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  1. #421
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caliph View Post
    A DW 1h crossbow spec, dw 1h warglaive spec, some kind of demon form healing spec using demonic energies.
    If they bring in a new ranged weapon for one class, we would all question the intelligence of the class designers.

    If anything, IF, and only IF they made DH (which I'd still question their intelligence for), they'd make them use the current weapons that Hunters use: Bows, Crossbows, and Guns, all "2h" weapons.

    You're not going to see a brand new weapon type strictly for one class ever.

  2. #422
    They are secretive, shunned and somewhat ritualistic. Thats about all the canon lore we have on DHs. It also describes Warlocks quite well.
    They are night elves, with some blood elves. They have a whole organization training more of them. They are most assuredly not warlocks- who have their own separate organization, none of which are the same.


    Warlocks are not demon hunters. You can test this for yourself by looking at a warlock, then looking at a demon hunter, and noting how they have nothing at all in common. This isn't some kind of strange prejudice of mine- it's simply how they are presented in every media, ranging from WCIII to the RPG book to the books to the history to in game to everything at all about these classes ever. Switching to thinly veiled ad hominem about "how I view the class" won't help, but feel free to keep trying.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    If they bring in a new ranged weapon for one class, we would all question the intelligence of the class designers.

    If anything, IF, and only IF they made DH (which I'd still question their intelligence for), they'd make them use the current weapons that Hunters use: Bows, Crossbows, and Guns, all "2h" weapons.

    You're not going to see a brand new weapon type strictly for one class ever.
    What if...

    One handed pistols and crossbows are added into the game.

    Demon Hunters can use a a glaive/sword/axe/fist weapon in their main hand and a new 1 handed ranged weapon in their offhand (for one spec let's say).
    Hunters can Dual wield them.
    Rogues can main hand one handed ranged weapons and offhand a dagger for one spec.

    There we go. That was hard!

  4. #424
    OBJECTION.gif
    Demon hunters are naked rogues with some warlock in them, explain to me what armor they would use!

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMxyzptlk View Post
    OBJECTION.gif
    Demon hunters are naked rogues with some warlock in them, explain to me what armor they would use!
    If you think that there is something to the whole armor imbalance thing, mail.

    Generally l think generally they are referred to as leather wearers.

    They can justify it in any way that makes sense, and if they really care about it they can just do a "click to hide chest armor" button or something. Hell make it a heroic class and give a few different rules with regards to the display options.

    Quite a few ways to manage this, not a deal breaker.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    If anything, IF, and only IF they made DH (which I'd still question their intelligence for), they'd make them use the current weapons that Hunters use: Bows, Crossbows, and Guns, all "2h" weapons.
    Why would you think Demon Hunters would use hunter weapons at all? Demon Hunters use warglaives. If they gave them a ranged physical spec, then they would go the hunter weapon route, more or less, but that doesn't seem to line up with them at all.


    You're not going to see a brand new weapon type strictly for one class ever.
    Warglaives yo!

  7. #427
    I can see them spanning out the weapons to swords (glaives being part of swords), fist weapons, axes, and polearms (maybe staves).

    Why the 2-handers?

    If I am not mistaken, in the Visual Guide just released they make the comment that Illidan's blades can be used as two single handed weapons, or as a two handed weapon. We already have polearms referred to as a glaive: http://www.wowhead.com/item=47239

    You could also allow DH's to "break" magic weapons and infuse their glaives (a special class only ability like DKs runeforging), while releasing a single new glaive design (graphic) once a tier or something.

  8. #428
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Lol. The warlock is "redundant" with the mage, the shaman, and the druid. And yet, he isn't really. Frost DKs aren't "redundant" with rogues, or enhancement shaman either.
    Not really. Warlocks control demons, and use demonic, dark magic.

    Mages are your wizards, and they control a completely different subset of magic from Warlocks (Frost, Arcane, Fire vs. Shadow, Demonology, Destruction).

