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  1. #1

    What can The Old Gods tell us of EXP 5? Let's analyse.

    What ho,

    So I'm sitting here, thinking about the next expansion. Shocker, I know.
    One of the prevalent theories online is that we'll be going to pay a visit to N'Zoth.

    (Before anyone goes "Lol, you said Burning Legion!", I'll just remind you that I believe the Legion is a sort of framework narrative. We could be fighting both Azshara and N'Zoth before the Legion crisis is over.)

    But what can the Old Gods actually tell us of the next expansion? After all, they never seem to shut up. I'll link a few quotes and highlight some words below.


    Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron:

    This is basically Yogg-Saron in the form of a box.

    • At the bottom of the ocean even light must die...
    • The silent, sleeping, staring houses in the backwoods always dream... It would be merciful to tear them down...
    • There is no sharp distinction between the real and the unreal...
    • Even death may die...
    • There is a little lamb lost in dark woods...
    • All places, all things have souls... All souls can be devoured...
    • What can change the nature of a man?
    • The stars sweep chill currents that make men shiver in the dark...
    • Do you dream while you sleep or is it an escape from the horrors of reality?
    • Look around... They will all betray you... Flee screaming into the black forest...
    • In the land of Ny'alotha there is only sleep...
    • In the sleeping city of Ny'alotha walk only mad things.
    • Ny'alotha is a city of old, terrible, unnumbered crimes...
    • Y'knath k'th'rygg k'yi mrr'ungha gr'mula...
    • The void sucks at your soul. It is content to feast slowly...
    • The drowned god's heart is black ice...
    • It is standing right behind you... Do not move... Do not breathe...
    • Have you had the dream again? A black goat with seven eyes that watches from the outside.
    • In the sunken city, he lays dreaming.
    • Open me! Open me! Open me! Then only will you know peace.
    • You resist... You cling to your life as if it actually matters... You will learn...
    • The tortured spirits of your ancestors cling to you, screaming in silence. Apparently they are quite numerous.
    • The fish know all the secrets. They know the cold. They know the dark.
    • The giant rook watches from the dead trees. Nothing breathes beneath his shadow.
    • Beneath the shadow of the darkened spire, there is no light, no mercy, only void, and the chaos within.
    • You will all be alone in the end.



    Xal'atoh, Desecrated Image of Gorehowl:

    This is basically Y'Shaarj in the form of a weapon.

    • With each threat unraveled, a step closer to my realm.
    • Another blemish on your soul.
    • You will rest in Ny'alotha.
    • You should kill them all. You must kill them all.
    • Eyes are the windows to the soul. Shatter them forever.
    • Pluck their wings. Leave them broken.
    • Pay the cost of greatness.
    • All should bow before you. Make them!
    • All that you have accomplished, all that you have won, yet still you lick the boots of kings.
    • Carve more slowly, that I may feed.
    • Embrace your rage.
    • Caress your fear.
    • Gorge your hatred.
    • Voice your doubts.
    • When you walk among the black forest, you will see.
    • I can taste the essence of your soul... it is sweet...



    C'thun

    Not much going on here. C'thun was a long time ago, and they might not yet have pinned down what they wanted the Whispers of the Old Gods to reveal back then. Instead, C'thun mostly goes on about betrayal and discouraging the player - a re-occurring theme.

    • Death is close...
    • You are already dead.
    • Your courage will fail.
    • Your friends will abandon you.
    • You will betray your friends.
    • You will die.
    • You are weak.
    • Your heart will explode.


    So there you have it. Here are my thoughts:

    Emerald Dream Connections?
    To me, a lot of it really sounds like a description of what we know as "The Dark Below", and the Emerald Dream. All the references to sleeping and dreaming. We know the Rift of Aln within the Dream is likely where N'Zoth accesses it, from the Rift within the Maelstrom.

