Why should raiding be exclusive?

[TJkroz]

Blizzard added more difficulty-levels to raiding now. You donlt have to be in a guild.... just queue up for lfr and flex is available now, you can pug it easily if you have enough players on your server. On mine, i hardly see a flex being formed.

But raiding is open now for everybody at different difficulties.

That's probably because Flex raids are intended to be run by groups of friends and family even cross server. The ppl on your server are probably pug groups through Battle Tag & RealID. Plus, there's Open Raid and OQ addons that assist in making pug groups cross server.

[smartazjb0y]

Think of it this way. LFR is designed for bad casual players (not saying all casuals are bad, I'm saying bad casuals) who don't understand the game or want to put forth any effort to become better at it. You don't have to look for groups, be social and make connections, join a guild, enchant or gem your gear, or even gear correctly in general. You really don't have to play much either, people get by half afk just spamming one button and standing in fire and dying constantly. Why? That's how it's designed because casual players whined about not being able to see content that they didn't put forth any effort to see.

With a difficulty like this, there's no sense of accomplishment. Beating something truly difficult, whether in wow or not, gives a great sense of accomplishment. Now take that truly difficult thing and divide it into 4 different difficulties. Very Easy, Easy, Medium and Hard. Now everyone can see the encounter, but it's watered down because they had to spend time making the same fight 4 times, balancing all 4 versions of this encounter and then doing the same for all of the other encounters in the raid. This isn't even including 10 man.

Saying "I shouldn't have to put forth effort" only cements my opinion that there should be 1 difficulty, and it should be difficult. If you can't hack that difficulty then tough, you don't get to see the content. I say this former hardcore and as a current casual. I'd rather see meaningful content that is rewarding to those who put forth the effort to see and complete it.

You're assuming every person plays WoW for that sense of accomplishment. They don't. I know there are some games that I play just to experience the content and for fun, not to say "I worked really hard in this game and it was meaningful."

And there ARE rewards to those who put forth the effort. Exclusive phases, exclusive bosses, exclusive achievements, exclusive mounts and titles, better gear.

[Chirri]

Why do people feel raid content should be exclusive only to "good" players?

Why is it that if you want to go into an instance, fight a big boss that has mechanics, and want to work together with a larger group of people, you HAVE to put in 15 hours a week and be good at the game?

Why should the new boss models, the new instance architecture, the new art, all be exclusive to people that can put in X amount of time and put out X amount of DPS?

I don't really get why raiding, as an activity, needs to be exclusive. I mean, do we require everyone to be 100% physically fit to play any sort of football? We don't, so why should there be prerequisites for engaging in raiding as an activity? I don't see why Normals/Heroics should be the only difficulties of raiding.

Probably the same reason people feel raid content shouldn't be exclusive only to "good" players. Because people are people, and people are different, and different people want different things.

The only question that matters is - does Blizzard feel raid content should be exclusive only to "good" players? The answer's pretty freaking obvious.

At the very least, 15 hours per week is an amusing exaggeration, at least as far as Normals go. The time put in is entirely dependent on who you, as a player, allow to be your raid leader. If you're upset because you can't play with AWESOMESAUCERS because they insist on 15 hours a week, I'll have to ask why the heck you're not looking over a TepidTea who only wants 4 hours of your time per week and is having a hard time keeping their raid roster full.

I'm pretty sure the people who bitch and whine about LFR in particular don't care who sees the awesome art, architecture and fight mechanics - they just want to keep others from getting purples. Which is to say they're assholes, so why are you taking their trolling to heart?

[m777]

I got it!
Not 10.000.000 but what it stands for.
Right out of school and the jackpot for a fob/position.

So it can happen if opportunity is there.
LFR is opportunity for a lot of players to progress after hitting 90.

What do you suggest for end-game content for people who:
1. don't like raiding
2. don't have scheduled time to be online
3. can't commit to a guild
4. play too less to get to a skill level which is needed to be succesfull in normal or hc

I don't assume you just want them to quit playing/paying after they hit 90 and wait for the next xpac?

if u cant do all this then u cant play the game man wtf ? go play single player games this is MMORPG why should they turn now MMORPGS to singleplayer games

[smartazjb0y]

You're saying you want to enter real raiding without having to put in the effort required? Are you shitting me? It's a fundamental in this world that if you want to rise to the top or become good at anything you have to put in the equivalent effort. I wouldn't have it any other way.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying, why remove LFR or Flex? If people don't want to put in a lot of effort, they can do LFR or Flex. Why not have those options?

