Paragons of the Klaxxi Heroic 25

[Basmothh]

On your point though, in no reality is BoPing a limited number of Bloodlettings as a bridge to Korven's buff anywhere in the same galaxy as either of those cases. It's not even close, particularly the Saronite Bomb case.

Like that's absolutely laughable and it defines down "exploit" or "cheese" to such a way that makes everything except one way of doing things cheese. It's an extraordinarily shitty argument.

We're talking about HoPs... and you're putting that on the level of causing the floor on heroic LK not to despawn? Like are you for real? As I already explained, the most similar thing in recent history to the HoP is the grips on Heroic LK, which everyone did. The entire argument is absurd at this point. It's not like we're using some level 60 potion or some trinket from Karazhan or some world buff from Wrath. We're using a class ability on every Paladin's bar.

And hell, let me just remind you, it was six months ago you were doing Heroic Horridon... i believe your Horridon tank probably got HoP'd right? To clear the buff? Oh you bet you did. When it works for you, it's strat. When it doesn't, it's "cheese" or "exploit".

Honestly, what a goddamn joke the argument against it is. It was sour graps 10 pages ago, it's sour grapes now. Our position hasn't moved an inch, and it's not justification at this point - to be frank, we're not accountable to anyone and I didn't give a crap what you thought 10 page ago and don't right now eithers. The only reason is because I wasn't going to let this thread be a one sided shooting gallery against something few had done using this method. We've made our case rather comprehensively. People who don't accept it... well... that's their prerogative. Fuck 'em.

What makes either of those cases any worse? Saronite Bombs were used with the intention of maximizing DPS, everything else was kind of an unintended result, sorta in the same vein as the HoP strategy. Outranging Iyyokuk also made use of the fact that Fiery Edges have a maximum range, and one can make the similar argument about its legitimacy.

Regardless, you've made my point for me, thanks. It's all about double standards and everyone has one, including you. It's hypocritical to defend this particular strat when it serves your needs, while applying a different standard of proportionality to other similar instances. This certainly isn't the first case of guilds taking advantage of loopholes, and no one is to blame for this more than Blizzard is.

So no, I don't really care that you used the strategy. I just wanted to point out your double standards and constantly shifting narrative.

[Skroe]

What makes either of those cases any worse? Saronite Bombs were used with the intention of maximizing DPS, everything else was kind of an unintended result, sorta in the same vein as the HoP strategy. Outranging Iyyokuk also made use of the fact that Fiery Edges have a maximum range, and one can make the similar argument about its legitimacy.

Regardless, you've made my point for me, thanks. It's all about double standards and everyone has one, including you. It's hypocritical to defend this particular strat when it serves your needs, while applying a different standard of proportionality to other similar instances. This certainly isn't the first case of guilds taking advantage of loopholes, and no one is to blame for this more than Blizzard is.

So no, I don't really care that you used the strategy. I just wanted to point out your double standards and constantly shifting narrative.

This is what's known as declaring victory and going home.

It's pretty self evident there is a world of difference between using saronite bombs to glitch out geometry and using BoP in a manner that's been used dozens of times on encounters. You're being intentionally obtuse, so you can think whatever the heck you want. I don't care. But as far as much "shifting narrative and double standards" go, only in a world where there is no gradient between legitimate uses of class abilities and out right bugging of the game, is that happening.

Saronite bombs were an outright bugging of the game. They prevented the ground from despawning because the game did not know how to process thrown.

Using HoP on the initial blood spawns accomplishes the same thing that Korven's built in ability accomplishes using nothing other than a built in class. Possible oversight on Blizzard's part? Maybe. Maybe not. Exploit? Nope. We didn't cause any geometry to de-spawn or Skeer not to cast his ability. All we did was follow the rules: the ability clearly says "inflicts physical damage causing....". Solution? Prevent the physical damage. Using HoP of all things, the go-to ability for doing that. And then we get to Korven, use the built in ability the fight provided to prevent the spawn. Very fair and legitimate. Completely within bounds and nothing like the Saranote bomb incident.

Congruence between the two is just... wow I feel sorry for you if you think that. Clearly, things are only black and white in your head if you think in that manner. Even AoE gripping sparks on Heroic Lei Shen is a "gray". So come back when you do Heroic Lei Shen without a pair of AoE grips. Then maybe you'll have a case that wasn't patently absurd, because you my friend, have lived that kind of gray. You lived it on Lei Shen, you lived it on Horridon. You lived it on Dark Shaman, and on Nazgrim. You've lived it every tier you raided. You lived it hard and you lived it well.

