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  1. #1

    Paragons of the Klaxxi Heroic 25

    It appears some (russian mostly but west eu too) guilds are utilising HoP on Bloodletting cast from Skeer effectively spawning no Bloods at all, this tactic makes the fight a lot easier as you can kill Hisek first and instead kill Skeer either before Locust at the end or when you normally kill Hisek. I have no idea why blizzard yet again allows an abiltity to circumvent one of the important aspects of this encounter, I believe that the majority agrees that killing Hisek first saves so many random deaths due to aim, multi shot or rapid fire.

    This strat does require three tanks as you can't rotate HoP more than a minute and bloodletting happens every 35ish sec. Not to mention that even amber shield completely negates bloodletting cast too, so if you have three paladins until your tank picks up amber shield you won't have to kill skeer at all... I don't think they fixed fiery edge outrange trick either.

    I've noticed quite a few guilds hiding their logs and streams for this boss (hello enraged revolution), do you think it is intended for bloodletting to be completely bypassed by a paladins ability? Personally I think it's BS and should be fixed, but I doubt Blizzard actually cares as it destroys the encounter to a degree where all you have to deal with is Locust and whatever active paragon (all skeer does is melee and nothing else).
    Last edited by srm02; 2013-10-31 at 10:04 PM.

  2. #2
    We have been using this since our first pull, nothing new really.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #3
    I realise it's not new but it makes the encounter a lot easier than and I genuinely don't think it was the intention of Blizzard to make Skeer just a mob that attacks and nothing else with HoP.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by srm02 View Post
    this tactic makes the fight a lot easier
    No. The fight is hard as a whole. If it was simply bloodletting and hisek (P.S. these are both fairly simple imo compared to some other portions of the fight) which made the fight hard people would be past these guys far sooner.

  5. #5
    Well, our guild didn't know this strat and we just killed the boss "as it was supposed to be played". Killing Hisek first is taking out many deadly situations and 1 ability of a single class shouldn't be able to do this. But usually Blizzard tends to fix bosses after it's relevant, for example fixing assembly lines when 20 guilds downed him :3

  6. #6
    The Paragons encounter as a whole is just very buggy and badly implemented, and while this is the first time I've heard of this Skeer shenanigans, there are other buggy/broken mechanics as well. You can outrange the bleed section of Korven's vicious assault. Canned heat apparently temporarily mind controls not only your movements but your abilities as well. A bunch of Iyyokuk's stuff can be outranged, etc.

    Overall I wouldn't say that keeping Skeer up is easy. Even with no bloodletting, Skeer hews for about 500-600k on plate off the bat, right? Leave it up until Korven is dead and you're looking at about 1 mil damage autoattacks - and while there are a ton of deaths to random Hisek stuff, there'll probably be as many wipes due to missing HoP or mistaunts and stuff when you're playing around with keeping Skeer up as compared to just dodging rapidfire.

  7. #7
    Sure what makes the fight hard is dealing with hisek until korven/iyyokuk and then dealing with iyyokuk until around kaztik but just imagine only having to deal with the active paragon and nothing more (skeer is standing still doing some tank damage and locust just whirls around and throws amber). It does make the fight significantly easier, I don't mind the amber shield preventing bloodletting but hop should not since reaching korven with skeer up is not an easy task (assuming no hop)

  8. #8
    The only thing the HoP thing does is let you DPS skeer off the bat without worrying about baiting bloods onto another target, meaning you get in an extra 5-10% damage on him, which is significant for a lot of guilds progressing on him. I agree it's broken in that regard.

    However, I really want to see what guild is using a HoP/amber rotation on 3 tanks to keep skeer up throughout the entire fight. Not that I think it's impossible (there's plenty of ways to do this fight), but dealing with Ka'roz, Kil'ruk, and Skeer all auto attacking for 1 million + damage? There's already plenty of tank deaths with just Kil'ruk and Ka'roz as it is now.

  9. #9
    youtube.com / watch?v=uYyoJBwUlBY

    sorry cant paste links but enjoy

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by srm02 View Post
    I realise it's not new but it makes the encounter a lot easier than and I genuinely don't think it was the intention of Blizzard to make Skeer just a mob that attacks and nothing else with HoP.
    Its a terribly small and insigificant part of the encounter. If you think it makes a big difference you clearly have not done paragons.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #11
    Here's our video of using the tactic:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sevzvf8Q0V4


    For those of you moaning that it makes the fight a ton easier etc - here's the deal: It doesn't. It shifts the difficulty around, and dependant on the strength of your raid, that might make the fight easier. You are basicly trading off having your rogues/ferals/disc priests handle AIM every 45 seconds and the raid "dancing", for extreme tank damage, tank switches and CD/Bop rotations. But as a whole? Lyokuk, Xaril and Locust is still by far the most challenging combo (and then the triage to survive loykuk/manipulator with everything basicly spent). How you deal with the first 4 are barely going to break anything when it's not even the hard part .
    We opted to kill off skeer as nr 4 as you can see (I've heard of guilds leaving him for 7, which seems absolutely fucking nuts to me - as daught noted, he's doing high tank damage off the bat. It's not uncommon for our tanks to get smashed around by 1.3M hits towards the end of his burn. Basicly need a constant hand of sac rotation etc).

    Meanwhile, bloodletting is cast at any point after 30 seconds - the timer is wildly inconsistent. We have had it delay for up to 20 seconds, and up to 5 seconds before the timer you get with Bigwigs shows it as about to be "cast". It is a 1.5 sec cast, which means that along with the fact that the timer is useless, it is extremely hard and annoying to catch, and one slip-up of basicly 7-8 BOP's means a wipe or spending another 30 seconds on the fight (inching closer to enrage).
    This makes it quite inconsistent and very infuriating for a long while, untill the paladins gets the hang of it (prepping korven/locust for the burn? How about having ambers come in and heal them both 35%!)

