Rogues doomed to mediocrity vs Mage/Locks this tier?

[cFortyfive]

Even in the most patchwerk-like fights (iron jug/malkorak) we will probably be beat out, and the gap will just continue to widen as we move towards BiS.

While I actually agree with a couple points...what ? http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Iron_Jugg...100/14/60/p95/ Rogue looks pretty decent to me on juggernaut. Warlock was the best class for this addon. Nothing to argue against that. Still overall rogues have been pretty decent this addon and their presence on heroic content first kills clearly shows that.

[Grayjoy]

So much QQ in this thread.

Rogues are in a fantastic spot. All 3 of our specs are viable, so we can swap to play to the strengths of a specific spec when a fight allows. All 3 specs put out fantastic single target damage. Subtlety (and Combat to a lesser degree) has crazy on-demand burst. Mut has really good AoE. Combat has really good cleave. For flat-out damage, rogues are nowhere near mediocre. If this is your experience, there's a large gap in skill or gear or both.

For utility, we have Smoke Bomb, Feint, Cloak of Shadows, Evasion, CR, 4 utility poisons (Crippling, Mind-Numbing, Paralytic, Leeching), their Shiv effect, Gouge, Cheap Shot, Kidney Shot, Dismantle, Garrote Silence. We have awesome mobility for PvE with Shadowstep/BoS and Sprint. I have used each of those spells on at least one fight in SoO, and many of them on every fight. We also bring 3 buffs: Attack Speed, Magic Damage taken, and Weakened Armor. We also have Tricks of the Trade for an on-demand damage boost or just an on-CD damage boost for the whole encounter. No one else has a toolkit that big.

I'm not saying other classes don't also bring great utility or that they don't bring better numbers than rogues on some fights. All I'm saying is we're useful on every fight and never far behind on the damage meter. That's more than enough to warrant a raid spot.

So, no. Rogues are not doomed to mediocrity.

A thousand times this.

We just got heroic Nazgrim down and that fight really showed me the breath of our utility. Shiv with paralytic is incredible for me as I'm dedicated to the sniper adds all fight, so this poison combined with my other stuns essentially neutralizes them. Smoke bomb is the best thing we've received all expansion, and I use it creatively, dropping it on a tank, on myself, or during the numerous stack phases SoO has.

I run mastery mut, which isn't optimal. But the ONLY person to touch me is our arms warrior, who has recently overtaken me (until i go sub). We're fine, dude. Mechanics aside, we are fine.

[Volitar]

I can't believe the QQ.

[Warstar]

Most fights where a fire mage wins out and tops charts it's because RNGesus smiled upon them for that fight. Mages are good but most of their chart topping is fairly random due to the heavy RNG of fire mages. WoL and such has a very skewed view of mages because you just see these random chart toppers they get and make the assumption that this is what they're doing all the time which is far from that.

Warlocks are OP and there's no way around that. They're the FotM class for the entire expansion with their complete revamping to being the best designed class that goes from ok in the hands of a complete scrub to game breaking in the hands of a skilled player. They got the green fire quest chain which is something that brings even more flavor to the class than any other. Demo seems to have been nerfed pretty big but their other two specs pretty much cover the front page of WoL like leaves during the fall. Warlocks are definitely in the best position of any dps class this entire expansion. They excel in single target, cleave and aoe and they don't really have any down sides. They don't have a trade off like "they're great at 'this' but they really suck at 'that'" and even have a spec like destro which is about as easy as arcane was in cata that anyone can play and do great with even with having very little knowledge of the class. Honestly I hope they get tuned down a bit because obviously the proof is there that they're not just in the lead but ALWAYS in the lead and in some cases in the lead by a huge margin. They don't need a huge nerf just a small one to bring them closer in line with the other dps classes out there.

Rogues are very good though. They have very solid dps out put and personally I'd say that in any fight other than a cleave fight (where warriors pull ahead) that they're probably the strongest melee class out there even just looking at pure dps not counting their utility.

Utility wise they have tricks to help cover for lazy ass hunters getting adds to the tank as well as buffing dps of another raid member. Smoke bomb is a huge raid CD and can be used in a variety of manners. CoS lets us immune things that would kill other raid members and with the AoC it's on such a short CD now it's kinda retarded. Feint is by far the strongest personal defense CD out there and most raid spike damage is in aoe form so we essentially have a shield wall usable any time at a very low cost. The new evasion is so amazing. Can tank a boss for 10/20 seconds giving enough time for a tank to get brezzed or even get a kill if the tank dies at the very end. No more RNG factor where popping evasion either lets you tank or you get your face crit off on the first hit.

Rogues are a very solid asset to any raid. Do you need burst? We have probably the best on demand burst in the game with sub and with that being on a very low CD it's pretty much always up for what you need it for. Single target fight? Very solid dps with all 3 specs. Cleave we have combat and aoe there's assassination. We bring a very strong raid CD with smoke bomb that's very useful in raids. Also we take less damage than any other class out there and can solo a lot of mechanics that would kill other people. Rogues are also the best interrupting/control class in the game. No other class can beat a rogue in that fashion in pve or pvp even though our dps suffers pretty harshly if we need to lock something down no one can do that better than a rogue. Hell the fact that Method took 4 rogues to their world first 25m HC Garrosh kill should be a great sign that rogues are very well desired.

Rogues are tough bastards that live through everything and tend to be the last man standing. They bring excellent dps to the raid and are very successful in every situation. They might not beat warlocks in dps but that goes the same for the 10 other non-warlock classes out there. And there are some fights where rogue's do have the top parse on them so we do have that capability. Rogues are in a very good place right now and I don't see any mediocrity at all. Aside from a fight like Thok where melee in general have a hard time there's really no situation where you'd not want to take rogues to a raid so unless the player is doing something poorly there's no need to be afraid for a raid spot as a rogue.

[Coldkil]

Most of the topic has been covered - including the "standard" QQ calls. Closing the thread.