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  1. #341
    News just in: this is the thread that never stops giving.

    I think I'll end it with a comparison from t14. Sha of fears PS2 buff reset all player CDs. This, due to an oversight, reset daily profession CDs as well.

    Fixed.

    Admittedly no one is going to win this argument.Maybe if people spent as long on garrosh hc than defending their bugged strat, they'd have it down.

    Like me. I could've got at least 25 tweets out in the time I've spent here ;(

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashvael View Post
    Nothing in this sentence implies that preventing reaction 1 should also prevent reaction 2. It was obviously an oversight and this is exactly the kind of stuff which would get fixed in about 30 minutes if we were to use it during progress. This is me speaking out of experience if you want a "source" on that.

    You compare it to Lei Shen and AoE grips. You realise the ability he's using is still happening, right? We're not preventing him from using the ability by using a spell-reflect or something. I don't get your comparison here. Please explain further.

    Your comparison to Horridon is pretty much the same crap as with Lei Shen with the only difference being that it's also HoP that is getting used. Horridon still does his attack. Hand of Protection is there to clear the person of physical debuffs like it's supposed to. It's not preventing Horridon from spawning adds or from doing a charge or whatever.
    I think I answered the first part of your post above, but I'll explain further on what I mean by Lei Shen.

    The central premise of the argument against HoPing the first few bloods (and keep in mind, we're talking a handful of HoP's here), is that it allows killing of Skeer anywhere but first, which has a butterfly effect that changes the course of the fight. Because you can kill Hisek->Rikkal->Korven, you can use the Korven buff to have the tank not take physical damage from the Bloodletting, thus preventing Blood spawns. The net effect is that you can kill Iyyokk and Xaril and Kaztik with no overlap between them. So by doing this, with a few HoPs, you change via this strat, the course of the fight... the entire internal series of events really.The problems change. Change though... not trivialize. You no longer have to deal with for example, Iyyokk's Firey Edge while killing Hisek 4th. As an aside, it's worth noting, had the fight not been set to a fixed order, changes to the course of the fight, would be expected week to week.

    I argue, that this is nearly identical to how Lei Shen and Dark Animus were resolved. By doing the 2x AoE Grips and not killing Larges, the course of the fights were completely changed . In Phase 2 Lei Shen, imagine spreading out and using more Cooldowns as the Ball Lightings dropped on the raid and doing it very much like normal mode, were they ungrippable and unstunnable. Imagine single targeting and AoEing them down as they jumped around. However, the grip + stun, made it a rather low damage, extremely controlled phase, running pillar to pillar aside, because the only damage going out from the Ball Lightings is on the 7 players it dropped on. A grip, a stun, and they're dead in 2 GCDs. The net effect? Phase 2, the meat of the fight, is simplified and the course of the fight changes. All you needed was 2 DKs. If you had one, strat didn't work at all.

    And Dark Animus? Well everyone knows that one. By not utilizing Larges, mechanics from the fight were eliminated, because it was found to be possible because the extra time from dumping anima in there (Blizzard's justification for the Large's existence) was not needed.

    The salient point here is this.
    On Dark Animus, Larges Aside, no abilities were outright "prevented" from casting. But the course of the fight was changed by a core strat decision that avoided a mechanic by not activating it's cause.
    On Lei Shen, no abilities were prevented from casting. Grip just dealt with the Ball lightnings, as you stated, but the net effect changed the course of the fight.

    Here is no different. The strat does not prevent the Blood Letting cast at all. He does the attack. He strikes the tank. Between the time he winds up and lands the strike the tank either gets a HoP or hits his special action button. If you look at a log, the attack goes off, and it hits his target. But because he inflicts 0 physical damage, bloods do not spawn. This is exactly the behavior as if instead of HoP, the tank were to use Korven's buff, designed for this ability in the first place. It's identical in events, just instead of HoP, an ability picked up from a dead boss in the fight.

    That's why I think the argument against the strat is farcical. Because the fight has an ability that was built in for use by the tank to do exactly what HoP is briefly used for. And I'm emphasizing briefly, because let's not forget, Korven is out of the fight pretty fast and that tank has that buff before long anyway. Being pissed about HoP actually misses the point, because it's Korven's buff that makes this possible for the raid to do for 75% of Skeer's life.

