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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes often it is very bad. It's not a perfectly good option it's a needless pointless grind coupled with bad rng.

    The simple fact is that if the Burdens of Enternity were any good as an alternative to lfr guess what people would be doing instead of lfr? They aren't clearly. People are still doing lfr quite a bit actually. Now if they gave you a proper justice and valor vendor then yes people skip but guess what? PEOPLE WOULD SKIP LFR and that's a problem when you want to get as many people running your terrible raid content as you can..

    If you give people the option of doing something once a week and then giving them another option that allows them to continuously go back for more chances, naturally people will flock to the latter. It's really no surprise people would still do LFR even with your supposed system. If I run LFR 5 times a week and use coins on every boss, I going to gear up way faster than you. I'm also spending 5x as much time to do it.

    I now have better gear, but that's because I put in effort to do something. Me putting effort into my character does not somehow negate the effort you put into yours. I am now leaps ahead of you, and it's not my problem if you feel "forced" to run lfr 5 times just to keep up. Your desire to maintain equal power levels is not the same as truly being forced into doing lfr. You'd just be better off doing flex or normal.

  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allarius View Post
    It's really no surprise people would still do LFR even with your supposed system.
    No they wouldn't and that's why valor and justice were gutted and that's why we have no more dungeons. If any reward system or content posed as a challenge to LFR then it had to be gutted precisely because the purpose of lfr is to shove and force people into raid content. Ergo any alternatives must be weak or have some serious draw backs so that people will still do lfr.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No they wouldn't and that's why valor and justice were gutted and that's why we have no more dungeons. If any reward system or content posed as a challenge to LFR then it had to be gutted precisely because the purpose of lfr is to shove and force people into raid content. Ergo any alternatives must be weak or have some serious draw backs so that people will still do lfr.

    Your gross oversimplification of things is astounding.

  4. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I understand your point although I don't agree 100% with it. In this case, however, the problem seems to be more general. Post histories are enlightening:



    So there you go. It's more an argument of "Hand me the gear so I can raid at a high level" if I read it right.
    I mean it's the same complaint from WOTLK. People felt forced to run the 10 man content so blizzard made them share rewards and lock outs and what changed now? it's almost a complete about face from them. I can argue that at least in wotlk alternatives existed outside the raid but this situation is even worse. I mean that's the god damn point right there. The developers acknowledge that content without any reward isn't compelling so to make content compelling they put gear behind it. Then they are shocked and dismayed that people feel compelled to do it when they not only designed it to be compelling but to also act as a funnel catching everyone up in it. The guys complaint is perfectly valid, I don't get where this indignation about people feeling forced to run lfr comes from. It's DESIGNED to compel you to do it. Of course it is who would spend all that time and money and man power on that content to just have people say "MEH I don't want in..."

    I don't think sharing the lockout was a good decision then nor do I think it's a good decision now mostly because it'll just divide people up even further but I understand their complaints and so did the developers at one point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Allarius View Post
    Your gross oversimplification of things is astounding.
    I thought you were leaving cause I didn;'t know what I was talking about? what happened?
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-11-02 at 06:40 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #705
    I thought you were leaving cause I didn;'t know what I was talking about? what happened?
    I should apologize for that, it was worded rather poorly. I should have stated that I wasn't going to continue to try to debate it with you, as you aren't grounded in reality, but you specifically referenced something I said so I felt a response was necessary. I guess next time I shouldn't give you any courtesy, lest you throw it in my face in some pathetic attempt to stay in the conversation, while simultaneously disregarding the actual content; guaranteeing that no actual debate happens.

    For the record, I never said I was leaving, just that I wasn't going to continue with you. I actually will be leaving after this post though, respond if you want, I don't care, but I won't read it so if you really want to waste time on a worthless reply than be my guest.

  6. #706
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allarius View Post

    For the record, I never said I was leaving, just that I wasn't going to continue with you. I actually will be leaving after this post though, respond if you want, I don't care, but I won't read it so if you really want to waste time on a worthless reply than be my guest.
    And yet here you are continuing it with me. Maybe this time it will stick?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #707
    You sorry excuse for hardcore players make me sick, there is easier content for people who cannot devote the time or are not skilled enough to do it, they get reduced ilvl loot (vastly). Stop your bitching i am an ex hardcore players, i ran in 4 different raiding guilds a week with varying skill levels and have done heroic content from its inception in wrath to the very end of cataclysm and LFR is one of the greatest things blizzard has implemented into the game, you talk all this shit about casual entitlement when you are the whiny entitled kids. it makes me sick to my core. Casuals keep this game going and paid for. They should have their content, you have yours there is no reason to complain, you are just a whiny entitled brat, and it makes me sad.

    We are better players, we should be setting an example for people in behaviour and play. Not down talking not bitching amongst ourselves like children..
    Last edited by The bearer of truths; 2013-11-02 at 06:50 AM.

  8. #708
    I am not a casual player, I am a customer of Blizzard. If you think that you should be able to do what you want (ie: run Heroic Raids), then by the same principle I should be able to do what I want.