[Intrepid1]

Skro you used too many big words for him to understand. It's not nice to take advantage of the disadvantaged. Now apologize to the poor fellow.

[Basmothh]

This is what's known as declaring victory and going home.

It's pretty self evident there is a world of difference between using saronite bombs to glitch out geometry and using BoP in a manner that's been used dozens of times on encounters. You're being intentionally obtuse, so you can think whatever the heck you want. I don't care. But as far as much "shifting narrative and double standards" go, only in a world where there is no gradient between legitimate uses of class abilities and out right bugging of the game, is that happening.

Saronite bombs were an outright bugging of the game. They prevented the ground from despawning because the game did not know how to process thrown.

Using HoP on the initial blood spawns accomplishes the same thing that Korven's built in ability accomplishes using nothing other than a built in class. Possible oversight on Blizzard's part? Maybe. Maybe not. Exploit? Nope. We didn't cause any geometry to de-spawn or Skeer not to cast his ability. All we did was follow the rules: the ability clearly says "inflicts physical damage causing....". Solution? Prevent the physical damage. Using HoP of all things, the go-to ability for doing that. And then we get to Korven, use the built in ability the fight provided to prevent the spawn. Very fair and legitimate. Completely within bounds and nothing like the Saranote bomb incident.

Congruence between the two is just... wow I feel sorry for you if you think that. Clearly, things are only black and white in your head if you think in that manner. Even AoE gripping sparks on Heroic Lei Shen is a "gray". So come back when you do Heroic Lei Shen without a pair of AoE grips. Then maybe you'll have a case that wasn't patently absurd, because you my friend, have lived that kind of gray. You lived it on Lei Shen, you lived it on Horridon. You lived it on Dark Shaman, and on Nazgrim. You've lived it every tier you raided. You lived it hard and you lived it well.

Why argue based on what a tooltip says? You do realize that the tooltip for Death Strike has similar wording, yet it still procs even if the attack is immuned, right?

I mean, ignoring all semantics, how do you respond to the fact that a dev has acknowledged that it was not intended for HoP to work the way it does on Paragons? That being said, you're using HoP to prevent Bloods from spawning in a way that's not intended. By your very own definition, this is an outright bugging of the game too.

Like I said, double standards simply because it suits your needs. You also seem to have conveniently ignored Mione's post on page 16.

[Reqlol]

So what exactly is the difference with BoPing a tank to avoid the blood mechanic compared to using DI on Razorgore or Yogg again? It's working just like the tooltip on the abilities says they should work and yet both of those were fixed. Also I'd really like to hear your response to Mione's point about Deathstrike as well since tooltips seem to be your only argument at this point aside from the fact that you think that somehow you could magically just kill Hisek and Korven then just use amber on tanks? You really think that you could just magically deal with bloods and amber at the same time and not have issues with the enrage timer?


All that being said, this thread is dumb and you should all feel dumb.

[Ashvael]

[...]
Using HoP on the initial blood spawns accomplishes the same thing that Korven's built in ability accomplishes using nothing other than a built in class. Possible oversight on Blizzard's part? Maybe. Maybe not. Exploit? Nope. We didn't cause any geometry to de-spawn or Skeer not to cast his ability. All we did was follow the rules: the ability clearly says "inflicts physical damage causing....". Solution? Prevent the physical damage. Using HoP of all things, the go-to ability for doing that. And then we get to Korven, use the built in ability the fight provided to prevent the spawn. Very fair and legitimate. Completely within bounds and nothing like the Saranote bomb incident.

Congruence between the two is just... wow I feel sorry for you if you think that. Clearly, things are only black and white in your head if you think in that manner. Even AoE gripping sparks on Heroic Lei Shen is a "gray". So come back when you do Heroic Lei Shen without a pair of AoE grips. Then maybe you'll have a case that wasn't patently absurd, because you my friend, have lived that kind of gray. You lived it on Lei Shen, you lived it on Horridon. You lived it on Dark Shaman, and on Nazgrim. You've lived it every tier you raided. You lived it hard and you lived it well.

Not sure if you need a reading lesson but you clearly missed an and in that sentence. Let's read the sentence together.