    Now it can be argued that maybe Blood Letting should behave differently. Maybe the Bloods should spawn regardless if the strike causes ANY physical damage. But that is not the behavior of the strike with the Korven buff OR with HoP. By virtue of how the Korven buff functions, we can conclude that is NOT the design's intent. So if folks want to argue that, they need to argue with a change in the design of the fight itself - changing what the Korven buff is purposed for namely - rather than saying HoP is somehow an exploit or a cheese strat. How is it either, when if we blanked out "Hand of Protection" and "Master of Amber", and looked at a log at the series of events, you'd see the exact same thing happen? It simply can't be. It applies a different metric.

    And as I said, even if it were changed so that the Blood Letting worked through HoP, dit oesn't change the fact the strong part of the strat is keeping Skeer alive post-korven, to get that Korven buff to simplify him, and all that would do would change how the raid dealt with Blood Letting through about 3.5 minutes into the fight, which isn't a huge problem.
    Last edited by Skroe; 2013-11-04 at 10:48 PM.

  3. #343
    Warchief Redpanda's Avatar
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    from an observers point of view its only "cheesing" when its not convenient to you. No one batted an eye when you could hop or bubble debuffs in tot so why is this any different? but what do i know?
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    People doing below 200k dps? Ain't nobody got time for that.
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    Why? Why should content be gated behind skill?
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  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    Similar, and yet completely different. Let's look at the tooltip for deathstrike:
    Focuses dark power into a strike that deals 185% weapon damage plus 499 to an enemy and heals you for 20% of the damage you have sustained from non-player sources during the preceding 5 sec (minimum of at least 7% of your maximum health). This attack cannot be parried.

    Now let me edit it in the manner that the Dungeon Journal description for Blood Letting has it written.

    Focuses dark power into a strike that deals 185% weapon damage plus 499 to an enemy, causing a heal on you for 20% of the damage you have sustained from non-player sources during the preceding 5 sec (minimum of at least 7% of your maximum health). This attack cannot be parried.
    Uh, both tooltips imply that it's the ability that causes the damage and the healing. They certainly don't imply that it's the damage that causes the healing. Both tooltips read to me that it's the ability that deals damage and heals you. Logically, mitigating the damage certainly shouldn't prevent you from getting healed since one isn't based off the other.

    Take a statement like 'The bullet deals 90 damage, causing the target to bleed'. It's quite obvious that it's the bullet that causes the bleeding.

    Look at Atonement's tooltip for a secondary effect (healing) completely based on the primary effect (damage) - 'When you deal damage... you instantly heal...'.
    Last edited by Basmothh; 2013-11-04 at 10:49 PM.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesmarcus View Post
    Maybe if people spent as long on garrosh hc than defending their bugged strat, they'd have it down.
    Ssssh. With enough time, maybe they'll find the obvious exploit on garrosh as well. I don't know if it's public knowledge yet?

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesmarcus View Post
    Maybe if people spent as long on garrosh hc than defending their bugged strat, they'd have it down.
    Not bugged. And we took care of strat stuff for Garrosh last week and before and after every raid. 4 Days a week ftw.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    Ssssh. With enough time, maybe they'll find the obvious exploit on garrosh as well. I don't know if it's public knowledge yet?
    Well under your hilariously low-bar definition, whoever figured out kiting of Empowered Whirling Corruption adds, already did that. Sooo... mission accomplished?

  7. #347
    We're all cheering you on Tyranny. Use the kiting adds exploit. Do you classify only having 7 at range for the weapons an exploit too?

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Basmothh View Post
    Uh, both tooltips imply that it's the ability that causes the damage and the healing. They certainly don't imply that it's the damage that causes the healing. Both tooltips read to me that it's the ability that deals damage and heals you. Logically, mitigating the damage certainly shouldn't prevent you from getting healed since one isn't based off the other.

    Take a statement like 'The bullet deals 90 damage, causing the target to bleed'. It's quite obvious that it's the bullet that causes the bleeding.

    Look at Atonement's tooltip for a secondary effect (healing) completely based on the primary effect (damage) - 'When you deal damage... you instantly heal...'.
    No way. Noooo way. And implies concurrency. Causes implies causality. They mean two very different things. In the first case, I shouldn't be surprised if it heals. In the second case, it absolutely should not. And regardless of the semantics, as you say, the design of Blood Letting is clearly "causes", as evidenced by what happens when you have the tank use the Korven buff on himself when it is about to hit (no blood spawn). In both word in action, the Strike Causes the bloods to spawn.

    It's very hard to argue that wasn't intended. Or are you trying to argue that now? Because if you are, you're wasting your time. It's pretty self evident that the intent for the interaction between Korven's buff and Skeer's Blood Letting is exactly as it works in game, never mind tool tips. Prevent the damage, you prevent the spawn. That's the foundation of how Korven's buff is designed to solve Blood Letting.