    Old God in the Eastern Kingdoms?
    We had an Old God in the west, one in the north, and one in the south. N'Zoth might be in the middle, and there could be one in the east.
    However, it should be noted that all of them were probably much closer before the Sundering, when the continents drifted apart.

    If there is one in the east, then that could potentially be an argument for why we won't be going to visit N'Zoth in the next expansion. After all, he seems to be the central one, mentioned by the other Old Gods. The main dude. Xal'atoh says "with each threat unravelled, a step closer to my realm", which could mean "with each Old God beaten, you come closer to me". So maybe we need to finish the potential Old God in the East before taking on N'Zoth, the central one?

    Is Y'shaarj really N'Zoth?
    Could Y'shaarj even be N'Zoth, but as interpreted by the peoples of Pandaria? After all, there is a strong connection between the waters of Pandaria and the Well of Eternity. If Y'shaarj is around those waters, then perhaps he was at the centre of the world, where the Well of Eternity used to be? Plus, Xal'atoh says "closer to MY realm", but was introduced as a weapon after the events of Pandaria. We sure aren't going into Y'shaarj's realm, if there even is one. So who is the Old God saying "My realm"?

    On top of that, the Puzzle-Box refers to a "black goat with seven eyes". Sounds pretty much like Y'shaarj who is said to have had seven heads, no?

    Dark Forest?
    And what the heck is this "forest" the whispers keep mentioning? Is it a corrupted forest within the Emerald Dream? Is it a metaphor for kelp at the bottom of the ocean? Is it a metaphor for us? Is it a place on Azeroth?

    Give me what you've got!
    Last edited by Mojo Risin; 2013-11-01 at 11:03 AM.
    "Good morning!" said Bilbo, and he meant it. The sun was shining, and the grass was very green. But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out farther than the brim of his shady hat.

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  2. #2
    Herald of the Titans miffy23's Avatar
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    Not to poop on your parade, but this is has kind of been chewed through.

    All of the Old Gods in game hint at the next god in line. C'thun hinted at Death itself, which is Yogg Saron, often called the god of death by NPCs in Wotlk. Yogg Saron rants about the Cataclysm while u kill him, pointing towards N'zoth/Deathwing.

    The puzzlebox clues lead to this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS2Tik9URnM

    Both puzzlebox and Y'rsaaj whispers point towards the bottom of the ocean, Ny'alotha, which may be either an Old God itself or a Titan prison, or an Old God "citadel" of sorts, where N'zoth himself rests.
    This obviously points towards Azshara and the ocean.

    It is absolutely clear that we WILL deal with this old god, whether it's N'zoth or Ny'alotha, and it will be connected to Azshara. Whether that is next expansion is totally up in the air, there are enough hints for at least 5 different themes for the expansion.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Not to poop on your parade, but this is has kind of been chewed through.

    All of the Old Gods in game hint at the next god in line. C'thun hinted at Death itself, which is Yogg Saron, often called the god of death by NPCs in Wotlk. Yogg Saron rants about the Cataclysm while u kill him, pointing towards N'zoth/Deathwing.

    The puzzlebox clues lead to this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS2Tik9URnM

    Both puzzlebox and Y'rsaaj whispers point towards the bottom of the ocean, Ny'alotha, which may be either an Old God itself or a Titan prison, or an Old God "citadel" of sorts, where N'zoth himself rests.
    This obviously points towards Azshara and the ocean.

    It is absolutely clear that we WILL deal with this old god, whether it's N'zoth or Ny'alotha, and it will be connected to Azshara. Whether that is next expansion is totally up in the air, there are enough hints for at least 5 different themes for the expansion.
    I think that theory falls on the fact that Yogg-Saron, though the puzzle box, also mentions the ocean and Ny'alotha. If they hint towards the next Old God, why would he even involve N'Zoth and not just stick with Y'shaarj? It seems more likely that all the old gods refer to the central one in some way. With the possible exception of C'thun, who was underdeveloped back in the early days of WoW.
    "Good morning!" said Bilbo, and he meant it. The sun was shining, and the grass was very green. But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out farther than the brim of his shady hat.

