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  1. #21
    I haven't been all that happy with Alter Time since it was added. One of the first times I used it someone popped hero while I had it up and I lost 95% of the buff. The same raid I was killed because I didn't cancel it and got summoned back to my death. It was somewhat more useful in ToT due to the stat gains POST alter time from our 2p but I find myself hating it more and more. Anytime someone else pops lust/hero/time warp when I've just popped my AT I find myself getting really angry, but you have no target for that anger because it's really nobody's fault but your own. I'm sure I've done the same to other mages in the various raid groups I've run with. I wish they'd just give us a decent cooldown that benefits all three specs, possibly in different ways. I'm tired of one of our major CD's harming us by removing other procs but not resetting the ICD and debuffs for them so that they can come back up fresh post AT.

  2. #22
    Using this logic wouldn't it make more sense to NOT use AT until PBoI had procced? As Polarthief says, if it doesn't proc before AT you can almost guarentee it will proc during, so why bother using AT until PBoI has procced then?

  3. #23
    Blademaster Hotpots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchmagoz View Post
    But PBoI has a normal ICD, and isn't PPM, so you will KNOW when it's going to come if you track ICDS (which you absolutely should as a mage) and you shouldn't use AT 2 seconds before it comes off cooldown. (I haven't gotten it yet though.... yay RNG, so maybe the proc takes very long sometimes? idk)
    Guess I should have mentioned that, I will rephrase.
    Use Alter Time ASAP, however wait for PBoI on the 2nd Alter Time as it can proc then, (more likely if the trinket procs later into your opener.)

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Latex View Post
    Using this logic wouldn't it make more sense to NOT use AT until PBoI had procced? As Polarthief says, if it doesn't proc before AT you can almost guarentee it will proc during, so why bother using AT until PBoI has procced then?
    It's a gamble. You have your all other buffs up (meta, ktt, jade, lightweave), also you have BF and two FoF, and maybe even FT. Will you wait for that PBoI? What will you do while you wait?
    I generally fire off one fireblast (or whatever that's called), to see if it procs, and if not then i just AT.

    This is of course valid only for pull. For later ATs I sync it only to PBoI and fire it only after it proc'ed.

  5. #25
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Latex View Post
    Using this logic wouldn't it make more sense to NOT use AT until PBoI had procced? As Polarthief says, if it doesn't proc before AT you can almost guarentee it will proc during, so why bother using AT until PBoI has procced then?
    Which is true, but then you lose out on 6s of Pre-pot, Meta, Toxic Totem/Black Blood, and Jade Spirit, on top of Engineering Gloves cooldown (if you're an ENG) or Lightweave Embroidery (if you're a Tailor), Icy Veins/Arcane Power, and any other external buff such as Tricks of the Trade and/or Heroism/Bloodlust/Time Warp. 6s of ALL OF THAT, for the CHANCE that PBoI procs. I will gladly take the extra 6s personally :X

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Which is true, but then you lose out on 6s of Pre-pot, Meta, Toxic Totem/Black Blood, and Jade Spirit, on top of Engineering Gloves cooldown (if you're an ENG) or Lightweave Embroidery (if you're a Tailor), Icy Veins/Arcane Power, and any other external buff such as Tricks of the Trade and/or Heroism/Bloodlust/Time Warp. 6s of ALL OF THAT, for the CHANCE that PBoI procs. I will gladly take the extra 6s personally :X
    Well ofc, but cancelling AT and then losing that 6 seconds is almost a certainty. Speaking from an arcane pov, I have 4 stacks of Arcane Blast up, 2 missile procs and meta/other trinket/prepot/jade spirit but PBoI hasn't procced yet so say I use AT, PBoI will almost certainly proc during that time (I can count one hand the number of times I've seen PBoI proc after AT has ended) so I cancel AT and lose 6 seconds of everything to prevent losing PBoI proc. Seems kinda crappy.

    Using Fire Blast seems like a decent idea though.

  7. #27
    Just today I learned you can cancelaura Alter Time. I always thought once you popped it you were screwed. Damn I feel stupid.

  8. #28
    I've used AT a zillion times, it has wiped the raid 3 times - which is fewer times than my stupidity has wiped the raid.

    Yes - it is frustrating, especially as an Arcane mage, I'd just be happy if there was a minor glyph to cancel the movement reset, but I still use it all the time.

  9. #29
    Make a separate macro for AP that includes /cancelaura:

    /cancelaura Alter Time
    /cast Arcane Power
    Pay attention during your 6 seconds for powerful procs that will be lost, and if they pop, hit your AP button. AT is removed, you remain in AP, and you keep your proc. You just don't get +6s anymore, but that's a better choice than losing 10 or 20s of a powerful int proc.

