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  1. #341
    You still haven't answered how this is different from Council of Elders - you don't stop frostbite from casting, you just use a paladin ability to ignore it. Yet that was fixed - why the double standard now? Also there wouldn't magically be 15 sparks if you weren't using the method strat, there would be 7 - and for the record it was killed that way (again just a shift in difficulty not a complete reduction in difficulty - no one in their right mind thinks that casting HoP on a tank when a cast is going off is in any way difficult).

  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Hm. Skroe, you're arguing that if there's no physical damage no bloods spawn, and that's how HOP works - but to my knowledge, even if fully absorbing the damage (disc priest, blood DK etc), you will still cause bloods to spawn even without damage happening =P. Thus the trigger would be the hit landing, not the damage happening, no?
    Do we know this for sure? Have anyone tried it?

    I know in one of the two different Russian videos for the two different guilds, they used a 555ish geared Blood DK to tank it for very, very long. I wouldn't be surprised if he entirely absorbed it. Several of us thought it odd that they would put a very undergeared tank on a mob that hits extremely hard in general (and only harder as the fight goes on), so this is probably why. He probably did the same thing, just with DK absorbs.

    Frankly, if you could absorb it entirely, so much as a single point of damage being taken, then sure, it should work.

    Otherwise, it would be that the Korven and HoP both share the same Immune (Physical) flag.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    Do we know this for sure? Have anyone tried it?

    I know in one of the two different Russian videos for the two different guilds, they used a 555ish geared Blood DK to tank it for very, very long. I wouldn't be surprised if he entirely absorbed it. Several of us thought it odd that they would put a very undergeared tank on a mob that hits extremely hard in general (and only harder as the fight goes on), so this is probably why. He probably did the same thing, just with DK absorbs.

    Frankly, if you could absorb it entirely, so much as a single point of damage being taken, then sure, it should work.

    Otherwise, it would be that the Korven and HoP both share the same Immune (Physical) flag.

    Someone take a disc priest into flex/LFR with a tank friend and test it while I go to sleep please =P.

    Actually, I'd be inclined to think it works - it'd explain something very weird that was happening the first two evenings we had on Paragons. We still had our old DK maintank then (+570 ilvl), and was doing the skeer first tactic. At times, he'd skip spawning the second bloods - no one really could figure out why, but after starting with BOP and seeing the huge delays he could have on Bloodletting, we figured it'd just be us mistiming it. It *could* be that the DK was just absorbing the full blunt of the hit with his blood shield + a CD, unknowingly?
    This needs to be tested :P!
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-11-04 at 11:35 PM.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    Otherwise, it would be that the Korven and HoP both share the same Immune (Physical) flag.
    What's your plan to kill Korven while bloods are still spawning again by the way? Since you're logs are private I can't say for sure but I can say with 99.9% certainty that you don't magically have all of the top DPS in the world in your guild...

  5. #345
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    I'm not because the fight is over with 25 alive after Hisek dies as FOURTH.
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  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reqlol View Post
    You still haven't answered how this is different from Council of Elders - you don't stop frostbite from casting, you just use a paladin ability to ignore it. Yet that was fixed - why the double standard now? Also there wouldn't magically be 15 sparks if you weren't using the method strat, there would be 7 - and for the record it was killed that way (again just a shift in difficulty not a complete reduction in difficulty - no one in their right mind thinks that casting HoP on a tank when a cast is going off is in any way difficult).
    I think the difference lies in this.

    In Council of Elders, the "resolution" to Frostbite was to heal through it. That is what Blizzard wanted. By removing that from the fight, it removed a major sink on heals. There was no downside to doing it and all upside. Furthermore and most significantly, there was no mechanic in the fight that behaved identically. There wasn't some buff you could steal or orb to click, to use on the frostbite'd player to have the same effect.

    On this though, the Korven ability and Hand of Protection behave the same when used as a counter to the Bloodletting. The key difference here is that there is a mechanic in the fight (Korven's buff) that is doing something identical to what HoP does by design. Add to that similarity between them: a buff cast (HoP) with a long CD that must land in a 1.5s Bloodletting cast window, and Korven's buff which is identical in description. Furthermore, it is not all upside and no downside. The upside is it changes the course of the fight to reduce raid damage, the downside is that tank damage gets pretty astronomical (over a million) before terribly long.

