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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Amorise View Post
    Which was our point way back. Demon Hunters would fit perfectly as a 4th spec for Warlocks since the Warlock class has already cannibalized the Demon Hunter and directly taken its iconic skills. A 4th tank spec "Demon Hunter" that uses Dark Apotheosis as the core ability as a tank stance with a fleshed out melee combat system. Could retain some of the skills it would share with Demonology like Immolation Aura and Demonic Fury but instead of cashing in Fury for offense, could use Fury to fuel magical barriers and evasion for defense.

    All it would be missing is glaives. You'd have your light armored demonic empowered melee combatant without having to create a whole other redundant class.
    My point is completely the opposite though I understand I conveyed it terribly in that post.

    My point was that we haven't needed a single new class since Vanilla WoW but if we ARE to get a new class, it can be ANY class regardless of how much of it's abilities might already be in play by already existing classes.

    Monks were added to the game with almost NOTHING unique. From stuns, to ccs, to burst, to anti-cc ALL of it has been done in so many different forms and with class homogenization EVERY class has some form of another classes' ability or another. Adding a new class need not be hurt at all by already existing abilities.

    All it would take fit demon hunters right in is to make the warlock's metamorphosis more demonic. The warlock itself is as demonic as they get. A demon hunter, in principle, is close to a rogue who's discipline has allowed him/her to control it's beast and transform at will into a demon that fights demons, not controls them.
    Last edited by Flaks; 2013-11-03 at 02:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    My point was that we haven't needed a single new class since Vanilla WoW but if we ARE to get a new class, it can be ANY class regardless of how much of it's abilities might already be in play by already existing classes.
    It can be...yes.

    Blizzard isn't going to water down an existing class, nor is it going to spend time, money and effort creating what already exists. The DH has been mined for looks, theme, abilities for the Warlock for 6 years. Why do you think they'll stop now? Why do you think they'll strip everything the Warlock has taken from the DH?

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-11-03 at 09:56 AM.

  3. #263
    DHs and warlocks are different, it'll be like what they did for monks.

  4. #264
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    My point is completely the opposite though I understand I conveyed it terribly in that post.

    My point was that we haven't needed a single new class since Vanilla WoW but if we ARE to get a new class, it can be ANY class regardless of how much of it's abilities might already be in play by already existing classes.

    Monks were added to the game with almost NOTHING unique. From stuns, to ccs, to burst, to anti-cc ALL of it has been done in so many different forms and with class homogenization EVERY class has some form of another classes' ability or another. Adding a new class need not be hurt at all by already existing abilities.

    All it would take fit demon hunters right in is to make the warlock's metamorphosis more demonic. The warlock itself is as demonic as they get. A demon hunter, in principle, is close to a rogue who's discipline has allowed him/her to control it's beast and transform at will into a demon that fights demons, not controls them.
    Um, the Monk was the first all melee 3 role hybrid. Its healing spec is probably one of the most innovative healing specs in WoW's class system. Additionally, its tanking spec operates like a DPS spec, and its the only tank that can DW in the game. The roll system gave Monks a lot of mobility that I definitely missed when I was playing other classes.

    Finally the Monk gameplay system was far more fast paced than any other class. Unlike other melee classes which are heavily CD based, the Monk always has a button to press and a move to do. I found it almost impossible to go back to my Enhancement shaman because I became used to always having an ability ready to go. The CD-heavy enhancement and warrior playstyles seemed horribly slow to me in comparison.

    The point is the Monk brought a LOT of unique things to the game, and it was only able to do that because its core concept from WC3 was wide open for exploitation.

  5. #265
    Draenor has nothing to do with demon hunters. The leak could be dead wrong and we continue on into the future... but assuming it's correct then there is literally zero reason for demon hunters to be implemented in this expansion.

    ^ Father and son. Winning.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Aren't you making an assumption that Blizzard can't give them what they'd need as part of the 4th spec?
    EJL
    That would assume that Blizzard wants Warlocks to be melee in the first place. There is absolutely no indication of that being the case, ever. Even with Dark Apotheosis, it is clear that the Warlock does not become a Melee fighter, they're ranged casters with defensive abilities and a taunt. That's pretty much the extent that Warlocks will get in terms of tanking, there isn't going to be further exploration any more than they would make Discipline or Mistwalker a full DPS spec.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Then they'd still have a huge crossover with Warlocks and so be unsuited for a place as a distinct class. As a spec of a new class...sure. But what would the unifying theme be? And could the DH draw upon its iconic abilities without that demon them Warlocks have? Sure...maybe you could get Demon Hunter, Blademaster and Dark Ranger into the game as a class...but woudl it still be WOWs DH?
    Hunters can tame animals, Druids turn into animals. There is crossover no matter what way you look at it. Hunters tame bears, Druids turn into bears. Hunters tame cats, Druids turn into cats. Hunters can even take on 'aspects' of an animal, giving them passive abilities. The core problem with the Warlock's pure association with demons is that there has never been any class in WoW that has challenged that relationship. Demons are not something that Warlocks have sole property over. They are demon summoners who draw upon demonic sources for their spells, that is all.

