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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Lets be honest here. Duality is 14/14 HC and raids 30 hours a week. That's insane IMO. However, raiding 4 hours on Wednesday night and cleaning up Sunday isn't insane.

    Content SHOULD be gated behind skill. Not sure why you think somebody go us terrible should be downing Garrosh, especially since then the encounter has to be tuned to their level of suck.

    Since Wrath raiding is no longer an extraordinary time commitment. It is just scheduling in time to do something once a week. Most people do this with Sports and hobbies anyway, and WoW is a hobby. People cling to the "well it's a video game lol" and while I can't argue with that, their approach is counter to the basis of MMOs.
    Why? Why should content be gated behind skill? Plenty of single-player games don't require skill, when they put in an easy difficulty. They still allow you to beat the game without being good at it. Same with sports: you don't have to be a pro athlete to pick up a basketball and just play with your friends one day

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    Do you have to "work" to play basketball with your friends after work? No, you don't. That's what LFR is.

    It's not like basketball courts are blocked off unless you practice 3 hours every day. What, is there a guard at every single basketball court that doesn't let you in unless you prove to him you practiced 3 hours every day?

    Raiding is like a sport: you don't HAVE to put time into it to do it. You can play sports with your friends who all suck without ever practicing, just for fun. Same with raiding.
    No but if you suck dick at basketball nobody will want you own their team or give you the ball if you are. AKA WoW raiding! Suck less... get more!

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    No the super popular games are geared towards adolescents. But as far as the MMO crowd goes, WoW is falling from them.

    Top selling games like GTAV and CoD don't take aspects from WoW. The problem I see is Blizzard tryin to reach to far and losing players who care about the original basis. MMO for WoW. Intense dungeon crawl for Diablo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Entirely honest, your approach o the game shows you don't belong in an MMO. No it isn't a chore, it is a hobby. But you still put in work. Instant gratification + MMO = mess.

    Don't wanna commit? Don't play an MMO. I hate first person games. I don't expect every FPS to have a very good 3rd person system because they are an FPS. Don't expect an MMO to not need lots of work because it is an MMO
    That makes no sense. MMO is a genre that describes Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games. Nothing in that description requires that an MMO take time or require work and investment. You can easily have an MMO that doesn't and still be an MMO

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    Why? Why should content be gated behind skill? Plenty of single-player games don't require skill, when they put in an easy difficulty. They still allow you to beat the game without being good at it. Same with sports: you don't have to be a pro athlete to pick up a basketball and just play with your friends one day
    You answered your own question. WoW is a team game. If you suck why would anyone want to play with you. Who likes leeches? Yuck!

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    No but if you suck dick at basketball nobody will want you own their team or give you the ball if you are. AKA WoW raiding! Suck less... get more!
    If you play with all people who are bad at basketball, no one cares. If you play with people who don't care about winning or losing, and just play to exercise, they won't care if you suck. That's casual basketball. So there should be casual raiding just like that, and that's LFR

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    Why do people feel raid content should be exclusive only to "good" players?
    Raiding is not or has never been exclusive to anyone. The content is there for everyone, noone is getting special access to it. If you have an inability to kill a boss that is not the same as being denied access to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    Why is it that if you want to go into an instance, fight a big boss that has mechanics, and want to work together with a larger group of people, you HAVE to put in 15 hours a week and be good at the game?
    You dont have to? There are several 1 day raid guilds that have cleared all normal modes. They probably put in less time than anyone doing LFR.
    There are also pugs that clear all content in 1 night.

    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    Why should the new boss models, the new instance architecture, the new art, all be exclusive to people that can put in X amount of time and put out X amount of DPS?
    Why is the arena gear, mounts and titles exclusive to the people that put in x amount of time and put out x amount of wins? Why is daily quest rewards limited to the ones that has the time to do them, why is the loremaster achievement limited to those that have the time to do all quests in all zones, why are the celestial tournament limited to the players that got the time to level up 15+ level 25 pets.

    I could go on and on with everything created in this game. That is how games work, especially subscription games. *Shocking news*, blizzard wants you to spend more time in the game so you spend more time being subbed so they earn more money! */Shocking news*. That is why the best rewards in anything, be it pet battles, questing, pvping, pveing, fishing, cooking archeology etc is given to the players that spend the most time, so that the players that do not want to spend more time doing it.

    The difference is that in raiding you can take the short cut of being good to complete it fast. While being good in say pet battles may help a bit, it is still a long grind to get up all those level 25 pets for pet battles. Completing all normal modes took my guild 7 hours of game time, I have spent 10x that on pet battles and I am not even remotely close to seeing all pet battle content.