Skeer swings his weapon in a mighty arc (that's the action which is followed by 2 reactions),
inflicting Physical damage to the target (reaction 1) and
causing blood creatures to spawn around the room. (reaction 2)

Nothing in this sentence implies that preventing reaction 1 should also prevent reaction 2. It was obviously an oversight and this is exactly the kind of stuff which would get fixed in about 30 minutes if we were to use it during progress. This is me speaking out of experience if you want a "source" on that.

You compare it to Lei Shen and AoE grips. You realise the ability he's using is still happening, right? We're not preventing him from using the ability by using a spell-reflect or something. I don't get your comparison here. Please explain further.

Your comparison to Horridon is pretty much the same crap as with Lei Shen with the only difference being that it's also HoP that is getting used. Horridon still does his attack. Hand of Protection is there to clear the person of physical debuffs like it's supposed to. It's not preventing Horridon from spawning adds or from doing a charge or whatever.

[Skroe]

Why argue based on what a tooltip says? You do realize that the tooltip for Death Strike has similar wording, yet it still procs even if the attack is immuned, right?

Similar, and yet completely different. Let's look at the tooltip for deathstrike:
Focuses dark power into a strike that deals 185% weapon damage plus 499 to an enemy and heals you for 20% of the damage you have sustained from non-player sources during the preceding 5 sec (minimum of at least 7% of your maximum health). This attack cannot be parried.

Now let me edit it in the manner that the Dungeon Journal description for Blood Letting has it written.

Focuses dark power into a strike that deals 185% weapon damage plus 499 to an enemy, causing a heal on you for 20% of the damage you have sustained from non-player sources during the preceding 5 sec (minimum of at least 7% of your maximum health). This attack cannot be parried.


In the Actual Tool top, the wording implies concurency. A and B happen. A being invalid no way implies B being invalid. Thus what yous aid is entirely true.
In my edited tool tip, that would be a violation, because A causes B. This is how Bloodletting is BOTH worded and designed. That's the thing: we're not actually debating sematics. You're trying to deny the reality that the mechanics _is_ that the strike CAUSES the bloodspawn. Until you change that, there is nothing you can say immunizing it.

Now you can have a difference of opinion, and think it shouldn't work like that. Well I also think the US should adopt single payer healthcare. We're all entitled to our opinions. But the reality we have an ability where A causes B, NOT A and B concurrently, and a crappy website called healthcare.gov.

We're not preventing blood spawning by using HoP. We're preventing the strike from causing Physical damage. No physical damage, no bloods, as designed BECAUSE (and we know this), the Kroven ability is the designed counter to the bloods, and does the same thing.

That is where your argument falls apart. If you had your way, if your argument had legitimacy, Bloodletting should cause Blood to spawn even if the tank was running the Korven buff, because the two are indpendent. That is clearly not the design. It may have been unintended to let HoP accomplish the same feat, but it was certainly intended to prevent Bloods from Spawning by using Korven's buff to take no damage from the strike. The existence of the Korven buff, the manner in which it is used, the cooldown, the design of the encounter, make that essentially inarguable.

In terms of HoP's functionally doing the same thing, intent or not, this is not the first time by far that HoP has been used in this fashion, and it certainly isn't the last. So this is much ado about nothing. Until you change the manner in which Bloodletting behaves comprehensively - that is to say, make the Bloodletting a Physical Strike AND a Blood Spawn, rather than what we have as a Physical striking causing a blood spawn - your argument has no merit. You're arguing against the mechanic as it's been implimented. That's not semantics of a tool tip. That's mechanics that the tool tip merely reports.

I mean, ignoring all semantics, how do you respond to the fact that a dev has acknowledged that it was not intended for BoP to work the way it does on Paragons? That being said, you're using HoP to prevent Bloods from spawning in a way that's not intended. By your very own definition, this is an outright bugging of the game too.

Like I said, double standards simply because it suits your needs.

The intent argument is pretty crap and here's why: most fights strats are design DESPITE the intent of the designers, and in this particular case, it's holding it to a bizarre higher standard. I again present you with Heroic Lei Shen. The intent of dealing with Ball Lightning was very clearly not the strat that people utilized. Nor was it the case with Static Shock. Or as I said, how guilds kept one tank on Horridon? You're wanting to apply a different standard here because you felt you wasted time doing something needlessly, and you're covering your pride on it. That's all it is. And the reason is consistency. You yourself, to get to this point, had to have done strats DESPITE intent on a regular basis. Do you keep the Dark Shaman together? Give me a yes or no on that. Do you prevent ravagers from spawning on Nazgrim? Give me a yes or no on that. Do you send hunters and monks up repeatedly on Siegecrafters? Give me a yes or a no. Do you BoP stacks on Thok? Did you utilize Large Anima Golems on Dark Animus Heroic? Give me yes or no for all of these.