    Besides, Warlock 4th spec discussion has nothing to do with Demon Hunters. They aren't the same class, you're the only one who thinks so.

  7. #267
    every expansion i encountered lots of mistypes.
    Blood Crusade
    nordrend
    catalyst
    mystic pandaria.
    now worlds of draenor

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Caliph View Post
    Nothing else says outland/draenor, burning legion than illidan/demon hunter.

    Bring it on.

    A DW 1h crossbow spec, dw 1h warglaive spec, some kind of demon form healing spec using demonic energies.

    yes yes please.

    Anyone else post your demon hunter desires.
    Look man, I love the idea of the DH making it into the game as much as the next guy but we all know that it probably isn't coming with this one and if it did, it wouldn't likely pop out with two crossbows because that's unique to Diablo's DH, not WoW's and I HIGHLY doubt they'd ever introduce another weapon type that only one class uses - remember how DKs waltzed into Wrath with relics and then we had paladin/shaman ones as well and they were a fucking disaster for loot table sorting and what if you ran a raid without one of those three classes - it's as bad as being a ten man with no hunter and getting that crossbow from Protectors every week (I'm not bitter... much)

    So yeah, I want the DH but I think it'd be a DW 1H class using swords and fists, maybe axes and magic but it's like most of the other not-yet-implemented WC3 heroes - it has limited design space to occupy, so I think if we see a new class it'll probably still be a good old fantasy trope but it won't be based on a WC3 hero or unit since most of those would end up being a bit too limited for design space in WoW but I can always be wrong.
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  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    That would assume that Blizzard wants Warlocks to be melee in the first place.
    Done so to a minor degree in the past. And experimented with in various development cycles if we believe the designers.

    There is absolutely no indication of that being the case, ever.
    Did you ever play an original meta Warlock? You know - the one with the melee abilities? What Warlocks are now doesn't say a thing about what they were or what Blizzard can or cannot add.

    All Blizzard needs to do to make Warlock a WOW style Demon Hunter is to provide them a blindfold, allow NElfs to be Warlocks, allow the to wield the Glaives and then develop a 4th spec based upon the existing DA mechanic. Those first few are cosmetic changes, and the last is a spec that is essentially halfway developed already, with a lot of development work on Warlock tanking done even before MoP launched. We also know Blizzard at least were interested in bringing back the tanky feel of warlocks and tried to develop them in a tanking role to the same degree of effectiveness as Arms warriors.

    And this is "no indication"?

    Even with Dark Apotheosis, it is clear that the Warlock does not become a Melee fighter, they're ranged casters with defensive abilities and a taunt. That's pretty much the extent that Warlocks will get in terms of tanking, there isn't going to be further exploration any more than they would make Discipline or Mistwalker a full DPS spec
    No....that's what you want to happen. Blizzard has a proven interest in Warlock tanking, and a stated desire to accommodate that - to a certain degree. Understandably, they were not willing to put a full tanking spec into Demonology, or use a Glyph to provide that. Though possible, the changes necessary for a full tanking spec require a dedicated spec so it can be properly balanced.

    But even though you want Warlock and DHs to be separate, there is no indication Blizzard see them as such. Not with the degree of crossover that has occurred, not with the way Blizzard has mined the class to support the warlock, not with the 6+years of design and development that has Blizzard taking anything and everything that makes a Demon Hunter and Demon Hunter an giving it to Warlocks. The differences right now are a few minor cosmetic options and viability. Viability requires a dedicated 4th spec. Cosmetic options are easily implemented.

    Hunters can tame animals, Druids turn into animals. There is crossover no matter what way you look at it.
    And Warlocks have a massive crossover with that of a WOW style Demon Hunter. Its not the fact crossover exists...its the sheer scale of the crossover and the resulting lack of design space that results. You can create a DH that would avoid that, but then it wouldn't be a Demon Hunter.

