1. #1981
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Yeah then watch the casuals bitch because they have to spam trade or rely on a guild, nice idea but it won't work.
    I don't see anyone bitching about having to find people for Heroic Scenarios, do you?

  2. #1982
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    I fail to see how LFG and LFR do any damage.

    People complain now because the only endgame content is the same raid in four difficulties.

    People wouldn't complain if non-LFG Heroic dungeons weren't mandatory for gearing. You'd still have the same gear progression path as now, with Normal dungeons taking the place of Heroic ones, and the new Heroic Dungeons offering LFR-level gear. So then you have a choice of doing LFR or Heroics for gear.
    People complain because of : not having other content than raids, no vendors giving same iL gear asi raids, anything that needs atleast a bit of commitment, anything that needs to be grinded or worked for more than few minutes, and so on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    I don't see anyone bitching about having to find people for Heroic Scenarios, do you?
    I actually saw few...

  3. #1983
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    If they fixed that problem then bosses would not need to move and there would be nothing for the tank to not stand in.
    I just remember that melee were not nearly as much of a liability in TBC and Wrath.
    Obviously you couldn't stack the raid with them, but you'd have a solid core of 5-7 melee. It was only in Cataclysm where I started seeing crap like Ascendant Council p3, the gigantic screw you to melee.

  4. #1984
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    What type of progression are you expecting without raiding? Let's imagine for a moment, that all raids are removed from the game. What do you put in place to fill the void? There is no build up for large group play or requirement, offer an alternative.
    While I wouldn't mind getting rid of raiding, I'm not naive or selfish enough to seriously expect that Blizzard would ever dispose of it. However, if Blizzard miraculously decided to appeal exclusively to me they would focus on 5-mans.

    I just don't like large group play. Maybe I just don't understand what makes it so appealing. Is it the difficulty of finding massive numbers of players all on the same schedule? Is it the thrill of anticipating that on any given night two to three players will be unable to attend and will have to be replaced? Is it the fact that the ground effects from 10+ players simultaneously firing off their skills will bring a quarter of the raids' 2004-era computers to a screeching halt? Is it the lack of accountability that comes with knowing that you are only responsible for somewhere between 4-10% of the group's output? Maybe it's the epic feeling that you single-handedly faced down a boss with only 9-24 other players backing you up. I couldn't tell you how to fill that "void" because I simply don't perceive it.

    Realistically, however, I think there should be progression on both fronts. The idea isn't so far fetched. We had it in TBC and WotLK, so why can't we get that again? I'm sorry if you read my post as a call to get rid of raids; while I agree that would be my preference, it's certainly not my expectation.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  5. #1985
    Quote Originally Posted by Drekmar View Post
    People complain because of : not having other content than raids, no vendors giving same iL gear asi raids, anything that needs atleast a bit of commitment, anything that needs to be grinded or worked for more than few minutes, and so on...
    That isn't related to LFG and LFR.

    And the few who did complain about H Scens are few and far between.

  6. #1986
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    The problem with challenge modes is that the whole point of them is to bull rush the instance as fast as possible, rather than having truly challenging encounters.
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Cannot disagree with that.
    Wow! Some common ground for a change. I agree too. Speed runs are the complete opposite of fun in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  7. #1987
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    I fail to see how LFG and LFR do any damage.
    it discourages people from joining casual raiding guild. Which then feed players to the normal raiding guilds, who feed to the heroic raiding guilds, etc.
    I started raiding because I wanted to see Gruul, Void Reaver, Kael'thas etc in person. Not because I wanted to get the same Kael'Thas loot but with a green heroic tag on it and a few dozen more ilvls.

  8. #1988
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    While I wouldn't mind getting rid of raiding, I'm not naive or selfish enough to seriously expect that Blizzard would ever dispose of it. However, if Blizzard miraculously decided to appeal exclusively to me they would focus on 5-mans.