    In other circumstances when AP isn't glyphed, the macro will have no additional effect since you are not in AT anyways. Two buttons in one!

  10. #30
    use at whenever its off cd

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Minimemage View Post
    You just don't get +6s anymore, but that's a better choice than losing 10 or 20s of a powerful int proc.
    It's not just +6s, you're at 4 stacks, so you're in a burn stage spamming AB several times (forget about the missiles), and top it off with a barrage without any implications on your mana or your stacks! If you cancel AT midway your'e "stuck" at 70% mana and loosing your second burn after the AT. Not entirely stuck though as you regen while you fire off your missiles, but still not pleasant as the second burn stage is lost. BTW, that's a good reason to keep mana potions for arcane mages
    On the other hand, with frost you most probably already used all your instants, and there's nothing you can do about it.
    Last edited by maizensh; 2013-10-31 at 02:31 PM.

  12. #32
    If you are trying to force a proc by spamming AB, then that behavior will get you to low mana. However if you know that you don't have to force a proc, because you have a handy macro, then there is no reason to burn anything. Make a judgement call when you think you have enough procs, missiles, whatever, and pop AT. I will never use a mana pot instead of a int one.

    If you're lucky you'll already have all your procs before, and if you're unlucky you'll mitigate the bad luck by having a way to not lose anything that procs during AT. And finally if you're really, really "unlucky", the proc won't happen until AT is over .

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Minimemage View Post
    If you are trying to force a proc by spamming AB, then that behavior will get you to low mana. However if you know that you don't have to force a proc, because you have a handy macro, then there is no reason to burn anything. Make a judgement call when you think you have enough procs, missiles, whatever, and pop AT. I will never use a mana pot instead of a int one.

    If you're lucky you'll already have all your procs before, and if you're unlucky you'll mitigate the bad luck by having a way to not lose anything that procs during AT. And finally if you're really, really "unlucky", the proc won't happen until AT is over .
    So losing 6 seconds on everything is better than losing the entirety of PBoI?

    Which again brings me back to my original question, if PBoI hasn't procced, you can be fairly certain it will proc during AT (in my experience it's very, very rare to proc after AT) so wouldn't it make sense to wait until PBoI has procced before using AT? So at least you get the benefit of 6 seconds of PBoI, maybe a few secs on your other procs and BL as well if that was used on the pull? Better to get some benefit than no benefit?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Minimemage View Post
    If you are trying to force a proc by spamming AB, then that behavior will get you to low mana. However if you know that you don't have to force a proc, because you have a handy macro, then there is no reason to burn anything. Make a judgement call when you think you have enough procs, missiles, whatever, and pop AT. I will never use a mana pot instead of a int one.

    If you're lucky you'll already have all your procs before, and if you're unlucky you'll mitigate the bad luck by having a way to not lose anything that procs during AT. And finally if you're really, really "unlucky", the proc won't happen until AT is over .
    I think you misunderstood me. I'm not forcing a proc by ABs. On the contrary, I don't care about the proc at this stage.
    I popped AT + mana gem (with loose mana of course). In 6 seconds I'll be back to full mana with a new mana gem active.
    So basically I can burn mana twice now. Full burn before AT resets, and a few more seconds after the reset. All this time I'm spamming AB, and one barrage in-between. Once the second burn stage is over I fall back to missiles (that's why they are there to begin with), get back to 90%+ and continue normal rotation, with 2/4pc considerations kicking in as I'm already at 4 stacks.

    If I would've canceled AT because of PBoI then I would've gained its duration but lost the burn.

  15. #35
    After all these years, finally someone speaks ^^ I thought I was the only one hating AT so much. Especially because of what it could have been.

    If you removed any interaction with proccs, and just made it be a positional/health/debuff-tool, it would be an amazing, fun tool for PvP and some PvE-encounters, possibly even with a shorter cooldown. The way it is now, mages are entirely to dependant on short burst phases, and thereby inherently very RNG-heavy, with many factors we can't influence. That gets emphasized by AT. Get rid of the spell the way it works now, and make room for a better mage design *flies away to dreamland*

  16. #36
    Not sure what the problem is. Don't AT until PBoI procs, the end.

    Losing 6 seconds on lightweave / jade spirit / totem / meta is still less of a DPS loss than losing almost the entire PBoI proc, since it's not RPPM and won't occur again for quite some time.

    In addition as frost, you will want to AT when at max icicles, since AT restores whatever icicles you had when you snapshotted, so you will be at least five or six casts into the pull by this time.

    Also, using glyphed icy veins as frost, the sheer number of individual spells hitting your target virtually guarantee a proc within a few casts.