    So I think the difference between Hand of Purity and this has to do with the substantial difference in the butterfly effect on the fight, but also Hand of Purity had no built in analog within the encounter that behaved the same way, while Hand of Protection has a nearly perfect analog in the form of Korven's buff, that behaves in an identical manner when used against Bloodletting. Korven's buff is supposed to prevent bloods from spawning. Hand of Protection behaves the same way. There was, however, nothing in Council, that was designed to prevent Frostbite damage.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    I think the difference lies in this.

    In Council of Elders, the "resolution" to Frostbite was to heal through it. That is what Blizzard wanted. By removing that from the fight, it removed a major sink on heals. There was no downside to doing it and all upside. Furthermore and most significantly, there was no mechanic in the fight that behaved identically. There wasn't some buff you could steal or orb to click, to use on the frostbite'd player to have the same effect.

    On this though, the Korven ability and Hand of Protection behave the same when used as a counter to the Bloodletting. The key difference here is that there is a mechanic in the fight (Korven's buff) that is doing something identical to what HoP does by design. Add to that similarity between them: a buff cast (HoP) with a long CD that must land in a 1.5s Bloodletting cast window, and Korven's buff which is identical in description. Furthermore, it is not all upside and no downside. The upside is it changes the course of the fight to reduce raid damage, the downside is that tank damage gets pretty astronomical (over a million) before terribly long.

    So I think the difference between Hand of Purity and this has to do with the substantial difference in the butterfly effect on the fight, but also Hand of Purity had no built in analog within the encounter that behaved the same way, while Hand of Protection has a nearly perfect analog in the form of Korven's buff, that behaves in an identical manner when used against Bloodletting. Korven's buff is supposed to prevent bloods from spawning. Hand of Protection behaves the same way. There was, however, nothing in Council, that was designed to prevent Frostbite damage.
    Again...what's your plan to kill Korven while bloods are still spawning again by the way? Since you're logs are private I can't say for sure but I can say with 99.9% certainty that you don't magically have all of the top DPS in the world in your guild... (even with all of them it would be pretty hard come to think of it) And uh, considering it took you like a week to kill Thok and basically everyone else in the top 20 killed it in a day I'm guessing that you're not gonna be able to drop healers to do it either.

    Also quit with the "tank damage is really hard and it's just as hard as doing the rest of the encounter normally" bullshit, it's not hard and everyone knows it - just let it go.
    Last edited by Reqlol; 2013-11-04 at 11:44 PM.

  8. #348
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    You do know that Korven buff was designed to be used for other things tho in the fight ye?

    Anyways "brilliant" strategy and all that. Does it destroy the encounter? Hell yes. Should it get fixed? Hell yes. Will it be this late? Prolly not. But ye GL/HF to all those who used it on Garrosh I guess.
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  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    No, this is totally different and has nothing to do with absorbs (regardless of whether it works or not). It's about the boss timing their abilities weirdly together or something. We never really figured it out either, sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. My guess would be that the cast gets cancelled because of some other threatening ability happening. Maybe they added some minimal time between abilities so they don't overlap or something. IDK really.

    In logs, it looks like this:
    [18:13:48.589] Skeer the Bloodseeker begins to cast Bloodletting
    [18:13:50.095] Skeer the Bloodseeker casts Bloodletting on Poyo
    [18:13:50.295] Skeer the Bloodseeker Bloodletting Poyo 750128 (A: 60500)
    [18:14:21.304] Skeer the Bloodseeker begins to cast Bloodletting
    [18:14:36.994] Skeer the Bloodseeker begins to cast Bloodletting
    [18:14:38.535] Skeer the Bloodseeker casts Bloodletting on Poyo
    [18:14:38.658] Skeer the Bloodseeker Bloodletting Poyo 586529

    ie: he starts casting it then absolutely nothing happens, the cast gets canceled. fairly sure everyone has this happening randomly once every X attempts and I wouldn't consider it as more than a random bug.
    It could be, I guess :/. It just seemed extremely odd to me that we'd have it happen multiple pulls a night during the first few nights, when we had a geared blood DK, and then not even once during the remaining progress where we've had the undergeared offspecs tanking it / had skeer up for four times+ as long (if it had nothing to do with mitigating dmg and instead was due to a threatening ability, you'd imagine it would keep happening over the time he was up. Unless its tied to Aim/Rapid Fire).

