Why should raiding be exclusive?

[RyanEX]

Having completed that grind, I can tell you that they take very little time or effort. They just don't award anything substantial and they are boring as hell. I just did them for a little extra valor after finishing my domination point/shieldwall dailies. This is the same reason very few people do challenge modes. I guarantee that if challenge modes started dropping tier gear and/or BoAs you'd instantly see tons of players spamming for Challenge Mode queues.

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What does this have to do with WoW? WoW is a game. I pay Blizzard $15 a month to entertain me, and I expect to be entertained. I'm not being "handed" anything. I expect that when I log in I'll have something to look forward to, and when that is no longer the case I'm not obligated to maintain a subscription. If I was a gold farmer or something then I would agree that I should put in my time to get paid. Otherwise the burden is on the game to entertain me, not on me to slog through a bunch of boring crap in order to finally get to the good stuff.


That's how I feel when I see someone berating others for not spending time as much time screwing around in a video game as they do.


I wish I could be at the job interview where you show off your raiding experience with the expectation that it will help you find work.

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Getting to 90 is easy because I'm not relying on a minimum of nine other people to show up and know what needs to be done to complete quests. In fact, even without any heirlooms I was able to solo the five-man boss in Shadowmoon Valley at level 66. That having been said, I was glad I didn't need 4 other people to attempt it, and ever gladder that it was only one of many options available to me at that level. There are plenty of things to do in the game until max level. At that point you're forced to either LFR or find nine other people on your schedule who are near your level of competence in order to enjoy yourself. The odds of that happening are pretty low right now, especially on low pop servers.

If people are so lazy at something as simple as a video game how will that translate to their RL mentality.

If you're willing to put in the effort to not be a burden to 9/24 other people in a virtual world I'd think that'd work well for you in RL as well.

[Dukenukem]

That makes sense. If you don't have the time to raid with existing guilds take on the additional burden of managing your own! You're a time management guru.

Well, im laughing at this statement. you say its fine for you to raid 9 hours. If you invest these hours in making recruitment for 1 or 2 weeks you will have 10 man in no time with raid times at your pleasure. If you need guild rules or other management tools you are free to ask or copy almost any Guild in the world.

[Wizgar]

If people are so lazy at something as simple as a video game how will that translate to their RL mentality.

If you're willing to put in the effort to not be a burden to 9/24 other people in a virtual world I'd think that'd work well for you in RL as well.

Oh look, someone who thinks killing dragons in the internet matters.

[Ronduwil]

If people are so lazy at something as simple as a video game how will that translate to their RL mentality.

If I want to limit my play time for an hour a day so that I can spend more time on domestic maintenance, child rearing, paid work, and/or productive projects, I'd say it doesn't translate at all. If you're so busy "earning" virtual gear what are you accomplishing in your real life?

If you're willing to put in the effort to not be a burden to 9/24 other people in a virtual world I'd think that'd work well for you in RL as well.

And that's why raiding is poorly designed. A purely recreational team activity that is pay-to-play should not make its participants feel like anyone is a burden. In bowling leagues, for example, the worst players are given handicaps so that they have a shot at beating the best players on any given day. If WoW was a professional sport I would feel differently, but it's not.

Oddly enough, the opposite philosophy is applied in WoW. The best players are given 'handicaps' so that they can think they're even more awesome than they actually are. It's no wonder that some people get it into their heads that non-raiders are all "baddies."

[cyqu]

It's not exclusive to people with time or skill.

There are like 2day a week guilds and guilds that 9hours a week and less that clear full heroic. Guilds that raid 1 day a week and less then 6hours a week that clear normals

Stop crying.

[Ronduwil]

Well, im laughing at this statement. you say its fine for you to raid 9 hours. If you invest these hours in making recruitment for 1 or 2 weeks you will have 10 man in no time with raid times at your pleasure. If you need guild rules or other management tools you are free to ask or copy almost any Guild in the world.

When did I say it was fine for me to raid nine hours? You don't have to run every wing of LFR every week. If I want to run a guild that's actually going to raid and won't fall apart in under a month I need to recruit nine other players who:

• Have the time to raid
• Have the same 2-4 hour windows
• Consistently show up
• Have the skills required to raid
• Want to raid

Then on top of that I have to manage promotions/demotions, manage the guild vault, maintain a web site and/or forum, and procure a vent/teamspeak/mumble. And then after doing all that stuff, things will happen. Players will get new jobs, others will have babies, and others will simply get bored of the game and quit. So it's not just 1-2 weeks and then cruise control from then on. Is it really worth it for me to go through all that just to raid? For some the answer is yes. For most, the answer is no.