    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    I don't really get why raiding, as an activity, needs to be exclusive. I mean, do we require everyone to be 100% physically fit to play any sort of football? We don't, so why should there be prerequisites for engaging in raiding as an activity? I don't see why Normals/Heroics should be the only difficulties of raiding.
    The problem would be that you are comparing raiding which is the most organised form of playing WoW to footbal in loose terms. Organised football do require everyone to be physically fit to play. If you are not fit for raiding, there are a ton of other stuff you can do in WoW, a lot of which is even more time consuming than raiding.


    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    I'm not saying that there should be un-exclusive modes of raiding (I know LFR and Flex exist), I'm asking why people think LFR and Flex should be removed, and that raiding should only be exclusive to "good" players
    While I have seen a lot of people complaining about LFR, me included, and a lot of people want it removed, I am a bit conflicted on the matter myself. I am 100% sure that the current form of LFR needs to be changed in one way or the other, that does not mean that LFR does not have its place. But the naysayers of LFR got some good points and it is fairly obvious that LFR does not only bring positives to the game.

    I have not however seen a single person say that Flex should be removed on these forums. Granted, I dont read through a majority of the threads. Though from what I have been able to see, Flex has had a large consensus of approval. Personally I think Flex is great and awesome. I do miss the old Glory of the X Raider achievement, getting it from flex felt a bit less rewarding and satisfying, but I understand why they changed it to that. Maybe that was a good change I dont know.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #267
    LFR won't go anywhere so I don't think people need to worry about it. Too many of LFR threads lately.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    You answered your own question. WoW is a team game. If you suck why would anyone want to play with you. Who likes leeches? Yuck!
    If you're in an environment where you can suck and still complete the content, you're not a leach. A group of 6 shitty basketball players can still play basketball together and have fun. A group of 25 unskilled players can go into LFR (if Blizz tunes it low enough) and still kill bosses. You don't need to be good at a team game to beat content, if that content is easy enough.

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    That makes no sense. MMO is a genre that describes Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games. Nothing in that description requires that an MMO take time or require work and investment. You can easily have an MMO that doesn't and still be an MMO
    You are right WoW doesn't require investment anymore. So I propose that we remove LFR to get rid of these parasites polluting the game

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    If you play with all people who are bad at basketball, no one cares. If you play with people who don't care about winning or losing, and just play to exercise, they won't care if you suck. That's casual basketball. So there should be casual raiding just like that, and that's LFR
    People in LFR tend to care a lot when people suck. Atleast from my experience. A single wipe and people start pointing fingers.

    There are several casual raiding guilds that I think would fit you better if you are after that experience when nobody cares if you are bad or not.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    Do you have to "work" to play basketball with your friends after work? No, you don't. That's what LFR is.

    It's not like basketball courts are blocked off unless you practice 3 hours every day. What, is there a guard at every single basketball court that doesn't let you in unless you prove to him you practiced 3 hours every day?

    Raiding is like a sport: you don't HAVE to put time into it to do it. You can play sports with your friends who all suck without ever practicing, just for fun. Same with raiding.
    I'm pretty sure a large portion of the obese population would disagree with you there. And I'm not trying to be funny.

    To use your analogy:

    LFR is like being the obese friend who wants to play basketball, but doesn't want to put any effort into losing weight, so he sits by and watches, or plays for 2 minutes before crawling to the bench. He doesn't really play, but he likes the thought of playing, or at least being around people who are playing.

    Flex is like the group of 40something friends who get together every once in a while to get away from their spouses and chat it up. Sure, they play a little basketball, but mainly they just enjoy the time to talk and hang out.

    Normal is like the group of friends who get together a 1-2 nights a week to play basketball because they want to stay fit and they enjoy the game. They like to get together on weekends and watch games together and they stay up on scores and stats for fun.

    HM is like the group of guys who are on a team, train regularly and compete against other teams, whether it be professionaly (WF) or just because it's exciting and challenging for them.

  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    If you're in an environment where you can suck and still complete the content, you're not a leach. A group of 6 shitty basketball players can still play basketball together and have fun. A group of 25 unskilled players can go into LFR (if Blizz tunes it low enough) and still kill bosses. You don't need to be good at a team game to beat content, if that content is easy enough.
    Thankfully, I have minimal association with such players/people. Oh and LFR isn't team oriented <the core problem> so please stop pretending.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    You are right WoW doesn't require investment anymore. So I propose that we remove LFR to get rid of these parasites polluting the game
    What, do you want to do the same with basketball? "If you don't practice 3 hours every day, you can never step onto a court again. You're a leech." "If you don't practice piano 3 hours a day, you should never be able to touch a keyboard ever again."