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  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Risin View Post
    I think that theory falls on the fact that Yogg-Saron, though the puzzle box, also mentions the ocean and Ny'alotha. If they hint towards the next Old God, why would he even involve N'Zoth and not just stick with Y'shaarj? It seems more likely that all the old gods refer to the central one in some way. With the possible exception of C'thun, who was underdeveloped back in the early days of WoW.
    Doesn't fall at all, it's why I believe Ny'alotha is in fact a sort of Old God city, a city that is also a an Old God at the same time. Possibly what Naz'jatar turned into.

    C'thun - Cthulu
    Yogg-Saron - Yogg-Sothoth
    N'zoth - Northot
    Ny'alotha - Noygtha, Nyghoggua (all related to abyss, underwater, shapeshifting)

    Biggest hint that they're all connected in WoW lore, not just by name coincidence?

    Northot: A mysterious entity related to Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurath and Azathoth.

    Shub-Niggurath is the black goat with 7 heads, mentioned in the puzzlebox.
    Yog-Sothoth. Yogg-Saron.
    Azathoth. Azeroth.

    We WILL face whatever Ny'alotha is, N'zoth isn't gone, and the question what Azeroth is exactly still remains to be answered. Wrathion's dialogue about the "final Titan" and what they "forgot" heavily suggests there's something very important lost in the mists of time concerning our world.

    Azeroth is a Titan prison for the origin of all Old Gods, Azeroth itself, the original "Old God" and source of all Chaos. Or maybe Azeroth is an egg for the "final Titan", maybe the Old Gods are experiments by the Titans in an effort to create something that could defeat Sargeras, before he and his Legion destroy them all.

    I forgot the best interpretation for Ny'alotha from the Lovecraft universe:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyarlathotep
    "The Crawling Chaos" "God of a Thousand Forms"
    Father: Azatoth

    Wow translation: crawling Old God city at the bottom of the ocean, it's father: Azeroth
    Last edited by miffy23; 2013-11-01 at 11:27 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Doesn't fall at all, it's why I believe Ny'alotha is in fact a sort of Old God city, a city that is also a an Old God at the same time. Possibly what Naz'jatar turned into.

    C'thun - Cthulu
    Yogg-Saron - Yogg-Sothoth
    N'zoth - Northot
    Ny'alotha - Noygtha, Nyghoggua (all related to abyss, underwater, shapeshifting)

    Biggest hint that they're all connected in WoW lore, not just by name coincidence?

    Northot: A mysterious entity related to Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurath and Azathoth.

    Shub-Niggurath is the black goat with 7 heads, mentioned in the puzzlebox.
    Yog-Sothoth. Yogg-Saron.
    Azathoth. Azeroth.

    We WILL face whatever Ny'alotha is, N'zoth isn't gone, and the question what Azeroth is exactly still remains to be answered. Wrathion's dialogue about the "final Titan" and what they "forgot" heavily suggests there's something very important lost in the mists of time concerning our world.

    Azeroth is a Titan prison for the origin of all Old Gods, Azeroth itself, the original "Old God" and source of all Chaos. Or maybe Azeroth is an egg for the "final Titan", maybe the Old Gods are experiments by the Titans in an effort to create something that could defeat Sargeras, before he and his Legion destroy them all.
    I love and agree with all of what you just said, even though it sort of digressed from what we actually disagreed on, in my opinion.

    I would be ecstatic over going down to an underwater / underground realm full of Old God lore.
    "Good morning!" said Bilbo, and he meant it. The sun was shining, and the grass was very green. But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out farther than the brim of his shady hat.

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  6. #6
    FFS, we already had 2 "old gods" expansions, how about something new ?!