    I just don't like large group play. Maybe I just don't understand what makes it so appealing. Is it the difficulty of finding massive numbers of players all on the same schedule? Is it the thrill of anticipating that on any given night two to three players will be unable to attend and will have to be replaced? Is it the fact that the ground effects from 10+ players simultaneously firing off their skills will bring a quarter of the raids' 2004-era computers to a screeching halt? Is it the lack of accountability that comes with knowing that you are only responsible for somewhere between 4-10% of the group's output? Maybe it's the epic feeling that you single-handedly faced down a boss with only 9-24 other players backing you up. I couldn't tell you how to fill that "void" because I simply don't perceive it.

    Realistically, however, I think there should be progression on both fronts. The idea isn't so far fetched. We had it in TBC and WotLK, so why can't we get that again? I'm sorry if you read my post as a call to get rid of raids; while I agree that would be my preference, it's certainly not my expectation.
    From a healer's point of view, the higher number of healable targets is a big factor in making raids fun. You get to use cool-looking mass-scale AoE heals instead of mostly triage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    it discourages people from joining casual raiding guild. Which then feed players to the normal raiding guilds, who feed to the heroic raiding guilds, etc.
    I started raiding because I wanted to see Gruul, Void Reaver, Kael'thas etc in person. Not because I wanted to get the same Kael'Thas loot but with a green heroic tag on it and a few dozen more ilvls.
    LFR made me want to get into raiding. At first my only PvE content was Dungeons and I was hesitant about going into big boy raids. Point still stand for LFG though.

  9. #1989
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    So true. Many LFRaiders are utterly dismissive of all the other content that Mists of Pandaria offers them, throwing around such terms as Pokewow and Panda Island Adventure.
    Dismissing Brawler's Guild and Proving Grounds as pointless because it doesn't award gear. Ignoring pvp because why not, and scenarios, again presumably because the gear isn't of interest to them.
    I guess they could go back to 5 mans again and try to find a good difficulty setting for them.
    I have been a Flex raider since I resubbed, and as of last night I'm a Normal mode raider as well: My Armory
    The problem I have with the other content is that it offers no sense of progression. My Little Panda Adventure Isle takes one 3 hour marathon to acquire a set of 496 gear. After that it's a mindless grind for burdens. Do you seriously think that's a replacement for WotLK-style 5-man dungeons where I had 16 instances to pick from? One is a grind and the other is not. Proving Grounds is the same deal. A 45-minute heal-a-thon that only ends when I OOM or when the tank has the misfortune to get one-shotted is not a replacement for a dungeon. As for Pokewow, that term is apt. The mechanics are identical. I'm not disparaging the content; I like Pokemon. However, I'm not going to pay $15 a month for online Pokemon when my kids already have just about every Pokemon game in existence, including the ones for the GBA.

    Scenarios are glorified group quests. I like group quests. Once. I don't want to run them over and over day in and day out, and I'm not going to pay $15 a month just so I can run group quests every day on my main character. Every scenario is essentially the same: run around killing trash for 15 minutes and then faceroll a boss. Most of the time no healing or tanking is even required. It doesn't matter that there's plenty of content when the content is not engaging. Quality > Quantity. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-11-06 at 09:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  10. #1990
    Stood in the Fire Snorkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    it discourages people from joining casual raiding guild. Which then feed players to the normal raiding guilds, who feed to the heroic raiding guilds, etc.
    I started raiding because I wanted to see Gruul, Void Reaver, Kael'thas etc in person. Not because I wanted to get the same Kael'Thas loot but with a green heroic tag on it and a few dozen more ilvls.
    It doesn't. At all. It gives people who would otherwise not be raiding something to do. If it were to be removed they wouldn't just go 'oh better join a raiding guild'. They'd probably just unsubscribe.

    The fact the prior to LFR Raiding numbers were still abysmally low compared to the number of subscribers should be fairly indicative of this. WoWs appeal has never, and will never, be raiding. Unfortunately Blizzard want it to be and that's what has caused our current predicament.