[Synstir]

Let me introduce you to my "vision" of wow. It involves removing LFR (but not flex) and heres why.

LFR takes time, flex takes time, normals (and heroics) take time. This game is a time sink. But not everyone has 20+ hours a week to spend on raiding, let alone 20 hours a week on any hobby given people have work and other hobbies. This is a fact.

Lets assume for the sake of argument that nobdy plays alts in raiding. Everyone has a mian and everyone only raid on their main.

Lets also keep the current model in place, where gear is very important and can usually overcompensate for poor skill. So much so that gear that drops from an easier difficulty is still a big enough upgrade that it is worthwhile for the chance at that upgrade. Now lets also assume that on top of the one thing you enjoy (raiding) you also have to do stuff outside of raiding to make your raiding gear better (valor for upgrades). So now instead of doing Normal/heroic just once a week, averaging 6-16 hours of your free time (lets just take 6 because that's what my guild does, and were almost 9/14) and realize that i could be getting upgrades from flex and LFR. So the average LFR would take me 45 min per one for queuing because i am a DPS. That's already 3 hours. Even assuming a 1-shot kill on everything that's another 3 hours. So now i have effectively doubled my playtime in just raiding (all i do). Now that alone isn't why i want LFR to suffer.

I want LFR to suffer becuase people used to want to see end game content and made an effort to raid. Ever since wrath our guild has barley been holding it together. We used to raid 16 horus a week, now we raid 6. We did firefighter back then and we almost always mention it every other week. But what happend? LFR. It allowed us to lose a HUGE pool of raiders becuase "there is no point to raiding when i can see the content on LFR." But these raiders don't HAVE to scale up, but i HAVE to scale down. I have to learn to deal with immature players who literally shouldn't be in a raiding environment. I see people in better gear doing half of what would be expected of a normal player. I hate doing LFR, i really do. And to remain optimal for my guild i (used to) have to run it on a weekly basis. If anything to catch up on the legendary quest when i switched mains for a bit. But they don't even have to try at all to get on my level to see the content.

But what gets me the MOST mad.....is we barely touched heroic ToT, we got 1 boss down and we had maybe 2 thunderforged pieces per person...and what does LFR SoO drop? Gear that is BETTER than what we had. We worked our asses off in ToT in comparison and we get told 6 months later "tough luck, deal with it, its the way the game is now" and now LFR heroes 5 weeks in SoO were out gearing us, utter bullshit.

So yea, i want LFR to burn a painful death. and Flex is MUCH better (mechanics need to be followed and is easier only due to gear) and i wish it would kill off LFR. It wont but i can dream....

I don't get it that lfr drops better gear in the next tier, could be an issue?
hasn't it always been like that, that a new tier will make the old one usseless?

I mean, you can kill Garrosh HC and get great gear.... when I walk into the next xpac i will get a better green item by killing a mob!
You don't have an issue with this and you get pissed that lfr soo drops better gear then the previous tier?

[Jensxo]

Why do people feel raid content should be exclusive only to "good" players?

Why is it that if you want to go into an instance, fight a big boss that has mechanics, and want to work together with a larger group of people, you HAVE to put in 15 hours a week and be good at the game?

Why should the new boss models, the new instance architecture, the new art, all be exclusive to people that can put in X amount of time and put out X amount of DPS?

I don't really get why raiding, as an activity, needs to be exclusive. I mean, do we require everyone to be 100% physically fit to play any sort of football? We don't, so why should there be prerequisites for engaging in raiding as an activity? I don't see why Normals/Heroics should be the only difficulties of raiding.

The top sportsman get to be at the top level - doing things that other people wouldn't normally do - so WHY should u be rewarded for playing in a casual team?

[Niku]

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying, why remove LFR or Flex? If people don't want to put in a lot of effort, they can do LFR or Flex. Why not have those options?

That's not how your opening post comes across at all, to me. But ok, no I don't want LFR or Flex gone.

[smartazjb0y]

That's not how your opening post comes across at all, to me. But ok, no I don't want LFR or Flex gone.