  7. #7
    Herald of the Titans miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molestron View Post
    FFS, we already had 2 "old gods" expansions, how about something new ?!
    Old Gods are a core part of WoW, they're the meta story and meta antagonists next to the Legion/Sargeras. They won't go away until WoW stops, basically.
    As the story unfolds and we learn more about the Titan - Old God relationship i'm sure we'll get to some kind of conclusion about them and stop fighting them every expansion tho.

    I personally love them. I wouldn't mind having an expansion full of them.

    You seem to forget tho that pretty much every expansion had a TON of content that had nothing to do with Old Gods, they just figured as some of the antagonists. Usually involved with the root of all evil so-to-speak. Hmm there seems to be a trend there...

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    You seem to forget tho that pretty much every expansion had a TON of content that had nothing to do with Old Gods, they just figured as some of the antagonists. Usually involved with the root of all evil so-to-speak. Hmm there seems to be a trend there...
    Vanilla: C'thun. Small references to the titans and old gods
    TBC: Not much at all, if any.
    WoTLK: Titans and old gods all over the place, paralel to the scourge
    Cata: All about titans and old gods
    MoP: Even more titans and old gods

    The only expansion that didn't have a lot of old gods was TBC.

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molestron View Post
    Vanilla: C'thun. Small references to the titans and old gods
    TBC: Not much at all, if any.
    WoTLK: Titans and old gods all over the place, paralel to the scourge
    Cata: All about titans and old gods
    MoP: Even more titans and old gods

    The only expansion that didn't have a lot of old gods was TBC.
    So while you were leveling in WotlK, Vanilla, Cata and MoP you were exclusively fighting old god minions? ^^ No creatures, any of the literally hundreds of other factions and NPCs, just Old God stuff? xD

    Deal with the fact that Old Gods are at the very core of WoW, they've been built up as the main antagonists for years now, and it IS leading towards something. I can understand why you feel it's a bit much if you don't like them. Hell I'd be bored and annoyed if we had 3 expansions of Legion stuff myself. Comes down to taste in the end, like anything else.

    However my point still stands. Yeah there was a ton of Titan and Old God stuff during the last 3 expansions, however there was a huge portion of content that had nothing to do with either.

  10. #10
    Epic! Bosbeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molestron View Post
    Vanilla: C'thun. Small references to the titans and old gods
    TBC: Not much at all, if any.
    WoTLK: Titans and old gods all over the place, paralel to the scourge
    Cata: All about titans and old gods
    MoP: Even more titans and old gods

    The only expansion that didn't have a lot of old gods was TBC.
    Vanilla: Many, many villains in order to 'estabalise' the wide variety of villains.
    TBC: No Old Gods
    WotLK: partially, yes. That entire Iron Dwarves storyline brings the connection between Titans and Old Gods into the light.
    Cata: Responsible for the villain's corruption and servants are noticeable
    MoP: unexpected but reasonable, mixture of Titans and Old God stories.

  11. #11
    Over 9000! Arbs's Avatar
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    Sea = Queen Azshara, Ny'loatha = N'Zoth, Black Forest = (Hopefully) Rift of Aln = Emerald Dream.

    I rest my case .

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Doesn't fall at all, it's why I believe Ny'alotha is in fact a sort of Old God city, a city that is also a an Old God at the same time. Possibly what Naz'jatar turned into.

    C'thun - Cthulu
    Yogg-Saron - Yogg-Sothoth
    N'zoth - Northot
    Ny'alotha - Noygtha, Nyghoggua (all related to abyss, underwater, shapeshifting)

    Biggest hint that they're all connected in WoW lore, not just by name coincidence?

    Northot: A mysterious entity related to Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurath and Azathoth.

    Shub-Niggurath is the black goat with 7 heads, mentioned in the puzzlebox.
    Yog-Sothoth. Yogg-Saron.
    Azathoth. Azeroth.

    We WILL face whatever Ny'alotha is, N'zoth isn't gone, and the question what Azeroth is exactly still remains to be answered. Wrathion's dialogue about the "final Titan" and what they "forgot" heavily suggests there's something very important lost in the mists of time concerning our world.