    So honestly? If people think this makes the fight a shitton easier, feel free. Go and do it, see how much easier it is. If we'd had access to a group of super soakers (rogues, feral druids) or 2 disc priests, then I'd much have prefered leaving Hisek up <___< (hint hint - apply now, garrosh progress ftw!).

    Do note that we aren't hiding anything. You're free to dig up our logs and check the incomming tank damage and the amount of wipes due to tank deaths or bloods going through =P.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-10-31 at 11:20 PM.

  12. #12
    I cant speak for 25 man guilds, but from a 10 man PoV, all that does is save us 3 seconds on the enrage timer, nothing more as we have to kill skeer first anyway.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I cant speak for 25 man guilds, but from a 10 man PoV, all that does is save us 3 seconds on the enrage timer, nothing more as we have to kill skeer first anyway.
    Yea, it's still pretty setup-dependant. Need 3x paladins and 3x tanks to do it no matter the size of the raid. 25 mans are far more likely to have 3-4 paladins than 3-4x rogues, though.
    Can't get online, does Aim hit for the same in both 10 and 25? If its 2.5x as much in 25, I'd imagine Hisek being far, far easier to deal with either way - basicly being able to have the same amount of people in as 25 man (with a spirit-shelling disc, perhaps). Not sure if it does, though, and can't get ingame to check the journal :/.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Yea, it's still pretty setup-dependant. Need 3x paladins and 3x tanks to do it no matter the size of the raid. 25 mans are far more likely to have 3-4 paladins than 3-4x rogues, though.
    Can't get online, does Aim hit for the same in both 10 and 25? If its 2.5x as much in 25, I'd imagine Hisek being far, far easier to deal with either way - basicly being able to have the same amount of people in as 25 man (with a spirit-shelling disc, perhaps). Not sure if it does, though, and can't get ingame to check the journal :/.
    Aim hits harder in 25 man. It's basically 2.5 more like you said (off the top of my head, 10 man is 1.8m ish, 25 man is 4.3m ish)

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Its a terribly small and insigificant part of the encounter. If you think it makes a big difference you clearly have not done paragons.
    I personally don't think its a terribly small and insignificant part of the encounter and I assure you, I've done paragons more times then you on hc. Its something Blizzard should totally hotfix.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Yea, it's still pretty setup-dependant. Need 3x paladins and 3x tanks to do it no matter the size of the raid. 25 mans are far more likely to have 3-4 paladins than 3-4x rogues, though.
    Can't get online, does Aim hit for the same in both 10 and 25? If its 2.5x as much in 25, I'd imagine Hisek being far, far easier to deal with either way - basicly being able to have the same amount of people in as 25 man (with a spirit-shelling disc, perhaps). Not sure if it does, though, and can't get ingame to check the journal :/.
    Yeah, hisek is our 4th kill in 10 man. We go Skeer>Rik'kal>Korven>Hisek>Xaril>Kaz'tik>Ka'roz>Kil'Ruk>Iyyokuk. The first 5 is pretty much set in stone in 10 man, the last 4 varies from guild to guild.

    What we use it for is just to burn skeer down before the second set of adds. What we did before was damage Rik'kal for 3 seconds in the pull (until the bloodletting) and not touch skeer, that would cause all bloods to go on rik'kal, so we just swapped to skeer right after the bloodletting and burned him down not caring about bloods. The only thing BoP allows us to do is to save those first 3 seconds we usually dpsed Rik'kal and instead put them on Skeer.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #17
    This could very well be abused in ways way worse than what has been shown on video and I'm 100% expecting this to be hotfixed now that it will become public knowledge.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    This could very well be abused in ways way worse than what has been shown on video and I'm 100% expecting this to be hotfixed now that it will become public knowledge.
    Atleast from 10 man PoV, there are bugs that you can abuse for far more benefit in 10 man. Scorpion and completely avoiding all shield bashes/viscious assaults come to mind.

    But yeah, the entire Paragons encounter is just filled with bugs.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #19
    lol @ people saying it's not a significant change to the way the fight works. It drastically lowers the difficulty of the fight, the same way that the outrange mechanic on the Lucid drastically lowered the difficulty of the fight (which got fixed, btw). It also has nothing to do with shortening your berserk timer, btw. There are a couple of scenarios you can deal with when you can kill Hisek right away:

    1) No Aim or Rapid fire, this one was super obvious
    2) You have snipe debuff available for every single paragon
    3) You can kill Lucid the second he comes down meaning the healing/raid CD requirement for the fight is significantly lower for fiery edges

    You could do

    Swarmpkeeper
    Dissector
    Prime
    Lucid
    Poisoned Mind
    Bloodseeker
    Manipulator
    Windreaver
    Locust
    Last edited by Jetjaguar; 2013-11-01 at 02:22 AM.
    Armory

    <WHATEVER WERE AWESOME> - 14/14 Heroic US 4th West 16th 25m Always Recruiting

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjaguar View Post
    lol @ people saying it's not a significant change to the way the fight works. It drastically lowers the difficulty of the fight, the same way that the outrange mechanic on the Lucid drastically lowered the difficulty of the fight (which got fixed, btw). It also has nothing to do with shortening your berserk timer, btw.
    Honestly have not bothered to check 25 man kills how they kill it, is there something majorly different? All I know is that for 10 man it is /care. As I mentioned there are a bunch of other shit that 10 mans can abuse for far greater benefit.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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