That's the problem. You accuse me of a double standard? You ARE the double standard. I'm actually being consistent. I'm saying, this is in no way shape or form, different from the dozens of other cases. But you're saying, no, it's worse, even though in terms of changing the design of the fight, it is barely on the level of what not killing Larges on Dark Animus or the 2 AoE Grip strat was on Lei Shen. That's the real double standard: you decrying something you've routinely practiced.

[Neldarie]

Hand of Purity on Council heroic in ToT, just saying again...

[Deleted]

News just in: this is the thread that never stops giving.

I think I'll end it with a comparison from t14. Sha of fears PS2 buff reset all player CDs. This, due to an oversight, reset daily profession CDs as well.

Fixed.

Admittedly no one is going to win this argument.Maybe if people spent as long on garrosh hc than defending their bugged strat, they'd have it down.

Like me. I could've got at least 25 tweets out in the time I've spent here ;(

[Skroe]

Nothing in this sentence implies that preventing reaction 1 should also prevent reaction 2. It was obviously an oversight and this is exactly the kind of stuff which would get fixed in about 30 minutes if we were to use it during progress. This is me speaking out of experience if you want a "source" on that.

You compare it to Lei Shen and AoE grips. You realise the ability he's using is still happening, right? We're not preventing him from using the ability by using a spell-reflect or something. I don't get your comparison here. Please explain further.

Your comparison to Horridon is pretty much the same crap as with Lei Shen with the only difference being that it's also HoP that is getting used. Horridon still does his attack. Hand of Protection is there to clear the person of physical debuffs like it's supposed to. It's not preventing Horridon from spawning adds or from doing a charge or whatever.

I think I answered the first part of your post above, but I'll explain further on what I mean by Lei Shen.

The central premise of the argument against HoPing the first few bloods (and keep in mind, we're talking a handful of HoP's here), is that it allows killing of Skeer anywhere but first, which has a butterfly effect that changes the course of the fight. Because you can kill Hisek->Rikkal->Korven, you can use the Korven buff to have the tank not take physical damage from the Bloodletting, thus preventing Blood spawns. The net effect is that you can kill Iyyokk and Xaril and Kaztik with no overlap between them. So by doing this, with a few HoPs, you change via this strat, the course of the fight... the entire internal series of events really.The problems change. Change though... not trivialize. You no longer have to deal with for example, Iyyokk's Firey Edge while killing Hisek 4th. As an aside, it's worth noting, had the fight not been set to a fixed order, changes to the course of the fight, would be expected week to week.

I argue, that this is nearly identical to how Lei Shen and Dark Animus were resolved. By doing the 2x AoE Grips and not killing Larges, the course of the fights were completely changed . In Phase 2 Lei Shen, imagine spreading out and using more Cooldowns as the Ball Lightings dropped on the raid and doing it very much like normal mode, were they ungrippable and unstunnable. Imagine single targeting and AoEing them down as they jumped around. However, the grip + stun, made it a rather low damage, extremely controlled phase, running pillar to pillar aside, because the only damage going out from the Ball Lightings is on the 7 players it dropped on. A grip, a stun, and they're dead in 2 GCDs. The net effect? Phase 2, the meat of the fight, is simplified and the course of the fight changes. All you needed was 2 DKs. If you had one, strat didn't work at all.

And Dark Animus? Well everyone knows that one. By not utilizing Larges, mechanics from the fight were eliminated, because it was found to be possible because the extra time from dumping anima in there (Blizzard's justification for the Large's existence) was not needed.

The salient point here is this.
On Dark Animus, Larges Aside, no abilities were outright "prevented" from casting. But the course of the fight was changed by a core strat decision that avoided a mechanic by not activating it's cause.
On Lei Shen, no abilities were prevented from casting. Grip just dealt with the Ball lightnings, as you stated, but the net effect changed the course of the fight.