Yeah, lots of people misread it so I edited it.

[Synstir]

if u cant do all this then u cant play the game man wtf ? go play single player games this is MMORPG why should they turn now MMORPGS to singleplayer games

And still a lot of people are playing it! So it is possible to play it.

If you want to play aa mmorpg, as you state it... you should be inclusing players, not excluding them, right? That is the core of a mmorpg, right?
Yet it is you who is excluding players....... go figure.

[Deleted]

Well to be honest if u compare how many people did only lfr and maybe flex, but havent managed to do more than first 2 bosses on normal and the people who cleared atleast normal im sure the ratio will be atleast 2 to 1 in favor to the people who did only LFR and Flex clears.

Why people whine is the good ol' cry i hear since DS - "I want my epic gear to mean something". As we already know the purple colored letters on your armor's name doesnt have the same value anym0re as it did in Vanila, TBC and WotLK. If blizzard fix atleast that i think every LFR hater will be more satisfied than if they remove it. Actualy it all come to this just like the Rolls Royce comparision i read about few post above - When everybody drive "Rolls Royce"/wear "Epic armor" even if its not same quality it just doesnt mater. The name is still the same. The name still mean the same thing. And that the quality is diffrent start losing its mean very very fast

[Belisaurio]

We're not professional athletes, we're paying customers wanting to enjoy a game. We should receive just as much 'attention' as anyone else does in the game and our rewards should be inline with the effort we put in. It gets thrown around a lot but it is true, my sub is worth just as much as your sub.

That's a good quote!!!

[Synstir]

The top sportsman get to be at the top level - doing things that other people wouldn't normally do - so WHY should u be rewarded for playing in a casual team?

Hmmmm... I wouldn't compare this with topsport......
They don't macro everything... so pressing 1 knob for a lot of abilities and moving when dbm says to move, switch target when dbm say to....

Topsport is different than this, really.

A topsporter will get paid for his efforts... we as players donlt get paid... instead: we pay to play this game. That is a big difference.
And guess what: everybody pays the same amount and so is entitled on the same content.

[smartazjb0y]

The top sportsman get to be at the top level - doing things that other people wouldn't normally do - so WHY should u be rewarded for playing in a casual team?

The rewards aren't the same. Pro athletes get money and fame and trophies, casual teams have fun and get less rewards.

[m777]

And still a lot of people are playing it! So it is possible to play it.

If you want to play aa mmorpg, as you state it... you should be inclusing players, not excluding them, right? That is the core of a mmorpg, right?
Yet it is you who is excluding players....... go figure.

its fact since blizzard put LFG tool in wotlk subs never stopped drop and this when the game died when u didn't need to make friends anymore to play you could just log in and play alone and never have any problem its only got worse from there and the subs just kept droping

now if u buy game on singleplayer and u cant beat it on easy what u gonna do ? its the same for wow only wow is MMORPG u have to play with group of people its not meant to be played alone

if u cant beat the raid then the only thing u can do is get better same for any other game out there

[cFortyfive]

And still a lot of people are playing it! So it is possible to play it.

If you want to play aa mmorpg, as you state it... you should be inclusing players, not excluding them, right? That is the core of a mmorpg, right?
Yet it is you who is excluding players....... go figure.

So they better get on it making sure content takes about 10 minutes to complete, requires no key input and is free.

[Terielx1]

just because something is time consuming doesn't mean it isn't mindless and dumbed down, take the 3rd wing of ToT lfr for example, you could finish that fight in LFR with a good 5 people left alive because everyone else died and still kill the boss

[Joey Ray III]

the attitude is remnants of vanilla/tbc era when hardcore raiders where mini-superstars on the servers and were recognizable from miles away. i miss those times too but they ain't coming back. too many thing have changed, people should move on.

[mordale]

That's still a difficulty level. And LFR wings taking hours to complete actually disagrees with you.

Guess you don't know what "difficulty level" means.

the difficulty in LFR doesn't come from the bosses, it comes from the players who don't know how to do the mechanics.
in the last two tiers of LFR blizzard has had to effectively almost "retard-proof" LFR to even get people to clear it.

[furydeath]

Ya gone are the day's of finally killing a boss and going man it feels good to have jsut killed that boss, now its just like meh no loot i can use what's next.