    Yeah, I think you're beginning to see how irrational you sound

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    If you're in an environment where you can suck and still complete the content, you're not a leach. A group of 6 shitty basketball players can still play basketball together and have fun. A group of 25 unskilled players can go into LFR (if Blizz tunes it low enough) and still kill bosses. You don't need to be good at a team game to beat content, if that content is easy enough.
    Sorry, but according to my experience it's just these no skilled leeches, that are the first ones to yell and kick other low performing players.
    A good player might want try to give some advice to see if the other guy improves, or if he really is a leech.

    So an LFR group where there are only leech type of players would fall apart almost instantly, because even for them some form of effort is required, which the leech will not commit to.

    I don't even want to imagine the raid chat in such a group.

    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie
    Yuck!
    Indeed.

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  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Halicia View Post
    It really is. If you are unavailable on Tuesday evenings, you'll have a tough time finding a raiding guild on my server. (they're already near-extinct)

    "Bad" is really subjective too. If you're on one of those servers with 1-2 raiding guilds, you generally have to be better then their current players to even be considered for replacing someone. Only 1 set of lockouts, so the amount of pugs have dropped significantly, so odds are the group thats been farming the full raid for the past month or two is going to be 'better' then the guy that's only been able to pug the first boss. Flex & LFR help to equalize that a little and give ppl the chance to experience and learn a little without needing to be born knowing everything.
    Bolded for reference. Again, it's not exclusive by the game mechanics by any means. Unless of course, you are saying that SoO locks down it's gates on Tuesdays and doesn't let anyone raid it. This is not a Blizzard issue, again, it's a player based issue. If there's no guilds on your server that fit your timeframe for your schedule, that is your problem. They have also given you the tools to rectify that situation by either re-rolling on another server or tossing some cash for a character transfer.

    Again, it's not exclusive as far as the game goes. It's exclusive due to player created issues like schedules and guild raiding requirements.

    The only thing that is even close to an example of something being exclusive is the ILvL requirement. If you do not meet the stated ILvL for LFR, there is no way within the games mechanics you can get into an LFR. That's exclusive. Player created issues don't make the games content exclusive.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    You are right! Rewards SHOULD be in line with the effort put in. So in this case the gear SoO LFR rewards should be in my humble opinion 516 ilvl, no tier bonus's, and no trinket drops.
    In my humble opinion, which is worth exactly the same as yours, the current gap is plenty enough. Ignore ilvl for a second and just focus on DPS and you'll understand why (clue: Full LFR gear will put you at a few hundred thousand DPS disadvantage compared to full BiS).

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    Legendary is the only thing that does and it pretty weak at that. You either don't raid on a tuesday...or if you don't have a job/class to eat up your time before your tuesday raid....or you get sat/choose to sit a lot. If that is you then maybe LFR is worthwhile....and only if you are near completion. Such that you can complete that phase before your raid week is "over". So yeah not very compelling.
    LEGENDARY IS WEAK? let me get this straigh a huge ilvl cloak which alone is prolly a 5% dps upgrade I really don't care to figure, but the META and Cloak proc atleast on single target accounts for 10-12% of total damage delt. PRETTY WEAK. laughable
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-10-31 at 05:05 PM.

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorkles View Post
    In my humble opinion, which is worth exactly the same as yours, the current gap is plenty enough. Ignore ilvl for a second and just focus on DPS and you'll understand why (clue: Full LFR gear will put you at a few hundred thousand DPS disadvantage compared to full BiS).
    I think it's really only the trinkets and maybe Tier set bonuses that do create incentive in the beginning of the Tier.
    I think it is not unreasonable to request that LFR trinkets are not more powerful that last Tiers HEROIC trinkets that were acquired with A LOT of teamwork.

    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie
    LEGENDARY IS WEAK?
    my dear, he was referring to "weak incentive" since LFR doesn't get you extra sigils/runes/cohones if you clear normal mode / HC.

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  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    LEGENDARY IS WEAK? let me get th is straigh a hUGE ilvl cloak which alone is prolly a 5% dps upgrade I really don't care to figure, but the META and Cloak proc atleast on single target accounts for 10-12% of total damage delt. PRETTY WEAK. No sir your concept of the game and mechanics is the only thing that is weak.

    Sigh. I wasn't talking about the item, because you weren't talking about the item. But the quest drops. You were discussion reason why encouraged to do LFR. Only thing the legendary has to do with LFR is quest drops.

    Man you are certainly great at ignoring context to insert your own meaning into things.
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  20. #280
    Raiding isn't exclusive. If you can manage to put together a group skilled enough, you can kill bosses. Are you upset that people who are more dedicated at something get to enjoy more "spoils". I don't understand what you're complaining about.

    If you want a shot at the big leagues, you have to put in the time to acquire the necessary skills and teamwork.


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