Here is no different. The strat does not prevent the Blood Letting cast at all. He does the attack. He strikes the tank. Between the time he winds up and lands the strike the tank either gets a HoP or hits his special action button. If you look at a log, the attack goes off, and it hits his target. But because he inflicts 0 physical damage, bloods do not spawn. This is exactly the behavior as if instead of HoP, the tank were to use Korven's buff, designed for this ability in the first place. It's identical in events, just instead of HoP, an ability picked up from a dead boss in the fight.

That's why I think the argument against the strat is farcical. Because the fight has an ability that was built in for use by the tank to do exactly what HoP is briefly used for. And I'm emphasizing briefly, because let's not forget, Korven is out of the fight pretty fast and that tank has that buff before long anyway. Being pissed about HoP actually misses the point, because it's Korven's buff that makes this possible for the raid to do for 75% of Skeer's life.

Now it can be argued that maybe Blood Letting should behave differently. Maybe the Bloods should spawn regardless if the strike causes ANY physical damage. But that is not the behavior of the strike with the Korven buff OR with HoP. By virtue of how the Korven buff functions, we can conclude that is NOT the design's intent. So if folks want to argue that, they need to argue with a change in the design of the fight itself - changing what the Korven buff is purposed for namely - rather than saying HoP is somehow an exploit or a cheese strat. How is it either, when if we blanked out "Hand of Protection" and "Master of Amber", and looked at a log at the series of events, you'd see the exact same thing happen? It simply can't be. It applies a different metric.

And as I said, even if it were changed so that the Blood Letting worked through HoP, dit oesn't change the fact the strong part of the strat is keeping Skeer alive post-korven, to get that Korven buff to simplify him, and all that would do would change how the raid dealt with Blood Letting through about 3.5 minutes into the fight, which isn't a huge problem.

[Redpanda]

from an observers point of view its only "cheesing" when its not convenient to you. No one batted an eye when you could hop or bubble debuffs in tot so why is this any different? but what do i know?

[Basmothh]

Similar, and yet completely different. Let's look at the tooltip for deathstrike:
Focuses dark power into a strike that deals 185% weapon damage plus 499 to an enemy and heals you for 20% of the damage you have sustained from non-player sources during the preceding 5 sec (minimum of at least 7% of your maximum health). This attack cannot be parried.

Now let me edit it in the manner that the Dungeon Journal description for Blood Letting has it written.

Focuses dark power into a strike that deals 185% weapon damage plus 499 to an enemy, causing a heal on you for 20% of the damage you have sustained from non-player sources during the preceding 5 sec (minimum of at least 7% of your maximum health). This attack cannot be parried.

Uh, both tooltips imply that it's the ability that causes the damage and the healing. They certainly don't imply that it's the damage that causes the healing. Both tooltips read to me that it's the ability that deals damage and heals you. Logically, mitigating the damage certainly shouldn't prevent you from getting healed since one isn't based off the other.

Take a statement like 'The bullet deals 90 damage, causing the target to bleed'. It's quite obvious that it's the bullet that causes the bleeding.

Look at Atonement's tooltip for a secondary effect (healing) completely based on the primary effect (damage) - 'When you deal damage... you instantly heal...'.

[Skroe]

Maybe if people spent as long on garrosh hc than defending their bugged strat, they'd have it down.

Not bugged. And we took care of strat stuff for Garrosh last week and before and after every raid. 4 Days a week ftw.

- - - Updated - - -

Ssssh. With enough time, maybe they'll find the obvious exploit on garrosh as well. I don't know if it's public knowledge yet?

Well under your hilariously low-bar definition, whoever figured out kiting of Empowered Whirling Corruption adds, already did that. Sooo... mission accomplished?

[Deleted]

We're all cheering you on Tyranny. Use the kiting adds exploit. Do you classify only having 7 at range for the weapons an exploit too?

[Skroe]

Uh, both tooltips imply that it's the ability that causes the damage and the healing. They certainly don't imply that it's the damage that causes the healing. Both tooltips read to me that it's the ability that deals damage and heals you. Logically, mitigating the damage certainly shouldn't prevent you from getting healed since one isn't based off the other.

Take a statement like 'The bullet deals 90 damage, causing the target to bleed'. It's quite obvious that it's the bullet that causes the bleeding.

Look at Atonement's tooltip for a secondary effect (healing) completely based on the primary effect (damage) - 'When you deal damage... you instantly heal...'.

