adequately been answered previously.
    Why is repeatedly running LFR for gear better/more fun than repeatedly running 5 mans for gear?
    Raids are more fun than 5 man dungeons. With raids, they can do a lot more with the mechanics because they don't have to tune for the absence of multiple classes. That makes for more entertaining encounters in many people's opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by hablix View Post
    FLEX. FLEX. FLEX. It is absolutely, 100% doable by anyone
    Try getting into a Flex group right now with a 496 iLevel. Most Flex groups advertised in chat or oQueue want at least 520, many want 535 or higher and that continues to creep up as the weeks go by. Without LFR, that wouldn't be doable by "anyone". There's a lot of "anyone"s out there who don't have a set schedule or friends who play WoW to carry them through Flex runs and the general population certainly isn't go to do it.
    I had a 530ish iLevel and a legendary cloak within a few hours of the patch going live as did most the people I did Flex runs with that week and since. But I have alts that are still working on their cloaks and started 5.4 with stuff from Heroics and Scenarios beefed up with timeless isle 496 gear that *I* wouldn't have taken on a flex run. They're both now at 540-ish iLevel without the cloak and have no problem getting Flex invites only because I was able to do LFR runs with them to gear them up. Being able to practice the fights in LFR with my alts before moving up was also quite helpful.
    Last edited by Ecwfrk; 2013-10-31 at 09:32 PM.

  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    I think that LFR needs its own separate raid dungeons that aren't end game content. Basically a 25 man 5 man dungeon. People just want their raiding itch scratched.
    That's what LFR probably should be. And for anyone who has called it 'not raiding' that's really how they should think of it. And it doesn't need to be separated from 'real raids' either since it's 'not raiding'. Raids are rooms with things in it. So are dungeons.

    What's bullshit are people who on the one hand say it's not raiding and then turn around and say it's not this or that or you can ignore X or Y as if it suddenly is raiding. It's a separate thing entirely. I agree: it's not raiding. That doesn't mean it should be out of the game.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    It means nothing? It means that WoW was as successful as ever without even the thought of LFR. It means that people did have 'end game' for most people. People only want what they can't have, do when they don't raid at level cap, they think they want to do they demand something like LFR.
    That's why the 'wanting to see the content' excuse is bullshit.
    I think that LFR needs its own separate raid dungeons that aren't end game content. Basically a 25 man 5 man dungeon. People just want their raiding itch scratched.
    They didn't have raid bosses with this many mechanics either, maybe we should go back to the old 'Tank and spank after collecting fire resist gear from tank and spank bosses' mechanics. We didnt have transmog either, maybe we should go back to wearing what ever horrible piece of gear was the latest tier. We didn't have reforges, maybe we should go back to wearing a cloth belt on a paladin because its secondary stats were better for us. We didn't have server transfers, maybe we should go back to rerolling toons from scratch if our server dies. We should put dark portals every where because we had them when the game was successful, we should constantly only fight red skinned orcs because hey, it was big back then.

    If you don't like LFR then don't do it but don't bring this cockamamie hack logic here.

  17. #557
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    You could do flex... or normal. Not sure where this perception comes that you can't do real raiding without spending all day online. I do just fine.

    But apparently you would rather spend your time being screamed at by nerdragers in LFR.

  18. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by hablix View Post
    FLEX. FLEX. FLEX. It is absolutely, 100% doable by anyone...
    Well, no. People that surpass the minimal requirements for LFR are not guaranteed a place in a flex raid. LFR gives everyone that has the patience a guaranteed opportunity at seeing whatever it is they're queued up for as long as they meet the requirements.

    I'm amazed that more people don't see the difference. Or more likely they do and just pretend as if it's the same thing. It's not.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Ecwfrk View Post
    Raids are more fun than 5 man dungeons. With raids, they can do a lot more with the mechanics because they don't have to tune for the absence of multiple classes. That makes for more entertaining encounters in most people's opinion.
    Which is also why I am confused by people trashing on normal raids, say they are forced into LFR, and say how much superior 5man is.

    LFR, you press a button and wait for Q to pop. You click on accept, proceed to play in the instance.

    LFD, you press a button and wait for Q to pop. You click on accept, proceed to play in the instance.

    I understand some people prefer smaller groups the same way as some people prefer larger groups. What I don't get is why some people claim raids are unwanted and dungeons are better. Dungeons are essentially like "5man raids" and raids are essentially like "10/25man dungeons" to me. The 2 are pretty much the same thing inherently.
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  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    It means nothing? It means that WoW was as successful as ever without even the thought of LFR. It means that people did have 'end game' for most people. People only want what they can't have, do when they don't raid at level cap, they think they want to do they demand something like LFR.
    That's why the 'wanting to see the content' excuse is bullshit.
    I think that LFR needs its own separate raid dungeons that aren't end game content. Basically a 25 man 5 man dungeon. People just want their raiding itch scratched.
    How would you feel if Blizz said "Your $15 a month now covers everything up to heroics. Access to raids will now be an additional $15/mo but they will be much, much harder." Would you pony up that extra $15/mo?

    People want to see the content they pay for. They don't want to subsidize content for other people who then insult them for not being as 1337 as they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by tangers58 View Post
    You could do flex... or normal. Not sure where this perception comes that you can't do real raiding without spending all day online. I do just fine.
    What's the /played time at level 90 for your main?

    But apparently you would rather spend your time being screamed at by nerdragers in LFR.
    It's better than being screamed at by a nerdraging guild leader or some RL friend of his.

    I've been in numerous guilds that just fall apart. I've been kicked from a guild because I rolled higher than someone who may or may not have been a chick that the GL was trying to get to cyber with him or something. I've been kicked from a guild because I rolled higher than the GL's best RL friend. 've been raged at, insulted, kicked, berated, etc. for having the gall to put my family over what the guild wants (Sorry, but when my kid has a bad dream and calls for daddy, I don't tell her to wait until we finish this boss).

    I'm not some high school or college kid who knows or can easily find lots of people IRL who play games online. I know a total of 2 other people IRL who play WoW. I also don't have a regular schedule like a student would either and can't schedule a block of several hours, several times a week for raiding. So finding people to raid with isn't easy.

    Someone throwing a fit in LFR everyday is far less annoying than having to find a new guild and establishing myself within it every few months because I have a life outside of WoW.
    Last edited by Ecwfrk; 2013-10-31 at 10:02 PM.

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