    HoP does the same thing, so what's your argument? You're pretty much arguing for a design change to Blood Letting that would cause a change to Korven's buff too. In that case, there is essentially no point to Korven's buff besides... what... 2 uses on Kaz'tik? Clearly, that wasn't the ability's sole intent. The intent was to prevent blood letting using it, otherwise it would be the only Boss Ability in the fight that had like, 2 uses out of it, and it would be for a tank to cast on other people, of all things.

    You see how many logical hoops you have to jump through to conclude it's intent wasn't anything other than the tank using it during Blood Letting (incidentally, Skeer is an extremely hard hitting mob too)? I mean we can get out Occam's Razor here while we're at it. Is that likely? There is a way to solve one of the heals in the fight (the Encase in Amber, via Strong Legs). Would there not logically be a solution for the second of the heals in the fight? Korven's buff is it.

    So if you want Bloodletting's design to change, come out and say it. And least you'd be honest. Because using HoP, is entirely consistent with the design of Bloodletting as it exists right now. All I have to do, is point to how Korven's buff works and identically interacts with Bloodletting. As designed the prevention of the damage, prevents the bloods. That is the "solution" to that heal, just as Strong Legs is the "solution" to Korven's Encase in Amber.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesmarcus View Post
    We're all cheering you on Tyranny. Use the kiting adds exploit. Do you classify only having 7 at range for the weapons an exploit too?
    Clearly. Along with Rogues using Goblin Gliders off of the Iron Star caster guys.
    Last edited by Skroe; 2013-11-04 at 11:09 PM.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    I think I answered the first part of your post above, but I'll explain further on what I mean by Lei Shen.

    I argue, that this is nearly identical to how Lei Shen and Dark Animus were resolved. By doing the 2x AoE Grips and not killing Larges, the course of the fights were completely changed . In Phase 2 Lei Shen, imagine spreading out and using more Cooldowns as the Ball Lightings dropped on the raid and doing it very much like normal mode, were they ungrippable and unstunnable. Imagine single targeting and AoEing them down as they jumped around. However, the grip + stun, made it a rather low damage, extremely controlled phase, running pillar to pillar aside, because the only damage going out from the Ball Lightings is on the 7 players it dropped on. A grip, a stun, and they're dead in 2 GCDs. The net effect? Phase 2, the meat of the fight, is simplified and the course of the fight changes. All you needed was 2 DKs. If you had one, strat didn't work at all.
    You do realize how insane this argument sounds right? Having two DKs in the raid doesn't magically make the ball lightnings not spawn, it just changes the difficulty to something else - instead of spreading at random and healing through the ball lightnings while they're killed you position in a nearly perfect circle around the boss to prevent people from getting killed when they spawn while keeping them in range of grip while dealing with his other mechanics normally. In the case of Paragons you completely ignore the difficulty of Hisek (which is essentially all of the difficulty of the beginning of the fight) on top of ignoring the Xaril/Iyyokk/Kaztik combos which are the hardest part of the fight in exchange for a moderate amount of tank damage for like 2 minutes? Ok.jpg - the only truly comparable instance that happened this expansion was (as someone mentioned earlier) using Purity on Frostbitten people during Council of Elders. That was promptly fixed so it seems like nothing more than a double standard on Blizzards part to not fix this.

  10. #350
    Aside from all this arguing back and forth, out of interest, people keep randomely quoting "devs stated this was unintended but won't be fixed" - yet I haven't seen any source apart from the guy posting it say he won't reveal it as he spoke to the dev personally? Since when has that counted as proof <.<. Does that mean I can claim basicly anything is intended/unintended, slap a "My Dev friend told me so" onto it, and it can used as an argument :3?

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Reqlol View Post
    You do realize how insane this argument sounds right? Having two DKs in the raid doesn't magically make the ball lightnings not spawn, it just changes the difficulty to something else - instead of spreading at random and healing through the ball lightnings while they're killed you position in a nearly perfect circle around the boss to prevent people from getting killed when they spawn while keeping them in range of grip while dealing with his other mechanics normally. In the case of Paragons you completely ignore the difficulty of Hisek (which is essentially all of the difficulty of the beginning of the fight) on top of ignoring the Xaril/Iyyokk/Kaztik combos which are the hardest part of the fight in exchange for a moderate amount of tank damage for like 2 minutes? Ok.jpg - the only truly comparable instance that happened this expansion was (as someone mentioned earlier) using Purity on Frostbitten people during Council of Elders. That was promptly fixed so it seems like nothing more than a double standard on Blizzards part to not fix this.
    But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying using that strat, with the grips, cuts down and largely solves the Ball Lighting problem. Dealing with 7 balls that can be gripped and globaled, is a lot simplier than dealing with 15 that can't be. It changes the course of the fight. It's a butterfly effect cause by a class ability, that probably wasn't explicitly intended but was created by some ingenious raiders.

