Why should raiding be exclusive?

[anaxie]

That makes no sense. MMO is a genre that describes Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games. Nothing in that description requires that an MMO take time or require work and investment. You can easily have an MMO that doesn't and still be an MMO

You are right WoW doesn't require investment anymore. So I propose that we remove LFR to get rid of these parasites polluting the game

[Deleted]

If you play with all people who are bad at basketball, no one cares. If you play with people who don't care about winning or losing, and just play to exercise, they won't care if you suck. That's casual basketball. So there should be casual raiding just like that, and that's LFR

People in LFR tend to care a lot when people suck. Atleast from my experience. A single wipe and people start pointing fingers.

There are several casual raiding guilds that I think would fit you better if you are after that experience when nobody cares if you are bad or not.

[Louis CK]

Do you have to "work" to play basketball with your friends after work? No, you don't. That's what LFR is.

It's not like basketball courts are blocked off unless you practice 3 hours every day. What, is there a guard at every single basketball court that doesn't let you in unless you prove to him you practiced 3 hours every day?

Raiding is like a sport: you don't HAVE to put time into it to do it. You can play sports with your friends who all suck without ever practicing, just for fun. Same with raiding.

I'm pretty sure a large portion of the obese population would disagree with you there. And I'm not trying to be funny.

To use your analogy:

LFR is like being the obese friend who wants to play basketball, but doesn't want to put any effort into losing weight, so he sits by and watches, or plays for 2 minutes before crawling to the bench. He doesn't really play, but he likes the thought of playing, or at least being around people who are playing.

Flex is like the group of 40something friends who get together every once in a while to get away from their spouses and chat it up. Sure, they play a little basketball, but mainly they just enjoy the time to talk and hang out.

Normal is like the group of friends who get together a 1-2 nights a week to play basketball because they want to stay fit and they enjoy the game. They like to get together on weekends and watch games together and they stay up on scores and stats for fun.

HM is like the group of guys who are on a team, train regularly and compete against other teams, whether it be professionaly (WF) or just because it's exciting and challenging for them.

[anaxie]

If you're in an environment where you can suck and still complete the content, you're not a leach. A group of 6 shitty basketball players can still play basketball together and have fun. A group of 25 unskilled players can go into LFR (if Blizz tunes it low enough) and still kill bosses. You don't need to be good at a team game to beat content, if that content is easy enough.

Thankfully, I have minimal association with such players/people. Oh and LFR isn't team oriented <the core problem> so please stop pretending.

[smartazjb0y]

You are right WoW doesn't require investment anymore. So I propose that we remove LFR to get rid of these parasites polluting the game

What, do you want to do the same with basketball? "If you don't practice 3 hours every day, you can never step onto a court again. You're a leech." "If you don't practice piano 3 hours a day, you should never be able to touch a keyboard ever again."

Yeah, I think you're beginning to see how irrational you sound

[Granyala]

If you're in an environment where you can suck and still complete the content, you're not a leach. A group of 6 shitty basketball players can still play basketball together and have fun. A group of 25 unskilled players can go into LFR (if Blizz tunes it low enough) and still kill bosses. You don't need to be good at a team game to beat content, if that content is easy enough.

Sorry, but according to my experience it's just these no skilled leeches, that are the first ones to yell and kick other low performing players.
A good player might want try to give some advice to see if the other guy improves, or if he really is a leech.

So an LFR group where there are only leech type of players would fall apart almost instantly, because even for them some form of effort is required, which the leech will not commit to.

I don't even want to imagine the raid chat in such a group.

Yuck!

Indeed.

[Ugum]

It really is. If you are unavailable on Tuesday evenings, you'll have a tough time finding a raiding guild on my server. (they're already near-extinct)

"Bad" is really subjective too. If you're on one of those servers with 1-2 raiding guilds, you generally have to be better then their current players to even be considered for replacing someone. Only 1 set of lockouts, so the amount of pugs have dropped significantly, so odds are the group thats been farming the full raid for the past month or two is going to be 'better' then the guy that's only been able to pug the first boss. Flex & LFR help to equalize that a little and give ppl the chance to experience and learn a little without needing to be born knowing everything.

Bolded for reference. Again, it's not exclusive by the game mechanics by any means. Unless of course, you are saying that SoO locks down it's gates on Tuesdays and doesn't let anyone raid it. This is not a Blizzard issue, again, it's a player based issue. If there's no guilds on your server that fit your timeframe for your schedule, that is your problem. They have also given you the tools to rectify that situation by either re-rolling on another server or tossing some cash for a character transfer.

Again, it's not exclusive as far as the game goes. It's exclusive due to player created issues like schedules and guild raiding requirements.

The only thing that is even close to an example of something being exclusive is the ILvL requirement. If you do not meet the stated ILvL for LFR, there is no way within the games mechanics you can get into an LFR. That's exclusive. Player created issues don't make the games content exclusive.

[Snorkles]

You are right! Rewards SHOULD be in line with the effort put in. So in this case the gear SoO LFR rewards should be in my humble opinion 516 ilvl, no tier bonus's, and no trinket drops.