    Shaman use elements (Earth, Fire, Wind, Water) and totems. Their magic is more tribal in style and execution.

    Druids are different still, because their magic is combination of Arcane and Nature magic. This magic allows them to shapeshift into animals, as well as use the power of the moon and the stars.

    They don't even really play alike. Druids for example can play any role in the game via Shapeshift. Shaman have a melee tree, Warlocks are a pet class, and can transform into a psuedo-melee demon.

    Here's the problem; A Demon Hunter in gameplay wouldn't be much different than what we already have in the game currently. The reason Mages, Warlocks, Shaman, and Druids can occupy the game and still be distinct is because they're extremely broad archetypes. The Demon Hunter isn't a broad archetype. You can verify this for yourself by trying to come up with three unique Demon Hunter specs that are true to the WC3 hero and DHs in WoW. To date, I have yet to see anyone come up with a viable one. In nearly every case, someone veers off into crazy land and produces something that doesn't resemble a Warcraft DH at all.

    Like... are you just going to throw an absolute fit if Demon Hunter is announced at the end of this week? I'm used to being disappointed about never having the goddamned demon hunter playable. I'm not happy about it, but it has happened every expansion thus far. I'm definitely sick of being told that warlocks are demon hunters (rofl no) or that demon hunters are redundant (didn't stop all the other "redundant" things) or that demon hunters are too niche, or that any other thing about it. I'm sick of being told that I'm somehow wrong for continuing to want this same class in wow, along with like so many other people that I talk with.

    But like... say, they throw us a bone after a decade of not. Are you just gonna go all rabid in here? Are you gonna go into the Demon Hunter forums and tell us that we should all be playing warlocks or whatever?
    I would be highly disappointed because we're essentially going to be having two classes doing very similar things. It would also be a new class that really adds nothing new to the class lineup, and really overlaps heavily with other melee classes. I prefer the classes to be as different from each other as possible, like Monks for example. Monks were a fresh, interesting new class that was different than existing classes. The game was better from their inclusion.

    The game would actually be WORSE after a DH inclusion, because of the type of player that would be drawn to that class. It will be the type who complains as soon as Blizzard starts nerfing the class, and calls themselves IllidanXYZ or something similar. Not to mention that a Demon Hunter class would effectively render both the Rogue and Warlock classes obsolete.

    Fortunately I don't have to worry about that, since Blizzard has firmly established Warlocks as the holders of the DH legacy.

  9. #429
    The Patient amaraim's Avatar
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    Please no more classes. Not now.

    Give us good updated models on all races <3. I'm okay with new races though, but sitll. There's better stuff to focus on.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by kensim View Post
    I can see them spanning out the weapons to swords (glaives being part of swords), fist weapons, axes, and polearms (maybe staves).

    Why the 2-handers?

    If I am not mistaken, in the Visual Guide just released they make the comment that Illidan's blades can be used as two single handed weapons, or as a two handed weapon. We already have polearms referred to as a glaive: http://www.wowhead.com/item=47239

    You could also allow DH's to "break" magic weapons and infuse their glaives (a special class only ability like DKs runeforging), while releasing a single new glaive design (graphic) once a tier or something.
    Or... they could just use weapons like every other class. They don't need special treatment; just make sure tier warglaives are at least competitive for best in slot weapon or, alternately, make sure the best-in-slot weapon is transmogrifiable into a warglaive, and make the model available in the DH starting zone, just like DKs and their starting armor set in Acherus.

  11. #431
    don't like the demon hunter class. at all. I think we have a lot of classes already and i doubt they can make something really different from everything else. An increasing number of classes is just going to waste more and more developers time around balancing everything. Every expansion they need to rethink more and more talents etc..

    Would rather see that developers time spent on more races (ogres, ethereals, centaurs) subraces, greater character customization, more 5 man dungeons, you name it...