  10. #350
    I am Murloc! Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reqlol View Post
    What's your plan to kill Korven while bloods are still spawning again by the way? Since you're logs are private I can't say for sure but I can say with 99.9% certainty that you don't magically have all of the top DPS in the world in your guild...
    Well, I'll share a little of my thoughts, but you'll have to forgive me for being a little vague because I don't want to give away precise strat details to others reading the thread, even if you killed it.

    I'll state outright, that the "goal" if you will, is to kill Korven and get his Buff. And I can tell you right now, that HoPing every blood spawn up to that point is neither required or desirable. Depending on what you do on other parts of the first leg of the encounter, we're actually only talking about a subset of all the bloods that spawn up to the point Korven dies.

    So to frame the problem more precisely, the question is "what do we have in place" for this subset of Blood spawns. I'm being extremely general as I said, but that should I think, give some insight to my thinking: trying to say, without HoPs, I need so solve every Blood spawn up to Korven's death is entirely the wrong problem. I just need to solve some of them. That's a much easier problem.

    So when I say, there is no way Hisek isn't dying first, barring them changing how Korven's buff works, this is what I mean. Dealing with that subset is not complicated, and hell, maybe not even uniform, depending what else is happening.
    Last edited by Skroe; 2013-11-04 at 11:53 PM.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    Well, I'll share a little of my thoughts, but you'll have to forgive me for being a little vague because I don't want to give away precise strat details to others reading the thread, even if you killed it.

    I'll state outright, that the "goal" if you will, is to kill Korven and get his Buff. And I can tell you right now, that HoPing every blood spawn up to that point is neither required or desirable. Depending on what you do on other parts of the first leg of the encounter, we're actually only talking about a subset of all the bloods that spawn up to the point Korven dies.

    So to frame the problem more precisely, the question is "what do we have in place" for this subset of Blood spawns. That, there's some options. We can bait obviously. We can do some movement things with various bosses. We could be extremely organized with stuns. I mean, I have some stuff written up just in case, but I'm being extremely general as I said, but that should I think, give some insight to my thinking: trying to say, without HoPs, I need so solve every Blood spawn up to Korven's death is entirely the wrong problem. I just need to solve some of them. That's a much easier problem.

    So when I say, there is no way Hisek isn't dying first, barring them changing how Korven's buff works, this is what I mean.
    So what you're telling me is that without the use of BoP you guys have amazing enough DPS to kill Hisek, whatever you're gonna kill second with bloods spawning, kill Korven and another Paragon at the same time to bait out the amber (with bloods spawning - definitely need to kill them at this point) and kill Korven without wiping later on to enrage? Alright man, you guys should clearly be competing with Method for world firsts then cuz you're way better than #40 US or whatever you have been in that case!
    Last edited by Reqlol; 2013-11-04 at 11:56 PM.

  12. #352
    I am Murloc! Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reqlol View Post
    So what you're telling me is that without the use of BoP you guys have amazing enough DPS to kill Hisek, whatever you're gonna kill second with bloods spawning, kill Korven and another Paragon at the same time to bait out the amber (with bloods spawning - definitely need to kill them at this point) and kill Korven without wiping later on to Enrage? Alright man, you guys should clearly be competing with Method for world firsts then cuz you're way better than #40 US or whatever you have been in that case!
    That's not what I'm saying at all. I mean high DPS is required in general, but there is things like baiting and stunning, and moving the boss to various spots and various points.... among a few possibilities. Sorry to be vague, but you get my point. It's a big room, with 4 known spawn points with mobs that spawn on a timer. Now which ones are dangerous to the plan? That's the basis of the problem.

    And by the way, we killed it 20s before enrage, so we have some time regardless.

    Your attitude isn't necessary.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    That's not what I'm saying at all. I mean high DPS is required in general, but there is things like baiting and stunning, and moving the boss to various spots and various points.... among a few possibilities. Sorry to be vague, but you get my point. It's a big room, with 4 known spawn points. And by the way, we killed it 20s before enrage, so we have some time regardless.

    Your attitude isn't necessary.
    You killed it 20s before enrage using BoPs rofl - that's hardly a good measure of what it would be without. Also you seriously think you could kite Korven around the room while doing enough DPS to kill him before the second amber? This just gets better with every post honestly - true strat master right here.

