1. #2161
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFuFanta View Post
    Was that sarcasm? Because I doubt anyone wants that, and I don't think WoW had that many thousands of quests back then.
    IIRC the 3,000 quest achievement was quite difficult to get back in Wrath, I guess I'd estimate Vanilla had about 1,000 quests or so.
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  2. #2162
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Even so, Blizzard probably would be smart to pull some resources away from raiding then and to put it into a different kind of end-game.
    Oh so we alienate raiders even more to solve the spg problems?

  3. #2163
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Even so, Blizzard probably would be smart to pull some resources away from raiding then and to put it into a different kind of end-game.
    Why would they change their end-game? It's World of Warcraft which follows the lore of Wacraft itself - changing that now would kill WoW dead in its tracks. After all, you wouldn't start playing Crysis and upon getting to Crysis 3 you ask them to add or change it to Need for Speed for some side-line fun?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    IIRC the 3,000 quest achievement was quite difficult to get back in Wrath, I guess I'd estimate Vanilla had about 1,000 quests or so.
    I can certainly assure you that there were more than 1k quests from lvl 1-60 in Vanilla. Each level between say 40-50 took around 50 quests PER level.

  4. #2164
    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    Why would they change their end-game? It's World of Warcraft which follows the lore of Wacraft itself - changing that now would kill WoW dead in its tracks. After all, you wouldn't start playing Crysis and upon getting to Crysis 3 you ask them to add or change it to Need for Speed for some side-line fun?

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    I can certainly assure you that there were more than 1k quests from lvl 1-60 in Vanilla. Each level between say 40-50 took around 50 quests PER level.
    Yeah there were alot more than 1k and when they changed zones they dropped a bunch of them.

  5. #2165
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    No sarcasm there. Players who hate raiding and PvP want more RP, players who hate RP and PvE want more PvP, players who hate RP and PvP just want epix. And yes there were quite an insurmountable amount back then. I had reached 60 and still not explored 3/4 of WoW or reached anywhere near atunement for any of the raids.
    While six months to level and thousands of quests sounds fine to me, I understand that I'm really the exception here. There are few brand new players to WoW these days and it's obvious that the vast majority of everyone else building alts is interested in getting to end game in a relatively expeditious manner. That's where the new/latest part of the game is. And that's OK. If I want to level an alt and do it as if I'm going for Loremaster every time I can do that and about once a year I do taking months and months to get something up to end game. Other alts I bang through it as fast as I can. Neither way is wrong.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-11-07 at 03:14 AM.
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  6. #2166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Yeah there were alot more than 1k and when they changed zones they dropped a bunch of them.
    Currently from 1-60 there are 1,891 quests for Alliance including pvp
    Horde only is 1,807

    That isn't counting holiday stuff.
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  7. #2167
    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Man you must tell boring stories if you think you can hash out thousands upon thousands more quests in an expansion within the few archs we've been given the past couple. You also have to remember that you have to do this every year or year and a half to keep your entire player base happy. Don't think raiders are gonna want to sit for longer than 3-4 months in their dungeon. You really think you can pull it off? No other company has yet.
    Was that directed at me? I'm not sure what you were talking to me about

  8. #2168
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFuFanta View Post
    Was that directed at me? I'm not sure what you were talking to me about
    You claim all it takes is a programming team to make an mmo. You are missing a lot of other components that you need to make a game. Hence you must tell boring stories, for one example. That or you can explain how you could turn a few archs into thousands upon thousands of quests. I'd love to read it but i think you'd be wasting your time.

  9. #2169
    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    You claim all it takes is a programming team to make an mmo. You are missing a lot of other components that you need to make a game. Hence you must tell boring stories, for one example.
    Well now I just feel bad about myself because admittedly because my stories aren't all that great, thanks for that.


  10. #2170
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    Quote Originally Posted by topcatti View Post
    Why cant casuals raid normal, or even heroic? Really tell me. Play the game for 3 hours, 2 or 3 times a week? jesus
    Because of work. I have very very shifting work hours. Some weeks I can attend to every raid during normal raid hours but to day/night time raids. The next week it is the opposite.

  11. #2171
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFuFanta View Post
    Well now I just feel bad about myself because admittedly because my stories aren't all that great, thanks for that.

    I see you started your own thread. Good luck making your game.

  12. #2172
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerdoz View Post
    Because of work. I have very very shifting work hours. Some weeks I can attend to every raid during normal raid hours but to day/night time raids. The next week it is the opposite.
    Why don't you find a guild that has a flexible raid schedule that's set on a weekly basis?
    That's what the calendar and guild notes are good for.

    I'm still not convinced that even 10% of capable and willing WoW subscribers are bogged down by their obligations to raid.
    I buy that most subscribers may not like elements of raiding like schedules and possible meani-heads but mostly I feel it's part of a shitty problem with players defeatist attitude.

    It's like how most players who don't like PvP is because they are bad at it and feel helpless so they desist.

  13. #2173
    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    Why don't you find a guild that has a flexible raid schedule that's set on a weekly basis?
    There aren't any. I don't think it's possible at all to raid unless you have a fairly normal schedule. I worked as a bartender for a while when I was a student and raiding was completely impossible with that schedule. I would have had free time for a while in the afternoon but there simply weren't any afternoon raiding guilds.