  9. #709
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by robotis View Post
    I just think, also, people just need to realize most people don't do, haven't done, and will likely never do organized activities in this, or any other MMO. It's the nature of the audience, or something. Why do MMOs attract these people? I don't know :x But they do, and they're the majority. So they have to be pleased somehow, right?
    Havn't played much wow lately. Stopped mainly because Wotlk turned it into a mindless grindfest with LFD back in the days and Cata didn't make it better.
    Not to say that LFD wasn't amazing or fun at times but it took away the need to communicate, and that is our biggest problem here....

    I think I was around 13 years old back in the days when I raided SSC with 24 strangers I'd met on the internet. My English were no where near perfected but yet we managed to beat several bosses and enjoy our stay in the raid. What I'm trying to say is that MMO's doesn't attract anti-social people. But Blizzard has given us excuses for never having to speak with anyone in order to experience the game.
    Last edited by mmoc70d167264b; 2013-11-02 at 07:24 AM.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I honestly have a problem finding any of the players he describes. I have never seen any hardcore player say "Waaaa waaa I want to be a special snowflake content is mine!"
    Here you go: Please get rid of LFR
    Downing a boss on normal or heroic doesn't feel special anymore, since anyone can see the same content on faceroll LFR mode. Therefore, it devalues the experience of all normal and heroic raiders.
    And here: This game is not exclusive anymore
    I remember when I would be standing in Ironforge on one of the AH bridge pillars sporting my full Tier 6 / 6.5 and I would have people constantly.. and by constantly i mean ALL THE TIME, would inspect me, ask me questions, asked me how I got the gear, how they could get that type of gear... but now that doesn't happen anymore.
    And here: A solution to LFR's devaluation of raiding
    I would suggest that instead of LFR 25 man raids Blizzard create a 5 man version of the raid that tells the story but only awards rares, higher ilevel each tier of course, but rares instead of epics. This would allow access to the story while retaining the rewards of doing the full difficulty raids.
    Need I go on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    But honestly, they are in such a minority not even worth mentioning.
    I never said they were a significant group. My point was that I have seen more of the "hardcore" players complain about the "devaluation" of their obsolete-the-next-expansion-pack loot than I've seen non-raiders whining about wanting into raids. In fact, I've never seen a non-raider express interest in raiding. That's why they're non-raiders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    most people are actually sensible and neither the hardcore nor LFLoot stereotype are common in my eyes.
    Agreed.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-11-02 at 08:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  11. #711
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I mean it's the same complaint from WOTLK. People felt forced to run the 10 man content so blizzard made them share rewards and lock outs and what changed now? it's almost a complete about face from them.
    The other reason for changing shared lockouts was as an ego boost to the hardcore 10 man raiding guilds, who felt shortchanged by the lack of legendaries and equal quality loot in their easier 10 man version.

  12. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    I would be more than happy to have a dungeon catch up (and new dungeons!) along with LFR so I can login choose which method I want that day and have my fun.
    I mean in principle I agree and I think that's what was in part so successful about the wrath model was that their was lots of choice in the matter. Lot's of avenues to get gear instead of ya know raid or die. I mean it's anecdotal but on weekends if I had spare time I would pug an icc but during weekdays or if i was pressed for time I'd que up for a dungeon and still do quite well in fact almost as good as if I was raiding. It was utterly brilliant and didn't need to be touched. Now that's just all been gutted and I'm not really sure why the developers shot themselves in the foot.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-11-02 at 10:17 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #713
    Mix of vanilla and BC:

    1. Epic 5-mans (like BRD, strat, scholo). I was a casual in vanilla and 5-mans were a great "end-game" for me, I still remember some 6-hour BRD runs. These should be LFD-free and 3-4x larger than the LFD dungeons.

    2. 10 man raids separate from 25 man raids. Similarly to Kara -> ZA progression.

    The problem is that Blizzard has been cutting down heavily on content creation. They want to build a small set of content per patch and force everyone to do that same content. It's cheaper to do (every dollar saved on content creation is direct profit) and it lets them push people through the game on schedule so they can be forced to buy the next xpact when the suits decide it's required for business reasons. The whole thing is no longer a compelling game, it's just a cash cow.

    However, the reality is that WoW will be going f2p. There is no alternative at this point. They have been trying this cost cutting and increased "accessibility" for three xpacs now and the subs have been solidly trending down. It's delusional to think continuing on that path will cause the change in the sub trend. They need to do something drastic, and at this point they've designed themselves into a corner where the only drastic thing they can do is to go f2p.

  14. #714
    Deleted
    I believe WoW is stuck in the middle. They don´t want to make raiding exclusive and they don´t want it to be too easy due to competative gaming.
    They have to pick a direction and stick with that, because middleground will never please both sides.

    SO: Either stick with an attunement situation where dedication and skill actually pays off in the form of unlocking raidcontent and bosses like AQ40 and Hyjal.
    OR: Make raiding centered around "fun" and drop all the bullshit around it.

  15. #715
    It is already here, and it goes by the name of Flex Mode.

    LFR is no longer "needed" per say and I wouldn't mind it being removed next expansion. All it has done is reward laziness and stupidity with loot.