  11. #1991
    Quote Originally Posted by unholyness View Post
    5-man's have always been a joke to good player because we wouldnt bring anyone but a guildie who is a good player and we are geared from the tier before so I dont know how the hell you think 5-man's are anything special. Basically you are saying because you get bad's in the run, it makes it more fun and challenging,?Wow, simply wow. There are plenty of bad's in LFR and even Flex if you want a challenge. 5-mans will never be more than a gearing/leveling tool for hitting 90.
    That's your pessimistic way of interpreting it. You call them "bads," but I call them inexperienced and/or unskilled. Diversity is key to maintaining a high subscriber count. Today's "bad" is tomorrow's heroic raider. As it is the game is designed to isolate new and inexperienced players from the older, more experienced raiders. Eventually this system breeds elitism. Your own words, "we wouldnt bring anyone but a guildie who is a good player and we are geared from the tier before so I dont know how the hell you think 5-man's are anything special," highlight the issue. This is all well and good until your guildies gradually find other occupations, as all guildies eventually do. Unfortunately since you have been limiting your interactions only to guildies who are good players there won't be any replacements waiting in the wings for you. At that point you can unsub and post bitter rants about the good old days and how WoW killed them by catering to "bads." You'll have plenty of company on these forums.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  12. #1992
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorkles View Post
    WoWs appeal has never, and will never, be raiding. Unfortunately Blizzard want it to be and that's what has caused our current predicament.
    Except for the fact that for my guild.. heroic raiding is the only reason we still play. We're 9/14 heroic atm and majority only log in for raid, once raid is over we stick around in vent and go play other games or talk about how we're going to improve a boss strat while we do the orgrimmar 100 in shrine.

  13. #1993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Quality > Quantity. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.
    Players devour content at such a fast rate now that it is hard to deliver the amount of quality you want while also being able to deliver the quantity needed to keep the playerbase subscribed! It's rather obvious to see where they get in trouble with this one.. they want to shoot out high quality stuff but then "nothign to do F it unsubbing" so they have to rush shit out faster than ever to keep people interested!

    Max profits | Quality of product | Quantity of product

    You can only pick 2 of those three generaly when looking at a standard business model. If you want a lot of quality products its going to dig into profits (can't do that with share holders!) If you want to max profit's then you can make a lot of lower quality things or pump ou high quality stuff but a lot less (in our case woudl be more time between patches something blizz said they want to do the oposite of).

    So I don't knwo what's hard to understand with how WOW is at the moment as it's a basic buisness model.

  14. #1994
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Maybe it is because there is an overwhelming amount of casual content currently available. By far there is more casual content than raiding. People have made whole page posts listing the metric butt tons of things available to do without every mentioning the word raid.
    The problem is that it's all throwaway content that has very little to do with the aspects of WoW that historically made it so appealing.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    The problem is that an overwhelming majority of posters to this thread want RAID EQUIVALENT character progression/gear without putting in RAID EQUIVALENT time and effort.
    I guess you'll never understand the difference between a game and a job. Game == diversion. Fun is the reward of playing a game. Gear is not a reward. Acquiring new gear is fun, but keep in mind that whatever "raid level" gear you get now is going to be made obsolete by next expansion's greens. Withholding gear from players based on the content they prefer is absolutely ridiculous. If you want to participate in a system where your efforts are substantially rewarded then put effort into your school and/or job. Raiding is not going to provide you with those rewards. This is not a problem; it's just reality. I don't know how you managed to grow up to believe that a game should reward players for spending more time screwing around on it. That's not good for society as a whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drekmar View Post
    The whole problem in one sentence. People think that paying for game means that they will get everything.
    The whole misperception in one sentence. People think that paying for a game means that the game will give them something fun to do. They're absolutely correct in insisting on that. Why would anyone in their right mind pay for a game that wasn't fun for them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by unholyness View Post
    Golly $3.75 a week, people sure expect a lot for mere pennies.
    If it's mere pennies I'll gladly accept your sponsorship. Did you want to deposit your $3.75 a week in my paypal or will you be sending a check?
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  15. #1995
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    The whole misperception in one sentence. People think that paying for a game means that the game will give them something fun to do. They're absolutely correct in insisting on that. Why would anyone in their right mind pay for a game that wasn't fun for them?
    Then the game is not suited for them! There are plenty of other games on the market.