  14. #354
    I am Murloc! Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reqlol View Post
    You killed it 20s before enrage using BoPs rofl - that's hardly a good measure of what it would be without. Also you seriously think you could kite Korven around the room while doing enough DPS to kill him before the second amber? This just gets better with every post honestly - true strat master right here.
    Who said anything about kiting him around the room? And you're right it does. Keep it up, friend.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    Who said anything about kiting him around the room? And you're right it does. Keep it up, friend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    moving the boss to various spots and various points
    ??????

    Anyways, if you could go ahead and try to do this super secret strat this week and post a stream of the attempts for all of us I'm sure I speak for everyone here in saying that we'd be impressed when it died (in like 3 months maybe?).

  16. #356
    I am Murloc! Skroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reqlol View Post
    ??????

    Anyways, if you could go ahead and try to do this super secret strat this week and post a stream of the attempts for all of us I'm sure I speak for everyone here in saying that we'd be impressed when it died (in like 3 months maybe?).
    I said I was being general. You're working under a false assumption: I'm not here to impress anyone. I honestly don't care what you think. I'm defending a strat we did, not created, just executed, on the off chance Blizz came across this thread, as they are known to do because we know they read fan sites - they have said as much. I wasn't going to let it be a 20 page shooting gallery on the strat, because aside from thinking the arguments against the strat are utterly without merit, I don't like taking risks like that. The rants against it need(ed) to be answered. Every argument given a compelling counter argument. This has been nothing but an ideal platform for that.

    In other words, thank you very much.

    So thats why I'm here. I don't care to impress anyone. We play a video game where plenty of players throw money at high level streamers playing said video game or chicks wearing pink tank tops who let their tits hang out while playing said video game. "Impress" left the building long ago and I refuse to get a pair of tits and let them hang out. Frankly, we just want to live up to the potential the guild has and be happy with ourselves. Fuck everything else.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    I said I was being general. You're working under a false assumption: I'm not here to impress anyone. I honestly don't care what you think. I'm defending a strat we did, not created, just executed, on the off chance Blizz came across this thread, as they are known to do because we know they read fan sites. I wasn't going to let it be a 20 page shooting gallery on the strat because aside from thinking the arguments against the strat are utterly without merit, I don't like taking risks like that. The rants against it need(ed) to be answered.

    So thats why I'm here. I don't care to impress anyone. We play a video game where plenty of players throw money at high level streamers playing said video game or chicks wearing pink tank tops who let their tits hang out while playing said video game. Impress left the building long ago. Frankly, we just want to live up to the potential the guild has and be happy with ourselves. Fuck everything else.
    Ok, you've made your points and they've literally all been countered by the multitude of people from top guilds posting in this thread aside from the few people from your guild and HiJ. Yet you're still in here beating the same dead horse... seems more like you're trying to rationalize the fact that you cheesed the fight to yourself than anything at this point frankly.

  18. #358
    I like turtles.

    On another note. I don't mind cheesing anything out. If I could finger of death Garrosh I would. Hell when I was in another guild and Heroic Tsulong didn't cast any abilities I was the first to say BURN HIM NOWWWWWWWWWWW. Both the expected and the unexpected ways to kill a boss are fun to me. With how long tiers last I think changing things up is extremely fun and I don't simply like to go through the motions week in and week out for a bunch of purples that don't mean jack a few months down the road.

    I play to hang out with my e-friends and kill some bosses. Breaking things is fun to me but I'm going to tell you on a level of cheese the Bloodletting thing isn't even a 2 on a 1 to 10 scale. With all the ways people killed things over the years even if this is a cheese this is pretty damn tame. This tier is awfully lackluster in difficulty and is flying by fast. If you're worried about who is going to come in 13th when Garrosh dies I got some bad news for you. None of us are number 1, 2 or 3 so you should check your priorities a little better and don't let something like who's gonna be 12th loser get you down.

    If you're not sponsored, making $ or any of that crap your rank shouldn't really bother you as long as you're happy with what you've accomplished as a group. If not maybe you're anger isn't really with how my guild did Paragons but rather you're looking for something better than the guild you're currently in. Maybe your frustration with others in your raid group is a bit unhealthy for you and a change of scenery is something you need.

    By the way Tyranny is recruiting exceptional players.

  19. #359
    This thread is starting to become really embarrassing, if it hasn't reached that territory already.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjaguar View Post
    This thread is starting to become really embarrassing, if it hasn't reached that territory already.
    I think it's been there since like page 4 :/

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