    Azeroth is a Titan prison for the origin of all Old Gods, Azeroth itself, the original "Old God" and source of all Chaos. Or maybe Azeroth is an egg for the "final Titan", maybe the Old Gods are experiments by the Titans in an effort to create something that could defeat Sargeras, before he and his Legion destroy them all.

    I forgot the best interpretation for Ny'alotha from the Lovecraft universe:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyarlathotep
    "The Crawling Chaos" "God of a Thousand Forms"
    Father: Azatoth

    Wow translation: crawling Old God city at the bottom of the ocean, it's father: Azeroth
    I would agree, Azeroth could be a Old God prison or Could hold the key to the final Titan. This titan could be the one that we need to help us against Sargeras.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Molestron View Post
    Vanilla: C'thun. Small references to the titans and old gods
    TBC: Not much at all, if any.
    WoTLK: Titans and old gods all over the place, paralel to the scourge
    Cata: All about titans and old gods
    MoP: Even more titans and old gods

    The only expansion that didn't have a lot of old gods was TBC.
    more like
    Vanilla - c'thun, 1boss hardly any old god or titan lore.
    TBC - bird dudes want to revive an old god, hardly any old god lore.
    WOTLK - Yogg'saron and ulduar (which is the most popular raid) a lot of old god lore but the expansion was much more scourge based. one old god patch =/= old god expansion.
    Cataclysm - tentacles and faceless around but you don't hear about the old god until your in dragon soul, no actual old god just lore that deathwing is controlled by one. Not an old god expansion.
    MoP - First patch talks about sha being from a dead old god, they are a completely new take on old god lore so its hardly the same as cata old god lore, ToT gives a very tiny reference to people who killed ra'den and its not even confirmed that its old god lore. Garrosh has an old gods heart, the story focuses much more on garrosh and the war than the old god.

    Just because old gods are hinted at does not mean the entire expansion old god lore only.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbsbear View Post
    Sea = Queen Azshara, Ny'loatha = N'Zoth, Black Forest = (Hopefully) Rift of Aln = Emerald Dream.

    I rest my case .
    Do we have any direct mentions of this Black Forest elsewhere? There's the Blackwald in Gilneas, but I think the black forest is more in connection to the Maelstrom and what's below it.
    "Good morning!" said Bilbo, and he meant it. The sun was shining, and the grass was very green. But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out farther than the brim of his shady hat.

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  14. #14
    Plot twist: There was one old god, titans killed him. Now we have 5 of them.
    /thread

  15. #15
    Over 9000! Arbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Risin View Post
    Do we have any direct mentions of this Black Forest elsewhere? There's the Blackwald in Gilneas, but I think the black forest is more in connection to the Maelstrom and what's below it.
    Well the Rift of Aln is suppose to be the Maelstrom in the Emerald Dream. So we would hope if the Black Forest is connected to the Maelstrom than it should be connected to the Rift of Aln.

  16. #16
    Stood in the Fire Snuglz's Avatar
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    This is what the old gods are all about. Mystery, hints, secrets. It is the core reason they are so interesting other than all the questions we have about them. They are the core of WoW just as much as Titans and even the Alliance/Horde.

    We need to explore the areas of lore that need to be dealt with. N'zoth, I think for most of us, is the next logical old god we must deal with. He has more connections in the bad things in Azeroth than ANY other old god.
    *If am I wrong there and there was an Old God that has actually done alot more to mess up Azeroth then please let me know.

    The one likely place that ppl thought an Old God would be in the East was the Whispering Forest but blizzard confirmed that it was not a an old god that is under there. N'zoth as far as we know now, is the most powerful old god we have ever faced and with all his ties into different things, I could bring in alot of things to deal with.

    Azshara/N'zoth expansion all the way!!