    The core problem with the Warlock's pure association with demons is that there has never been any class in WoW that has challenged that relationship. Demons are not something that Warlocks have sole property over. They are demon summoners who draw upon demonic sources for their spells, that is all.
    And like them, Demon Hunters are beings who draw upon demonic sources for their spells and abilities. Both turn into demons. Both use demon magics. Both can use and control demons. There is a huge amount of crossover. The difference lies not in the theme or flavor of the classes, its in how they use those abilities. Warlock are a ranged class, DHs a melee class.

    EJL

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Efrye View Post
    Yes. The fun in PvP ends where monks or healers appear.
    This is... I don' think a common assessment. I'll also point out that in S5 DKs were on 100% of the top 100 2s comps, and were almost mandatory for a good 3s, and if RBGs had been around, would have dominated there. No monk spec, or even all of them put together, is as impactful in pvp.

    I do agree that mistweavers are too good in RBGs. But try to find them in 3s, for instance.

    ll they have to do for Demon Hunters is simply make Dark Apotheosis its own spec. Activate and grow demon wings, sac the pet, get the warglaive visual, and become a demon infused melee fighter/tank with melee combat skills and spell based mitigation. It makes significantly more sense design wise than adding a class that does the same thing as another that already exists.
    Demon Hunter as a rogue spec makes more sense than Demon Hunter as a lock spec, but in both cases you would have to lose many core class abilities, and the talents wouldn't make sense. Demon Hunter should be its own class.

    For what it is worth, I would be fine with the spec based solution, on any class, as long as they were serious about it.



    It would just be too much redundancy and repetition in class design. A little overlap is ok but overlap to the extent of Demon Hunter vs Warlock just don't work.
    One ability is not redundant.

  11. #271
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olrox View Post

    So yeah, I want the DH but I think it'd be a DW 1H class using swords and fists, maybe axes and magic but it's like most of the other not-yet-implemented WC3 heroes - it has limited design space to occupy, so I think if we see a new class it'll probably still be a good old fantasy trope but it won't be based on a WC3 hero or unit since most of those would end up being a bit too limited for design space in WoW but I can always be wrong.

    The Goblin Tinker and the Goblin Alchemist are the final two WC3 hero units who don't have abilities tied to an existing WoW class. Their technology theme is also unlike any other class in the game, and its a very broad and flexible archetype to pull from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    One ability is not redundant.
    How do you keep missing Immolation and Immolation Aura?

    Also WoW DHs had Sprint, Shadowfury, Evasion, and Curse of Flames.

    Evasion and Sprint would be redundant because of Rogues.

    The only unique DH NPC ability was Spellbreaker, a strike that reduced the attackers damage. Everything else was pulled from Warlocks, Rogues, and Priests (Mana Burn).
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-11-03 at 01:06 PM.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Goblin Tinker and the Goblin Alchemist are the final two WC3 hero units who don't have abilities tied to an existing WoW class. Their technology theme is also unlike any other class in the game, and its a very broad and flexible archetype to pull from.

    - - - Updated - - -



    How do you keep missing Immolation and Immolation Aura?

    Also WoW DHs had Sprint, Shadowfury, Evasion, and Curse of Flames.

    Evasion and Sprint would be redundant because of Rogues.

    The only unique DH NPC ability was Spellbreaker, a strike that reduced the attackers damage. Everything else was pulled from Warlocks, Rogues, and Priests (Mana Burn).
    Baron Rivendare used to have mortal strike,shadowbolt,cleave. He was not a warrior though.

  13. #273
    Oh great Teriz is back...I have been bored...it appears again he is ready to provide me with amusement.

    Teriz your "reasons" are invalid and are PURELY opinion.

    Folks it is real simple...if Blizzard wants Demon Hunters in the game, then they will be in the game. When you control ALL ASPECTS of the game then you can do whatever you want. Two examples to remember...

    Illidan's implementation in the game does not include a single warlock ability.

    A new class based on a WC3 unit has 85%+ of it's abilities created within WoW. The general lore/flavor is usually created through WoW. Entire sections/types/specs of the class are created within WoW (there are no mistweaver/windwalker monks or blood/frost/unholy DKs in WC3). Heck every single primary rotational ability for a DK (if I am not mistaken) except for Death Coil (in unholy) were created for WoW and did not exist in WC3.

    Trust me if Blizzard wants Demon Hunters to fit...they will make it happen.

    Lastly...Teriz...