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Not really. Warlocks control demons, and use demonic, dark magic.
    Have you played a Warlock, ever? Controlling demons is about as important as remembering to have your trinkets equipped going into a fight. Aside from using a pet ability once in a blue moon, you're casting spells on rotation, just like any other caster. Controlling demons is about 5-10% of a Warlock's gameplay, maybe 20% in the case for Demonology.

  13. #433
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Have you played a Warlock, ever? Controlling demons is about as important as remembering to have your trinkets equipped going into a fight. Aside from using a pet ability once in a blue moon, you're casting spells on rotation, just like any other caster. Controlling demons is about 5-10% of a Warlock's gameplay, maybe 20% in the case for Demonology.
    Your pets provide a great deal of utility to the class. Imps can heal you, the Felguard tanks for you, the Succubus pins enemies down for you, etc. Soul Link shares your damage with your pet, allowing you to last longer. Grimore of Sacrifice allows you to kill your pet in order to empower yourself. Sacrificial Pact allows you to steal life from your pet in order to shield yourself, and on and on and on. Recently your Felhunter and your Imp even provided group buffs, but those were removed for some silly reason.

    In short, the idea that controlling your demons is unimportant to effective Warlock play is downright silly. If you don't control your demons properly, you're dead. If you don't use your pet-related cooldowns properly, you're dead. There's a great deal of strategic gameplay beyond having the right pet out at the right time. Mages don't have to worry about that. Not even Frost Mages, because the Mages themselves provide the utility.

    Have you ever played a Warlock? Seriously?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-11-06 at 02:24 AM.

  14. #434
    You don't die from mismanaging your pets. Your pets manage themselves.

    You use pet abilities once in a blue moon, when it is necessary. They are hardly part of your rotation and hardly required for survival (at least in PVE). You cast spells just like other casters, not micromanaging your minions. The only exception is Demonology, where you might summon Wild Imps and use Felguard abilities more often, but even that comprises maybe 20% of your rotation at most. It's even less of a factor in your other specs.

    Druids use nature magic, but that broad generalization is hardly indicative of Feral Druid gameplay. The practical use of Demon minions is only relevant to one spec of the Warlock, Demonology. Any other situation demons are used is as utility, which is about as important as Entangling Roots or Healing Touch is for a Feral Druid.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-11-06 at 02:47 AM.

  15. #435
    DW, 1 handed cross bows, Plate gear, Demon pets ( out lands being demonic and all) .. They need another hunter like class. Enough meele and casters. !

  16. #436
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    You don't die from mismanaging your pets. Your pets manage themselves.
    In PvP you will most certainly die if your mismanage your pets. In Raids if your pet dies you can lose a significant portion of your DPS and utility. So yes, managing your pets are important as a Warlock. Its a core aspect of your playstyle.

    You use pet abilities once in a blue moon, when it is necessary. They are hardly part of your rotation and hardly required for survival (at least in PVE). You cast spells just like other casters, not micromanaging your minions. The only exception is Demonology, where you might summon Wild Imps and use Felguard abilities more often, but even that comprises maybe 20% of your rotation at most. It's even less of a factor in your other specs.
    Really? I rather enjoy Cauterize Master as a Destruction Lock. It allows me to heal without having to waste an Ember. Additionally, I almost always take Soul Link simply because of its great utility (healing + Damage Reduction). I would say the fact that you have entire talents and talent tiers dedicated to the minions proves my point. You see any talents in the Mage class dedicated towards the Water Elemental?

    Druids use nature magic, but that broad generalization is hardly indicative of Feral Druid gameplay. The practical use of Demon minions is only relevant to one spec of the Warlock, Demonology. Any other situation demons are used is as utility, which is about as important as Entangling Roots or Healing Touch is for a Feral Druid.
    Nurturing Instinct, Predatory Swiftness, Omen of Clarity, and various talents aren't indicative of Nature magic within Feral Druid gameplay?

    The practical use of Demons is practical in all specs of the Warlock. If you doubt this, survey how many Warlocks are running raids without their pets.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Nurturing Instinct, Predatory Swiftness, Omen of Clarity, and various talents aren't indicative of Nature magic within Feral Druid gameplay?