  17. #17
    Herald of the Titans miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snuglz View Post
    This is what the old gods are all about. Mystery, hints, secrets. It is the core reason they are so interesting other than all the questions we have about them. They are the core of WoW just as much as Titans and even the Alliance/Horde.

    We need to explore the areas of lore that need to be dealt with. N'zoth, I think for most of us, is the next logical old god we must deal with. He has more connections in the bad things in Azeroth than ANY other old god.
    *If am I wrong there and there was an Old God that has actually done alot more to mess up Azeroth then please let me know.

    The one likely place that ppl thought an Old God would be in the East was the Whispering Forest but blizzard confirmed that it was not a an old god that is under there. N'zoth as far as we know now, is the most powerful old god we have ever faced and with all his ties into different things, I could bring in alot of things to deal with.

    Azshara/N'zoth expansion all the way!!
    No you are quite correct, N'zoth is the ultimate big baddy in terms of Old Gods thusfar, unless they introduce something new.
    It even states ingame that C'thun and Yogg-saron teamed up against N'zoth eons ago, fighting for control of Azeroth. That should give you an inkling about how big of a threat he is.

    From the Warlord Zon'ozz dungeon journal entry (Dragon Soul):
    Countless ages ago, Warlord Zon'ozz and his soldiers waged endless war against the forces of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron. Millennia have passed, but the warlord still serves the chaotic might of the Old God N'Zoth. Deathwing has now unleashed this legendary faceless one to crush the defenders of Wyrmrest Temple.


  18. #18
    Did we ever get the answer to where Pandaria's enchanted waters came from?
    "Good morning!" said Bilbo, and he meant it. The sun was shining, and the grass was very green. But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out farther than the brim of his shady hat.

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  19. #19
    High Overlord NiceJazzhands's Avatar
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    There are definitely a lot of keywords that seem to repeat themselves as far as the old gods are concerned. Another thing I'd like to mention is a quote from the Garrosh fight. "No, it cannot end like this. What I...what I have seen? Nooooo! This world, is my destiny! My, destiny."

    What has he seen? It isn't logical that he would be referring to what's going on right in front of him (we're fighting him) because "have" implies past tense. You could infer that the bit about his destiny could simply be because he knows he's lost his chance at world domination, but the sentence before it makes the possibilities a lot more interesting. Has he seen the fate and control of Azeroth in someone else's hands?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Risin View Post
    Did we ever get the answer to where Pandaria's enchanted waters came from?
    "In the years that the Titans were on Azeroth, the Vale of Eternal Blossoms was a place the Titans created and experiment with forms of life, like Un'Goro Crater and Sholazar Basin."

    It could be that the titans created and used the waters in the vale in order to create forms of life in Pandaria.
    Jazzhands <Sacred Samophlange>, 6/14H, US-Skywall
    "Query? What do you think I'm here for, tea and biscuits? Spill the beans already!"

  20. #20
    Stood in the Fire Snuglz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiceJazzhands View Post
    There are definitely a lot of keywords that seem to repeat themselves as far as the old gods are concerned. Another thing I'd like to mention is a quote from the Garrosh fight. "No, it cannot end like this. What I...what I have seen? Nooooo! This world, is my destiny! My, destiny."

    What has he seen? It isn't logical that he would be referring to what's going on right in front of him (we're fighting him) because "have" implies past tense. You could infer that the bit about his destiny could simply be because he knows he's lost his chance at world domination, but the sentence before it makes the possibilities a lot more interesting. Has he seen the fate and control of Azeroth in someone else's hands?
    Wasn't it explained what he saw? in Phase 3 starts he says this:
    "The True Horde WILL come to pass. I have SEEN it. IT HAS SHOWN ME. I HAVE SEEN MOUNTAINS OF SKULLS AND RIVERS OF BLOOD. AND I WILL... HAVE... MY... WORLD!"

    I don't think he was shown anything other than what he really wanted and what the heart of Y'shaarj empowered him to see.

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