No way. Noooo way. And implies concurrency. Causes implies causality. They mean two very different things. In the first case, I shouldn't be surprised if it heals. In the second case, it absolutely should not. And regardless of the semantics, as you say, the design of Blood Letting is clearly "causes", as evidenced by what happens when you have the tank use the Korven buff on himself when it is about to hit (no blood spawn). In both word in action, the Strike Causes the bloods to spawn.

It's very hard to argue that wasn't intended. Or are you trying to argue that now? Because if you are, you're wasting your time. It's pretty self evident that the intent for the interaction between Korven's buff and Skeer's Blood Letting is exactly as it works in game, never mind tool tips. Prevent the damage, you prevent the spawn. That's the foundation of how Korven's buff is designed to solve Blood Letting.

HoP does the same thing, so what's your argument? You're pretty much arguing for a design change to Blood Letting that would cause a change to Korven's buff too. In that case, there is essentially no point to Korven's buff besides... what... 2 uses on Kaz'tik? Clearly, that wasn't the ability's sole intent. The intent was to prevent blood letting using it, otherwise it would be the only Boss Ability in the fight that had like, 2 uses out of it, and it would be for a tank to cast on other people, of all things.

You see how many logical hoops you have to jump through to conclude it's intent wasn't anything other than the tank using it during Blood Letting (incidentally, Skeer is an extremely hard hitting mob too)? I mean we can get out Occam's Razor here while we're at it. Is that likely? There is a way to solve one of the heals in the fight (the Encase in Amber, via Strong Legs). Would there not logically be a solution for the second of the heals in the fight? Korven's buff is it.

So if you want Bloodletting's design to change, come out and say it. And least you'd be honest. Because using HoP, is entirely consistent with the design of Bloodletting as it exists right now. All I have to do, is point to how Korven's buff works and identically interacts with Bloodletting. As designed the prevention of the damage, prevents the bloods. That is the "solution" to that heal, just as Strong Legs is the "solution" to Korven's Encase in Amber.

- - - Updated - - -

We're all cheering you on Tyranny. Use the kiting adds exploit. Do you classify only having 7 at range for the weapons an exploit too?

Clearly. Along with Rogues using Goblin Gliders off of the Iron Star caster guys.

[Reqlol]

I think I answered the first part of your post above, but I'll explain further on what I mean by Lei Shen.

I argue, that this is nearly identical to how Lei Shen and Dark Animus were resolved. By doing the 2x AoE Grips and not killing Larges, the course of the fights were completely changed . In Phase 2 Lei Shen, imagine spreading out and using more Cooldowns as the Ball Lightings dropped on the raid and doing it very much like normal mode, were they ungrippable and unstunnable. Imagine single targeting and AoEing them down as they jumped around. However, the grip + stun, made it a rather low damage, extremely controlled phase, running pillar to pillar aside, because the only damage going out from the Ball Lightings is on the 7 players it dropped on. A grip, a stun, and they're dead in 2 GCDs. The net effect? Phase 2, the meat of the fight, is simplified and the course of the fight changes. All you needed was 2 DKs. If you had one, strat didn't work at all.

You do realize how insane this argument sounds right? Having two DKs in the raid doesn't magically make the ball lightnings not spawn, it just changes the difficulty to something else - instead of spreading at random and healing through the ball lightnings while they're killed you position in a nearly perfect circle around the boss to prevent people from getting killed when they spawn while keeping them in range of grip while dealing with his other mechanics normally. In the case of Paragons you completely ignore the difficulty of Hisek (which is essentially all of the difficulty of the beginning of the fight) on top of ignoring the Xaril/Iyyokk/Kaztik combos which are the hardest part of the fight in exchange for a moderate amount of tank damage for like 2 minutes? Ok.jpg - the only truly comparable instance that happened this expansion was (as someone mentioned earlier) using Purity on Frostbitten people during Council of Elders. That was promptly fixed so it seems like nothing more than a double standard on Blizzards part to not fix this.

[Dracodraco]

Aside from all this arguing back and forth, out of interest, people keep randomely quoting "devs stated this was unintended but won't be fixed" - yet I haven't seen any source apart from the guy posting it say he won't reveal it as he spoke to the dev personally? Since when has that counted as proof <.<. Does that mean I can claim basicly anything is intended/unintended, slap a "My Dev friend told me so" onto it, and it can used as an argument :3?