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There are like 2day a week guilds and guilds that 9hours a week and less that clear full heroic. Guilds that raid 1 day a week and less then 6hours a week that clear normals

Yeah. As you can see, we have a whopping one guild on my server that is clearing normal right now: Sentinels Raiding Guilds

I'm not sure if they're a one-day-a-week guild though. Maybe at the end of the expansion you'll have a handful of guilds still running on cruise control like that, but in the meantime just go ahead and unsub, apparently.

[zephid]

I don't see why Normals/Heroics should be the only difficulties of raiding.

They are not the only difficulties, you also have Flex and LFR. And you don't have to be "good at the game" for normal modes, all you need to understand is to not stand in fire etc. I really can't understand how that is too much to ask. Be semi good at your class and don't stand in shit and you'll clear normal mode.

[Ronduwil]

Be semi good at your class and don't stand in shit and you'll clear normal mode.

I'd like to see you clear even Malkorok LFR with that strategy. You're way oversimplifying what it takes to raid these days.

[Dukenukem]

When did I say it was fine for me to raid nine hours? You don't have to run every wing of LFR every week. If I want to run a guild that's actually going to raid and won't fall apart in under a month I need to recruit nine other players who:

• Have the time to raid
• Have the same 2-4 hour windows
• Consistently show up
• Have the skills required to raid
• Want to raid

Then on top of that I have to manage promotions/demotions, manage the guild vault, maintain a web site and/or forum, and procure a vent/teamspeak/mumble. And then after doing all that stuff, things will happen. Players will get new jobs, others will have babies, and others will simply get bored of the game and quit. So it's not just 1-2 weeks and then cruise control from then on. Is it really worth it for me to go through all that just to raid? For some the answer is yes. For most, the answer is no.

well, Im will enjoy answering this.

Time - as mentioned, you can raid as little as 4 hours a week, that is not much to ask.
Same windows - If you dont work shifts is that hard to set a 1 or 2 evenings for raiding with friends? (that you will make, or invite your IRL for start)
Consistently show up - every activity mush have order, without order its just killing time.
Skill - that must be equal through the group. if there is noone to point out that you are bad you wont feel bad. and with raiding you will gain skill over time.
Want to raid - well, you want to raid if you are here arguig that you cant....or you want it simply because others are raiding and you are not

for guild management:
I as GuildMaster have
1st officer - to manage things when Im out, fully capable of running guild without me for infinite time
Recruitment officer - to recruit and manage our raids
Raidleaders(several) - to run raids other than the main 25.
Vault - mostly on autorun, only when someone asks, and if he asks he will get guild Banker rank
VT/TS3 - Im running private server with several TS servers so making guild one is nothing. finding free TS3 in mostly in matter of minutes.
Web - Guildlaunch is superb if you dont have time/money to hire webmaster.
Promotion/demotions - At your will, or our officers. or set a table of things to demote or promote.

Its not 1 or 2 weeks, but they will take the entire time of the raid (as you asemble team to raid with) from there on it is mostly about 1 hour to sort things about last raid and future of the guild.

one thing - if you will run a single raid week, you will probably raid until you decide to quit, raiders come and go, the guild stay (if constructed properly)

Yeah. As you can see, we have a whopping one guild on my server that is clearing normal right now: Sentinels Raiding Guilds

I'm not sure if they're a one-day-a-week guild though. Maybe at the end of the expansion you'll have a handful of guilds still running on cruise control like that, but in the meantime just go ahead and unsub, apparently.

Thats it, Im taking my group to transfer and steal your realm Firsts (not really as we are EU but I would do it if we were US)

[Caladia]

HAVE to put in 15 hours a week

Sure, if you want to be in the top 100 you might need to put in 12-15 hours a week. I put in 6 hours a week raiding and am 13/14 with my guild. We had a few issues early on that we got passed that slowed us down from being 14/14 already, but we'll be there soon.

After that it's all about just being able to play your class and get out of stuff. The problem is that not many people care to get good at the game, or at LEAST decent at it. The raiding in the past has always been available, you just need to drive yourself to go do it.

Now this doesn't mean I'm against the existence of LFR and/or Flex raiding. I think they each have their own place to help people out see the story, or progress in their own way. However, I think there should be more rewards for Normal and Heroic raiding because it does take that little bit extra of actually finding a guild that fits your schedule, with other players that want to do what you do, and get it done. But in absolutely no way does it require you to spend an absorbent amount of time to accomplish.

[wow2011]

When did I say it was fine for me to raid nine hours? You don't have to run every wing of LFR every week. If I want to run a guild that's actually going to raid and won't fall apart in under a month I need to recruit nine other players who:

• Have the time to raid
• Have the same 2-4 hour windows
• Consistently show up
• Have the skills required to raid
• Want to raid

Then on top of that I have to manage promotions/demotions, manage the guild vault, maintain a web site and/or forum, and procure a vent/teamspeak/mumble. And then after doing all that stuff, things will happen. Players will get new jobs, others will have babies, and others will simply get bored of the game and quit. So it's not just 1-2 weeks and then cruise control from then on. Is it really worth it for me to go through all that just to raid? For some the answer is yes. For most, the answer is no.