    As arcane the proc can be slightly more annoying to gain, but I haven't found it so in my experience. On the fights I play arcane on, I also play with NT, and NT ticks frequently enough for me to get a proc very quickly when I have it on 2-3+ targets.

    I generally parse in the 95th percentile as either spec so what I do obviously works. Rather than complain that the spell operates inconveniently, improve your play.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    Not sure what the problem is. Don't AT until PBoI procs, the end.

    Losing 6 seconds on lightweave / jade spirit / totem / meta is still less of a DPS loss than losing almost the entire PBoI proc, since it's not RPPM and won't occur again for quite some time.

    In addition as frost, you will want to AT when at max icicles, since AT restores whatever icicles you had when you snapshotted, so you will be at least five or six casts into the pull by this time.

    Also, using glyphed icy veins as frost, the sheer number of individual spells hitting your target virtually guarantee a proc within a few casts.

    As arcane the proc can be slightly more annoying to gain, but I haven't found it so in my experience. On the fights I play arcane on, I also play with NT, and NT ticks frequently enough for me to get a proc very quickly when I have it on 2-3+ targets.

    I generally parse in the 95th percentile as either spec so what I do obviously works. Rather than complain that the spell operates inconveniently, improve your play.
    Not sure the bad attitude was really needed, people are more complaining about getting PBoI to proc rather than AT itself, and even then it's so much complaining as it is asking questions.
    Last edited by Latex; 2013-10-31 at 04:58 PM.

  18. #38
    Given the person who started this thread, the attitude is warranted, this is about the 20th or 30th thread he's started complaining about various mage talents, spells, etc.

  19. #39
    Alter Time has a bunch of cool effects, and they mostly work as intended in PvP (where it's also dispellable, lol). But I think it's painful to work out properly in PvE. I wouldn't normally complain because I'm so part-time as a mage that most of the things I find frustrating are just lack of skill, but this move is particularly hard to get more than just a couple spec procs out of without also having it teleport me into fire or something.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Latex View Post
    So losing 6 seconds on everything is better than losing the entirety of PBoI?

    Which again brings me back to my original question, if PBoI hasn't procced, you can be fairly certain it will proc during AT (in my experience it's very, very rare to proc after AT) so wouldn't it make sense to wait until PBoI has procced before using AT? So at least you get the benefit of 6 seconds of PBoI, maybe a few secs on your other procs and BL as well if that was used on the pull? Better to get some benefit than no benefit?
    Maybe its possible to calculate - you could try to estimate it quickly. Jade, Lightweave, Gloves, Totem trinket, etc. you can add up all those the int procs which should be up right away and multiply by your SimC personal scale factor for int to see how much DPS it is, and then multiply by 6 (seconds), which is how much damage its worth to gain it again. You can do the same with 20s worth of PBoI int and see the difference in value. If 20s of PBoI int is > 6s of the other stuff, its worth cancelling AT. On the same vein, you can calculate what 6s of PBoI int alone is worth to see if 6s PBoI > 6s everything else. I think that should get you an answer, which I'm interested in hearing in myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by maizensh View Post
    I think you misunderstood me. I'm not forcing a proc by ABs. On the contrary, I don't care about the proc at this stage.
    I popped AT + mana gem (with loose mana of course). In 6 seconds I'll be back to full mana with a new mana gem active.
    So basically I can burn mana twice now. Full burn before AT resets, and a few more seconds after the reset. All this time I'm spamming AB, and one barrage in-between. Once the second burn stage is over I fall back to missiles (that's why they are there to begin with), get back to 90%+ and continue normal rotation, with 2/4pc considerations kicking in as I'm already at 4 stacks.

    If I would've canceled AT because of PBoI then I would've gained its duration but lost the burn.
    I believe you're overestimating "burn" and ABSpam. If you simc, you can see the DPET priority is Abarr > AM > AB. Simc's action list uses AM before AB in AP, and Abarr before that, all at 4 stack. What that means is that its favoring a normal rotation cycle (meaning clearing stacks) even within AP (and AT), instead of straight AB spam. I don't believe its best to slam AB just because you have a loose mana gem flowing, especially when you are trying not to erase your trinket procs, which are really significant. Finally, once again in SimC, you can see that the mana timeline never dips below ~85%, even at the opener. If you're spamming AB you're going to go way below that, and you're ignoring better spells to cast like AB4ABarr and AB4AM.

    Its a real shame that Kavan is no longer maintaining Rawr's mage module, because that software really told us the best spell cycles to use backed up by his mathematical arcane models. Its good to discuss this stuff though, because it challenges assumptions I might have.

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