    The practical use of Demons is practical in all specs of the Warlock. If you doubt this, survey how many Warlocks are running raids without their pets.
    All which are passives, which is about how Warlocks value pet DPS. It's basically the Warlock's version of Autoattack. Sure they can comprise a good chunk of DPS, but you're not actively doing anything with them. Warlocks are casters. I'm glad you enjoy using Cauterize Master and Soul Link, but that will still be less than 5% of your actions in any given fight.

    The problem is your logic is flawed. You think that because Warlocks have a demon pet out, that they are different from other Casters who don't. In reality, all casters are part of the same role, they're all just flavoured differently. When you break it down, you're still going to be casting spells on rotation, and everything else that is not necessary to a DPS rotation is simply utility. 'Summoning' is purely utility for a Warlock, and it isn't anything that really separates them from being any different from Mages, Elemental Shamans, Shadow Priests or Balance druids in core gameplay.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-11-06 at 03:51 AM.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Look Wolfen, its like this; Blizzard considers Illidan a demon. Demonology is slowly becoming a spec modeled after Illidan (transforming into a demon to increase your powers).

    So where does that leave Demon Hunters as a concept? Do you honestly believe you can create a viable DH class without the Illidan concept, and without the abilities currently possessed by the Warlock class?

    If you can, please explain, because I don't think you can. Again, we're talking about a DH class without Immolation, without Metamorphosis, and without Illidan's abilities.
    Illidan is not the archetypal Demon Hunter, he is unique, and probably far more of a caster than any average Demon Hunter.

    Immolation is just a fire-based AOE, it can be replaced. Evasion is just an ability that grants dodge, it can also be replaced. Metamorphosis, like the other abilities, can have an entirely different implementation.

  19. #439
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    All which are passives, which is about how Warlocks value pet DPS. It's basically the Warlock's version of Autoattack. Sure they can comprise a good chunk of DPS, but you're not actively doing anything with them. Warlocks are casters. I'm glad you enjoy using Cauterize Master and Soul Link, but that will still be less than 5% of your actions in any given fight.
    Yeah they're passives, passives that allow you to cast magic abilities in Cat form.

    So let's go through what Pets do for Warlocks:

    -DPS contribution
    -Tanks for Warlock
    -Provides Utility spells
    -Empowers Warlock

    But hey, that's just like auto-attack right?

    The problem is your logic is flawed. You think that because Warlocks have a demon pet out, that they are different from other Casters who don't. In reality, all casters are part of the same role, they're all just flavoured differently. When you break it down, you're still going to be casting spells on rotation, and everything else that is not necessary to a DPS rotation is simply utility. 'Summoning' is purely utility for a Warlock, and it isn't anything that really separates them from being any different from Mages, Elemental Shamans, Shadow Priests or Balance druids in core gameplay.
    Except those casters aren't dependent on pets. Warlocks are. Again if you doubt this, survey Warlocks who run raids without pets.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    Illidan is not the archetypal Demon Hunter, he is unique, and probably far more of a caster than any average Demon Hunter.
    Actually he is. He is the Alpha Demon Hunter, and the most powerful one by far. That probably explains why Blizzard is pushing the DH concept into a caster class.

    Immolation is just a fire-based AOE, it can be replaced. Evasion is just an ability that grants dodge, it can also be replaced. Metamorphosis, like the other abilities, can have an entirely different implementation.
    Why not just develop a different concept? If you're going to change the abilities that make a DH a DH, just use a different class.

  20. #440
    Illidan is not the iconic demon hunter at all beyond the most literal context. The demon hunter hero NPCs are much more selfless than he is, they choose to sacrifice their souls and eyes and their very lives ultimately to keep their civilization safe. Illidan had very selfish goals mixed with his concern for his own people, but he was power hungry and unstable. The other demon hunters we've met as NPCs are generally cool and aloof and sinister. They make excuses for Illidan but don't act anything like him.
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