Totally agree with this as I have led a hardcore progression guild on a 2 night, 3 hour each night schedule guild for Wrath and Cata. I finally gave up at the end of Cata (cancelled sub actually) but found another guild starting up with the same mentality. We merged guilds and MoP has been absolutely the best expansion raiding wise for me.

I truely believe there are more people in my situation where they simply can't/don't want to devote a huge chunk of the week but is able to take 3 hour sessions in 2 nights every week. However, finding guilds like this often require butt load of work browsing endless "bump"s.

I think a big reason why flex/normal/heroic is so exclusive is a lack of a proper guild finding tool + server trasnfer cost. If people know the days/time that they can raid and look for a guild that way, people will have a lot better chance of finding a guild that actually matches their play time. Also, assuming if all servers are connected, then anyone can join guild anywhere thus making flex/normal/heroic raiding a lot more accessible (imo also more enjoyable).

[Glorious Leader]

MMO's don't retain customers with in-game goals that are quickly attainable. Pretty simple.
[/I]

What mmos will or won't do is meaningless. Warcraft calling it self an mmo is a joke because it's success was NEVER IN BEING AN MMO. Warcraft will continue to lose customers so long as the focus of the game is placed on people who have the most time/ability. Warcraft looses customers when it attempts to appeal to those who consume the most while still offering the same 15 bucks a month. All this talk of long term goals is a blind. The long term goals for the casual player were far better in cata and in wotlk motsly because they were actually achievable and were actually pretty good in the whole scheme of things, like relative to everything else going on in the game. This caused people to gnash their teeth about welfare epics and the like but that's what you get when you give casual players goals they can achieve and are relatively good. Now they've just been gutted in favour of giving you more to do. Guess what folks said to that? NO THANK YOU BLIZZARD.

And there's plenty of content exactly for this sort of play.

No their isn't and what we had was gutted to give you more.

The barriers to entry for raiding are there for everyone, yet hundreds of thousands of players overcome them. That isn't exclusive. This game only has a few exclusive aspects I can think of, gladiator titles and world first / server first achievements, as only a very small % of players will ever get them by their nature. Hell, having the Aeonaxx mount is more exclusive than raiding.

And no, you don't have a million dollars, but sitting and bitching about not having it rather than working to attain it isn't getting you any closer.

I would say having a million dollars is a barrier to entry for the millionaires club but that wasn't the point. To say the barriers to entry were overcome by some is true but misses the point entirely They weren't being overcome by any significant number, certainly not enough to justify the enormous cost and expense to create the content and certainly the appeal of the content wasn't enough to push people to want to over come the barriers. It may be that people say they wont but the difference from a development stand point is meaningless, either way people still wouldn't do the content before. It's also true for alot of folk that they can't but either way it's meaningless. The game is exclusive in nature, the nature being that raiding was dog shit that people didn't want to do but since it had all the reward behind it some folks sucked it up and did it. You can want raiding to be more exclusive but your gonna have to deal with the fact that making it more exclusive will force to developers to recognize it's true value in entertaining the player base which is fucking little to none. Oh you made raids super exclusive to the point I won't or can't do them and offered no other content this patch because you put all your time into this raid? Bye blizzard. That scenario is less likely to happen, what would be more likely is that raids would look like DS but offer no gear or story telling. Then they could be exclusive as hell because they be made up of already existing assets and basically cost next to nothing to make since next to nobody would do them.

[Wizgar]

It's not exclusive to people with time or skill.

There are like 2day a week guilds and guilds that 9hours a week and less that clear full heroic. Guilds that raid 1 day a week and less then 6hours a week that clear normals

Stop crying.

And yet nobody but a tiny minority does it anyway. Maybe Blizzard should try focusing on content that people actually give a shit about.

But please, feel free to now blubber about how most WoW players "aren't MMO players" and how Blizzard should be happy to cut them loose and make a few less billions of dollars. Maybe Kotick will read it and decide he hates money.

[nekobaka]

And yet nobody but a tiny minority does it anyway. Maybe Blizzard should try focusing on content that people actually give a shit about.

But please, feel free to now blubber about how most WoW players "aren't MMO players" and how Blizzard should be happy to cut them loose and make a few less billions of dollars. Maybe Kotick will read it and decide he hates money.

Sure as long as a vocal minority stops acting like they speak on behalf of the majority and claim that the majority wants to raid.