    This is no different. The strat does not prevent Bloodletting. The strike goes off. It just does no damage because of the HoP or Korven buff. And because there is no damage, there is no blood. That is how blood's don't spawn if you use the Korven buff on the tank as the strike is about to hit, and it's how the blood's don't spawn if you use HoP. It's the exact same thing.

    We're not preventing Skeer from casting Bloodletting. There is just a confusion on folks about how Bloodletting works. The physical damage is supposed to cause the bloods spawning. No physical damage, no bloods. That is how the Korven buff was designed to interact with the fight - to "resolve" that heal, just as Strong legs was designed to "resolve" Korven's Encase in Amber.

    Now there is a difference of opinion if this should be the case - some folks clearly think blood SHOULD spawn regardless. That's a design change. There is no evidence that that is how the mechanic is supposed to work. I think the body of the evidence is firmly on the side of causality - that A (the strike) causes B (the bloods) when damage occurs, and that Korven buff is the built in solution to that, and that the behavior that we see, underscored by how it's written up in the dungeon journal, is entirely expected, as designed and legitimate.

    Otherwise what's the built in solution to the heal the bloods provide? There is one for Koven, why not for Skeer? Seems very unlikey, considering they are the two heals in the fight. What else would Korven's buff be used for? Merely the two Mesmerizes on Kaz'tik? No way.

    The anti-HoP argument would have a point if we prevented Skeer from even CASTING Bloodletting. That would be what you're saying. That would be illegitimate. But we don't. We let him cast it. We just don't let him hit the tank for anything, which prevents the bloods, because it is the dealing of physical damage that causes bloods to spawn. And this being the exact manner in which the Korven buff prevents Blood from spawning, it's a hard case to make that it's illegitimate. It's the exact same behavior.
    Last edited by Skroe; 2013-11-04 at 11:25 PM.

  12. #352
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    It is very different however. Nobody gives a shit about stuff when Tyranny does it. Yet everyone does when Method/Paragon/w-e are going for the world first.

    Just ask yourself one simple question. Should a 13th heroic boss in the instance be on the same retard level of difficulty as say Malkorok to begin with? Well thats what the HoP approach does to it.
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  13. #353
    Hm. Skroe, you're arguing that if there's no physical damage no bloods spawn, and that's how HOP works - but to my knowledge, even if fully absorbing the damage (disc priest, blood DK etc), you will still cause bloods to spawn even without damage happening =P. Thus the trigger would be the hit landing, not the damage happening, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    It is very different however. Nobody gives a shit about stuff when Tyranny does it. Yet everyone does when Method/Paragon/w-e are going for the world first.

    Just ask yourself one simple question. Should a 13th heroic boss in the instance be on the same retard level of difficulty as say Malkorok to begin with? Well thats what the HoP approach does to it.
    You're severely overestimating how easy the fight becomes if you think it drops to the level of Malkorok with HOP =P. It's still above Siegecrafter with the midwinter tactic in difficulty. Or atleast, it is when you kill skeer 4th (people keep mentioning leaving him up even longer, but thats too unstable to be worth it to us :/).

    Also, people keep mentioning how you skip the Kaztik/lyokuk/Xaril combo with this - how on earth does anyone ever get that combo, considering Kazroc is left up alive the entire fight? It's Kazroc/Lyokuk/Xaril, or Kazroc/Kaztik/Lyokuk, or Kazroc/Kaztik/Xaril :<. Might just be someone who misspelt (both start with Kaz), but yea.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-11-04 at 11:30 PM.

  14. #354
    You still haven't answered how this is different from Council of Elders - you don't stop frostbite from casting, you just use a paladin ability to ignore it. Yet that was fixed - why the double standard now? Also there wouldn't magically be 15 sparks if you weren't using the method strat, there would be 7 - and for the record it was killed that way (again just a shift in difficulty not a complete reduction in difficulty - no one in their right mind thinks that casting HoP on a tank when a cast is going off is in any way difficult).

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    No way. Noooo way. And implies concurrency. Causes implies causality..
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashvael View Post
    Not sure if you need a reading lesson but you clearly missed an and in that sentence. Let's read the sentence together.