    You just cant get the same rewards as some who plays 6 times more than you, if you havent noticed, this games is also about competition.

  16. #1996
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snorkles View Post
    It doesn't. At all. It gives people who would otherwise not be raiding something to do. If it were to be removed they wouldn't just go 'oh better join a raiding guild'. They'd probably just unsubscribe.

    The fact the prior to LFR Raiding numbers were still abysmally low compared to the number of subscribers should be fairly indicative of this. WoWs appeal has never, and will never, be raiding. Unfortunately Blizzard want it to be and that's what has caused our current predicament.
    Name one single activity in wow that more players subscribe to the game for more than raiders do for raiding. I love the "raiding was never that popular to start with" responces... WHAT in wow has ever been popular / the main reason peoepl were subbed by more than 10% of the total wow population at any given point?

  17. #1997
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Nope.

    Fall down tuck and roll from standing. Leveling character

    Jump from low platform tuck and roll. Running normal dungeons

    Jump from higher platform tuck and roll. Running heroic dungeons.

    Jump from platform high enough to copy the effects when hitting the ground with a full load while being slowed down by a parachute. Running LFR

    Then start learning anything having to do with having a parachute strapped to you. Flex
    You missed the whole point. Training is required to teach people how to jump out of planes. Blizzard is not a school. The goal of Jump School is to teach soldiers to jump out of planes. Blizzard is a business and their goal is to convince as many people to give them $15 a month as possible. Nothing you're saying here convinces me otherwise. Just because you choose to run your guild as a Jump School doesn't mean you're establishing a model for Blizzard to follow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Can one of you heroic 25 man raiders tell me what you think? Are normal mode pieces raid level epics?
    Heroic epics were your words, not mine. You're the one who was accusing casuals of demanding heroic epics for non-raid content. That's not the same as demanding raid-level epics for non-raid content. I agree that normal mode pieces are raid level epics, and I think it's perfectly fine for non-raiders to insist on a progression path towards gaining those without having to raid. I'm also OK with heroic epics being confined to heroic raiders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Did you bump your head?

    Ghost Crawler said that casual players when faced with hard content would quit rather than get better. I have been supporting that all along. You JUST said the exact same thing.
    For Pete's sake! You're the one who chimed in when I originally quoted that statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    No, read it again. The myth is that "hard content forces players to rise to the challenge and not quit." That's the opposite of how you seem to have understood it.
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    No. It is actually not. Just because he omited the next line where GC verbatim states that casual players when faced with an obtacle will quite rather than surmount it does not remove the fact that he DID indeed say this and everyone reading this thread that read that blue post knows it.
    Why did you say, "No. It is actually not," in your original post and then turn around and say, "You JUST said the exact same thing." The whole point of my post was that you said the exact same thing. Are you just picking arguments with me for the heck of it?
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  18. #1998
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    I don't see anyone bitching about having to find people for Heroic Scenarios, do you?
    Are you really going to compare something that doesn't require a tank or healer and only 3 people to a challenging 5 man heroic that requires both a tank and healer?
    "Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel. He is the only one who inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it." - Mark Twain

  19. #1999
    Ok so I got one question for complainers:
    If you cant find anything enjoyable in the game, why do you keep playing it?

  20. #2000
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    The english language and comparisons of like situations are mostly wasted on you. It is ok though. There is room in this world for people who take everything literally.
    My point was that comparing playing a game to having sex is pretty ridiculous. Also, the game will always award raid-level gear to non-raiders in some way or another. If I farm about 100K gold I guarantee that six months from now I'll be able to pay a 14/14H guild to carry me through the raid and hand me the reward mount to boot. That's how meaningful your in-game rewards are.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

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