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiift View Post
    OR: Make raiding centered around "fun" and drop all the bullshit around it.
    That's a problem though. You can't trim out the "inconveniences" of raiding without sucking what makes or made raiding so great.
    LFR tried that and it's a sham. The amount of satisfaction someone recieves from LFR simply does not compare to what's possible in a traditional raid environment where players govern themselves.

    Yes, you still have to deal with people and experiences may vary but you need to learn to suck it up if you want something as brilliant as a progression kill that was difficult for your team.

  17. #717
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Yeah, but that is kinda what I am saying. There are a few people with this opinions, but they are a true minority, the first post is a level 1 poster account so probably just a troll. The others are hardly hardcore players either.

    Outside of the occational forum troll, I have never met anyone in-game that genuinly had either the hardcore/casual extreme viewpoints. I know people that have the viewpoint that LFR should be removed or people that think the opposite. But the people I know with either of those standpoints actually got legit arguments to support their way of thinking rather than "hurr durr I want to be special".

    It feels like everytime someone makes a post "I think LFR should be removed due to X, Y and Z", you instantly get 20 replies "ehrmahgehrd, u wanna be special snowflake gtfo!". Even though that players post had nothing to do with being special.

    In the same fashion I see too many Pro LFLoot posts that say "I like LFLoot because A, B and C", only to get the reply "Then unsub you noob casual".

    People are way to settled in the stereotypes of both sides to even read the arguments that both sides have.

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I know you don't care if casuals get something or not and casuals really don't care if you have an opinion or not because LFR is being hard baked into the next expansion as we speak. LFR has been good for raiding because it allowed Blizzard to spend the entire post-leveling resources on only raid content and anyone who wants to see the end of LFR would see the end of their own content. Its just a fact.
    Well, one, Blizzard hasn't been focusing all post-leveling resources on raid content because as far as I can tell, they added new content that wasn't about raiding in between every major raid patch (there are a lot of real casuals who don't give two shits about the raid game, fyi).

    Second, I kind of see LFR as a pandora's box scenario. It isn't good for the game, but obviously it's not going to go away because there is a portion of the playerbase that likes the feature, and would likely leave if it was removed.

    But I don't think that was what this thread was about, and if you don't care about my opinion, consider not responding to it?


    People are way to settled in the stereotypes of both sides to even read the arguments that both sides have.
    Hear hear.
    Last edited by Willias; 2013-11-02 at 03:23 PM.

  19. #719
    How is getting burnt out on a raid tier better than getting burnt out on a dungeon? Hell you get burnt out on it in LFR before you even do a higher difficulty. I'm not saying we should remove LFR but I do think it shouldn't be necessary for the gearing process.

  20. #720
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Maybe if they aren't devoted players try don't belong in this type of game...

    But I would add a lot of hard dungeons. Like hour or two hour long ones. If thu can't do an hour then they can't do LFR now.

    Or put them in proving grounds till they can do average dps. Then flex.


    I know many won’t take the time to read this since it is so long, but it is I see the game now.

    I will say this much since you brought it up. I do better than average dps on all 9 classes/characters I play. That said, I have done proving grounds to at least gold. I see no fun in doing it period and if is the gold standard to do flex or even the LFR for that matter then this will just turn even more people off. For someone that does not want to look a bunch a crap up to run a raid that has little mechanics involved, proving grounds are not going to prove a damn thing. I myself take the time to look up stuff to make myself better.

    I spend hours reading and watching videos of normal/heroic raids and I still only want to run the LFR content. Why, because after the last two xpacs of doing organized raiding, I got very tired of all the bitching and complain that goes on in vent about stupid little crap that has nothing to do with downing a boss. I stopped weekly raiding at the end of cata because of this crap. My best experience raiding with a group was the 25 man guild I belonged to in wrath. We did a lot of screwing around, deliberately pulling wings of trash and what not just to see if we would wipe or not. We were all friends, yes we would have our moments when a few were not so happy, but we were a team. I was very sad when that guild fell apart because many had really life issues to attend too.

    I have yet to find anything remotely similar since then. I even transferred to two other server looking for it. I am sure there is guild like this out there, but I have yet to find it. This game has changed in a lot of ways since wrath, beyond the content of the game. There are a lot of not so nice people play, they have no sense of wanting to work together, they want everything given to them now and bitch and complain to the point the guild itself falls apart.

    They do not want to do for themselves when it comes to farming mats or leveling professions, they want someone to take them by the hand and do everything for them. Sadly these people are called a casual player, no they are lazy trolls that have sucked life out of the game.

    I am a casual player, I do everything now but organized raiding. I have every profession and I farm my own mats and take care of myself. I used to help people do all sort of things from running them through low level dungeons on their alts to giving those mats to level profession. When we still had elite quests, I would help with those. I was a very good steward of the game, I looked out for my friends and fellow guildies or even the person looking for something in trade chat and charging nothing in return for it. From a community standpoint the game has changed in many ways not for the better.

    They did the harder dungeon route in Cata, it failed, even Blizzard acknowledged that and had to tune them down so people could actually spam them on a regular basis.
    Last edited by Apexis; 2013-11-02 at 07:11 PM.

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