    Alchemists and Tinkerers are represented ingame...as professions. Deny it all you want...but they are represented (understand what that word means). Does that preclude them from becoming a class later...not if Blizzard wants it of course. However...they are represented in WoW, just through a different (and in my opinion more appropriate) medium.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    How do you keep missing Immolation and Immolation Aura?
    Warlocks don't really even have it, is why. They only have it in meta form- Demon Hunters just have it. Also, why wasn't the fact that Immolate, the DH ability, brought in as Immolate, the lock ST spell, a solid argument for why warlocks would never have it? Oh, wait, they just renamed it.

    [Also WoW DHs had Sprint, Shadowfury, Evasion, and Curse of Flames.
    And WoW DKs had shields and a bunch of warrior abilities pre-LK.

  15. #275
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Baron Rivendare used to have mortal strike,shadowbolt,cleave. He was not a warrior though.
    The difference being that at the time, the DK's abilities from WC3 weren't in the spellbooks of existing classes.

    The Demon Hunter's are.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Warlocks don't really even have it, is why. They only have it in meta form- Demon Hunters just have it. Also, why wasn't the fact that Immolate, the DH ability, brought in as Immolate, the lock ST spell, a solid argument for why warlocks would never have it? Oh, wait, they just renamed it.
    Uh, Warlocks do have it. They have it as a single target ability AND they have it as a firey aura that surrounds them. Like I said, Warlocks are more powerful than Demon Hunters. Which makes it bizarre for Blizzard to introduce a class that is essentially a weaker version of a class that already exists in the game.

    And WoW DKs had shields and a bunch of warrior abilities pre-LK.
    But no non-DK class had the DK's abilities from WC3. That's the difference. ALL of the DH's WC3 abilities were farmed out to other classes.

  16. #276
    Teriz you are again missing the whole point.

    Read my post above...you have opinions that have no real bearing on the facts.

  17. #277
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensim View Post

    Folks it is real simple...if Blizzard wants Demon Hunters in the game, then they will be in the game. When you control ALL ASPECTS of the game then you can do whatever you want.
    And Blizzard already has them in the game. Look to where the WC3 Demon Hunter abilities wound up. That's where you'll find the WoW version of the Demon Hunter. Its really simple.


    Lastly...Teriz...

    Alchemists and Tinkerers are represented ingame...as professions. Deny it all you want...but they are represented (understand what that word means). Does that preclude them from becoming a class later...not if Blizzard wants it of course. However...they are represented in WoW, just through a different (and in my opinion more appropriate) medium.
    Where are the WC3 Tinker and Alchemist abilities within the professions? If those abilities are not present, then they don't represent the WC3 heroes they were supposedly based on. This notion is backed up by GC never mentioning Engineering in any of his tweets about a possible Tinker class.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-11-03 at 02:16 PM.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And Blizzard already has them in the game. Look to where the WC3 Demon Hunter abilities wound up. That's where you'll find the WoW version of the Demon Hunter. Its really simple.




    Where are the WC3 Tinker and Alchemist abilities within the professions? If those abilities are not present, then they don't represent the WC3 heroes they were supposedly based on.
    Ok it is clear you don't understand what represent means.

    As far as you comments around warlocks and demon hunters...you are again assuming. You believe that you opinions mirror that of Blizzard, you actually have no clue. Blizzard pulled back on the whole Dark Apothesis glyph during beta and the developer who moved aggressively forward on that front was reprimanded/fired/reassigned. We don't know why but maybe he crossed a line that impacted future Blizzard plans.

    That is the point Teriz. Two things you cannot refute...

    A. Blizzard can do and create anything they feel is required and/or fun for the game.
    B. No one on this forum knows anything of substance at this point.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh, Warlocks do have it. They have it as a single target ability AND they have it as a firey aura that surrounds them. Like I said, Warlocks are more powerful than Demon Hunters. Which makes it bizarre for Blizzard to introduce a class that is essentially a weaker version of a class that already exists in the game.
    Warlocks are not "more powerful than demon hunters". They do appear to be full casters who seem to have more powerful magics. But that's like saying a warlock is more powerful than a rogue, because the rogue only has a couple spells, and they need weapons to get anything out of them. Demon Hunters have a martial art and their magics.

    But no non-DK class had the DK's abilities from WC3. That's the difference. ALL of the DH's WC3 abilities were farmed out to other classes.
    Likely for the same reason all the hero class powers were- there's obviously the intention of them being in the game, and if they didn't have that class to put it on, they put it on another.

  20. #280
    New classes are fresh and interesting to ME, so whatever it is.

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