    Skeer swings his weapon in a mighty arc (that's the action which is followed by 2 reactions),
    inflicting Physical damage to the target (reaction 1) and
    causing blood creatures to spawn around the room. (reaction 2)
    I mean, come on now. This is beyond childish by this point.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Hm. Skroe, you're arguing that if there's no physical damage no bloods spawn, and that's how HOP works - but to my knowledge, even if fully absorbing the damage (disc priest, blood DK etc), you will still cause bloods to spawn even without damage happening =P. Thus the trigger would be the hit landing, not the damage happening, no?
    Do we know this for sure? Have anyone tried it?

    I know in one of the two different Russian videos for the two different guilds, they used a 555ish geared Blood DK to tank it for very, very long. I wouldn't be surprised if he entirely absorbed it. Several of us thought it odd that they would put a very undergeared tank on a mob that hits extremely hard in general (and only harder as the fight goes on), so this is probably why. He probably did the same thing, just with DK absorbs.

    Frankly, if you could absorb it entirely, so much as a single point of damage being taken, then sure, it should work.

    Otherwise, it would be that the Korven and HoP both share the same Immune (Physical) flag.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    Do we know this for sure? Have anyone tried it?

    I know in one of the two different Russian videos for the two different guilds, they used a 555ish geared Blood DK to tank it for very, very long. I wouldn't be surprised if he entirely absorbed it. Several of us thought it odd that they would put a very undergeared tank on a mob that hits extremely hard in general (and only harder as the fight goes on), so this is probably why. He probably did the same thing, just with DK absorbs.

    Frankly, if you could absorb it entirely, so much as a single point of damage being taken, then sure, it should work.

    Otherwise, it would be that the Korven and HoP both share the same Immune (Physical) flag.

    Someone take a disc priest into flex/LFR with a tank friend and test it while I go to sleep please =P.

    Actually, I'd be inclined to think it works - it'd explain something very weird that was happening the first two evenings we had on Paragons. We still had our old DK maintank then (+570 ilvl), and was doing the skeer first tactic. At times, he'd skip spawning the second bloods - no one really could figure out why, but after starting with BOP and seeing the huge delays he could have on Bloodletting, we figured it'd just be us mistiming it. It *could* be that the DK was just absorbing the full blunt of the hit with his blood shield + a CD, unknowingly?
    This needs to be tested :P!
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-11-04 at 11:35 PM.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    Otherwise, it would be that the Korven and HoP both share the same Immune (Physical) flag.
    What's your plan to kill Korven while bloods are still spawning again by the way? Since you're logs are private I can't say for sure but I can say with 99.9% certainty that you don't magically have all of the top DPS in the world in your guild...

  19. #359
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    I'm not because the fight is over with 25 alive after Hisek dies as FOURTH.
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  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Reqlol View Post
    You still haven't answered how this is different from Council of Elders - you don't stop frostbite from casting, you just use a paladin ability to ignore it. Yet that was fixed - why the double standard now? Also there wouldn't magically be 15 sparks if you weren't using the method strat, there would be 7 - and for the record it was killed that way (again just a shift in difficulty not a complete reduction in difficulty - no one in their right mind thinks that casting HoP on a tank when a cast is going off is in any way difficult).
    I think the difference lies in this.

    In Council of Elders, the "resolution" to Frostbite was to heal through it. That is what Blizzard wanted. By removing that from the fight, it removed a major sink on heals. There was no downside to doing it and all upside. Furthermore and most significantly, there was no mechanic in the fight that behaved identically. There wasn't some buff you could steal or orb to click, to use on the frostbite'd player to have the same effect.

    On this though, the Korven ability and Hand of Protection behave the same when used as a counter to the Bloodletting. The key difference here is that there is a mechanic in the fight (Korven's buff) that is doing something identical to what HoP does by design. Add to that similarity between them: a buff cast (HoP) with a long CD that must land in a 1.5s Bloodletting cast window, and Korven's buff which is identical in description. Furthermore, it is not all upside and no downside. The upside is it changes the course of the fight to reduce raid damage, the downside is that tank damage gets pretty astronomical (over a million) before terribly long.

    So I think the difference between Hand of Purity and this has to do with the substantial difference in the butterfly effect on the fight, but also Hand of Purity had no built in analog within the encounter that behaved the same way, while Hand of Protection has a nearly perfect analog in the form of Korven's buff, that behaves in an identical manner when used against Bloodletting. Korven's buff is supposed to prevent bloods from spawning. Hand of Protection behaves the same way. There was, however, nothing in Council, that was designed to prevent Frostbite damage.

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