In my humble opinion, which is worth exactly the same as yours, the current gap is plenty enough. Ignore ilvl for a second and just focus on DPS and you'll understand why (clue: Full LFR gear will put you at a few hundred thousand DPS disadvantage compared to full BiS).

[anaxie]

Legendary is the only thing that does and it pretty weak at that. You either don't raid on a tuesday...or if you don't have a job/class to eat up your time before your tuesday raid....or you get sat/choose to sit a lot. If that is you then maybe LFR is worthwhile....and only if you are near completion. Such that you can complete that phase before your raid week is "over". So yeah not very compelling.

LEGENDARY IS WEAK? let me get this straigh a huge ilvl cloak which alone is prolly a 5% dps upgrade I really don't care to figure, but the META and Cloak proc atleast on single target accounts for 10-12% of total damage delt. PRETTY WEAK. laughable

[Granyala]

In my humble opinion, which is worth exactly the same as yours, the current gap is plenty enough. Ignore ilvl for a second and just focus on DPS and you'll understand why (clue: Full LFR gear will put you at a few hundred thousand DPS disadvantage compared to full BiS).

I think it's really only the trinkets and maybe Tier set bonuses that do create incentive in the beginning of the Tier.
I think it is not unreasonable to request that LFR trinkets are not more powerful that last Tiers HEROIC trinkets that were acquired with A LOT of teamwork.

LEGENDARY IS WEAK?

my dear, he was referring to "weak incentive" since LFR doesn't get you extra sigils/runes/cohones if you clear normal mode / HC.

[gamingmuscle]

LEGENDARY IS WEAK? let me get th is straigh a hUGE ilvl cloak which alone is prolly a 5% dps upgrade I really don't care to figure, but the META and Cloak proc atleast on single target accounts for 10-12% of total damage delt. PRETTY WEAK. No sir your concept of the game and mechanics is the only thing that is weak.

Sigh. I wasn't talking about the item, because you weren't talking about the item. But the quest drops. You were discussion reason why encouraged to do LFR. Only thing the legendary has to do with LFR is quest drops.

Man you are certainly great at ignoring context to insert your own meaning into things.

[Vvulf]

Raiding isn't exclusive. If you can manage to put together a group skilled enough, you can kill bosses. Are you upset that people who are more dedicated at something get to enjoy more "spoils". I don't understand what you're complaining about.

If you want a shot at the big leagues, you have to put in the time to acquire the necessary skills and teamwork.

[Loowes]

Sigh. I wasn't talking about the item, because you weren't talking about the item. But the quest drops. You set the context of them term.

Yeah i agreed with ya

[Toiran]

In my view, raiding is and has never, been seen as exclusive, it's always been about your effort and time invested into the game.

This is why some people hate LFR, because now, with almost zero effort, people get to do the things that before LFR, took months for players to gear up for, then clear, then progress heroics, then farm and so on.

I like LFR for allowing the population to see raids, its a major part of the game, it shouldn't be exclusive, but they need to work on things to improve players, even if its forced, like you have to do proving grounds gold, and you have to have gems and enchants or whatever, I don't see the fun in afk'ing, I'd rather play to my best, dps becomes fun when someone else is matching your dps, you race them, you go above them, then drop below, you've got to follow tactics, not died, not be a retard etc all whilst trying to beat your friend or whatever, thats an awesome part that afkers miss.

[anaxie]

=Granyala;23182121
my dear, he was referring to "weak incentive" since LFR doesn't get you extra sigils/runes/cohones if you clear normal mode / HC.

Still gotta do the bosses that are after the one you were progressing on.

[Granyala]

Still gotta do the bosses that are after the one you were progressing on.

Yep.
And gee that sucked... >.<

But I guess that's why he called it "weak" and not "nonexistent".

[gamingmuscle]

Still gotta do the bosses that are after the one you were progressing on.

I guess if your progression on normal is behind the gating of LFR yes that would be another reason to do LFR for the drops. Or if you are on say wing N of progression and you can complete Wings N+ on LFR to complete that phase in between raid nights. Again I don't feel that would bring it from a weak incentive to even a moderate incentive.

[Durandro]

If it shuts the haters up, I could even live with it droping the same gear as it does now, but with blue text ^^

Ditto on that. Ultimately it wouldn't make any real difference, but it would shut up the 'welfare epics' complainers (who ironically don't seem to remember it was a term to describe PvP gear during TBC).

LFR is great. I don't touch it with a bargepole anymore, but the fact it exists means my raiding experience is improved. If it didn't exist, it wouldn't have as much funding/focus and thus would suck more.

[anaxie]

i guess if your progression on normal is behind the gating of lfr yes that would be another reason to do lfr for the drops. Or if you are on say wind n of progression and you can complete wings n+ on lfr to complete that phase in between raid nights. Again i don't feel that would bring it from a weak incentive to even moderate incentive.

h-e-r-o-i-c

[gamingmuscle]

h-e-r-o-i-c

You don't read past the first few words do you? My typo's aren't that bad.