[Skroe]

You do realize how insane this argument sounds right? Having two DKs in the raid doesn't magically make the ball lightnings not spawn, it just changes the difficulty to something else - instead of spreading at random and healing through the ball lightnings while they're killed you position in a nearly perfect circle around the boss to prevent people from getting killed when they spawn while keeping them in range of grip while dealing with his other mechanics normally. In the case of Paragons you completely ignore the difficulty of Hisek (which is essentially all of the difficulty of the beginning of the fight) on top of ignoring the Xaril/Iyyokk/Kaztik combos which are the hardest part of the fight in exchange for a moderate amount of tank damage for like 2 minutes? Ok.jpg - the only truly comparable instance that happened this expansion was (as someone mentioned earlier) using Purity on Frostbitten people during Council of Elders. That was promptly fixed so it seems like nothing more than a double standard on Blizzards part to not fix this.

But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying using that strat, with the grips, cuts down and largely solves the Ball Lighting problem. Dealing with 7 balls that can be gripped and globaled, is a lot simplier than dealing with 15 that can't be. It changes the course of the fight. It's a butterfly effect cause by a class ability, that probably wasn't explicitly intended but was created by some ingenious raiders.

This is no different. The strat does not prevent Bloodletting. The strike goes off. It just does no damage because of the HoP or Korven buff. And because there is no damage, there is no blood. That is how blood's don't spawn if you use the Korven buff on the tank as the strike is about to hit, and it's how the blood's don't spawn if you use HoP. It's the exact same thing.

We're not preventing Skeer from casting Bloodletting. There is just a confusion on folks about how Bloodletting works. The physical damage is supposed to cause the bloods spawning. No physical damage, no bloods. That is how the Korven buff was designed to interact with the fight - to "resolve" that heal, just as Strong legs was designed to "resolve" Korven's Encase in Amber.

Now there is a difference of opinion if this should be the case - some folks clearly think blood SHOULD spawn regardless. That's a design change. There is no evidence that that is how the mechanic is supposed to work. I think the body of the evidence is firmly on the side of causality - that A (the strike) causes B (the bloods) when damage occurs, and that Korven buff is the built in solution to that, and that the behavior that we see, underscored by how it's written up in the dungeon journal, is entirely expected, as designed and legitimate.

Otherwise what's the built in solution to the heal the bloods provide? There is one for Koven, why not for Skeer? Seems very unlikey, considering they are the two heals in the fight. What else would Korven's buff be used for? Merely the two Mesmerizes on Kaz'tik? No way.

The anti-HoP argument would have a point if we prevented Skeer from even CASTING Bloodletting. That would be what you're saying. That would be illegitimate. But we don't. We let him cast it. We just don't let him hit the tank for anything, which prevents the bloods, because it is the dealing of physical damage that causes bloods to spawn. And this being the exact manner in which the Korven buff prevents Blood from spawning, it's a hard case to make that it's illegitimate. It's the exact same behavior.

[Neldarie]

It is very different however. Nobody gives a shit about stuff when Tyranny does it. Yet everyone does when Method/Paragon/w-e are going for the world first.

Just ask yourself one simple question. Should a 13th heroic boss in the instance be on the same retard level of difficulty as say Malkorok to begin with? Well thats what the HoP approach does to it.

[Dracodraco]

Hm. Skroe, you're arguing that if there's no physical damage no bloods spawn, and that's how HOP works - but to my knowledge, even if fully absorbing the damage (disc priest, blood DK etc), you will still cause bloods to spawn even without damage happening =P. Thus the trigger would be the hit landing, not the damage happening, no?

It is very different however. Nobody gives a shit about stuff when Tyranny does it. Yet everyone does when Method/Paragon/w-e are going for the world first.

Just ask yourself one simple question. Should a 13th heroic boss in the instance be on the same retard level of difficulty as say Malkorok to begin with? Well thats what the HoP approach does to it.

You're severely overestimating how easy the fight becomes if you think it drops to the level of Malkorok with HOP =P. It's still above Siegecrafter with the midwinter tactic in difficulty. Or atleast, it is when you kill skeer 4th (people keep mentioning leaving him up even longer, but thats too unstable to be worth it to us :/).

Also, people keep mentioning how you skip the Kaztik/lyokuk/Xaril combo with this - how on earth does anyone ever get that combo, considering Kazroc is left up alive the entire fight? It's Kazroc/Lyokuk/Xaril, or Kazroc/Kaztik/Lyokuk, or Kazroc/Kaztik/Xaril :<. Might just be someone who misspelt (both start with Kaz), but yea.