    The problem is that there are *tons* of people who have a regular 9 to 5 schedule or something very close while those of us with a different schedule don't fall into the same group. The guy who works with mail might have to wake up before dawn but he gets off work really early and has extra time in the morning. The bartender might have extra time in the afternoon. The night shift guy at the factory would have extra time at some other time. All the people with non-standard schedules have different non-standard schedules while all the standard schedule people have roughly the same standard schedule.

    I don't know if this is any easier on US servers where you might have English-speaking guilds on different time zones but in EU most countries have one time zone and all the international guilds raid on a schedule that works roughly right for 9-to-5 people in CET or close. I can't exactly join a Russian guild to raid earlier when I don't know a word of Russian.

    As for anyone saying "raiding is just like any hobby, you have to schedule", well, that's simply not true. You can take a martial arts class and they won't mind at all if you don't show up every once in a while. Raiding guilds DO mind because the guild is making an investment in you every time it gives you a piece of raid gear that could have gone to a member that shows up more. PvP is much friendlier to non-standard schedules since gear is "personal" and you can keep yourself geared without making a scheduled run each week.

    The problem with gear as a carrot is that you absolutely need it to perform in the raid which means while the gearing incentive keeps a certain part of the player population raiding it also keeps a certain population out of raids. You need to keep yourself geared up to get into raids and the only way to keep yourself geared up is raids. This is absolutely brutal for people with non-standard schedules. They've misdiagnosed the problem and gave us the garbage that is LFR which really is what made me quit (this flex mode sounds like it might help the problem, though, I'll have to give the new expansion a go).
    Last edited by jaakkeli; 2013-11-07 at 06:06 AM.

  14. #2174
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    There aren't any. I don't think it's possible at all to raid unless you have a fairly normal schedule. I worked as a bartender for a while when I was a student and raiding was completely impossible with that schedule. I would have had free time for a while in the afternoon but there simply weren't any afternoon raiding guilds.

    The problem is that there are *tons* of people who have a regular 9 to 5 schedule or something very close while those of us with a different schedule don't fall into the same group. The guy who works with mail might have to wake up before dawn but he gets off work really early and has extra time in the morning. The bartender might have extra time in the afternoon. The night shift guy at the factory would have extra time at some other time. All the people with non-standard schedules have different non-standard schedules while all the standard schedule people have roughly the same standard schedule.

    I don't know if this is any easier on US servers where you might have English-speaking guilds on different time zones but in EU most countries have one time zone and all the international guilds raid on a schedule that works roughly right for 9-to-5 people in CET or close. I can't exactly join a Russian guild to raid earlier when I don't know a word of Russian.
    Got a guy who is married with a kid who is military and his schedule fluctuates, we fit him in when he is on and fill his spot when he isn't.
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  15. #2175
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    There aren't any. I don't think it's possible at all to raid unless you have a fairly normal schedule. I worked as a bartender for a while when I was a student and raiding was completely impossible with that schedule. I would have had free time for a while in the afternoon but there simply weren't any afternoon raiding guilds.

    The problem is that there are *tons* of people who have a regular 9 to 5 schedule or something very close while those of us with a different schedule don't fall into the same group. The guy who works with mail might have to wake up before dawn but he gets off work really early and has extra time in the morning. The bartender might have extra time in the afternoon. The night shift guy at the factory would have extra time at some other time. All the people with non-standard schedules have different non-standard schedules while all the standard schedule people have roughly the same standard schedule.

    I don't know if this is any easier on US servers where you might have English-speaking guilds on different time zones but in EU most countries have one time zone and all the international guilds raid on a schedule that works roughly right for 9-to-5 people in CET or close. I can't exactly join a Russian guild to raid earlier when I don't know a word of Russian.
    Dunno about how your time zones over there, but we had a mother/daughter pair that raided with us for some time that were playing from Holland. Had a member who played from Australia. Where there is a will there is a way.


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  16. #2176
    there's flex, LFR, pet battles, pvp, proving grounds, dailies and more and you have the nerves to ask for more casual content. oh please.

  17. #2177
    Quote Originally Posted by topcatti View Post
    Why cant casuals raid normal, or even heroic? Really tell me. Play the game for 3 hours, 2 or 3 times a week? jesus
    Some people have difficult jobs, others have to study and work, some of them are parents and have different responsabilities. I mean, no offense but not everyone can afford taking money from their parents.

    I'm now able to keep raiding properly, since I'm working from house, but in my previous job it was impossible to me to get in time for raiding, I even tried raiding from 2am-4am 3 days a week, but I was so tired at work, at that time I had to played casual.

    Quote Originally Posted by aGit View Post
    there's flex, LFR, pet battles, pvp, proving grounds, dailies and more and you have the nerves to ask for more casual content. oh please.
    i think what he ment, is more difficulty in end content for casuals, I understand him, LFR doesn't feel challenging for a casual player.

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Dunno about how your time zones over there, but we had a mother/daughter pair that raided with us for some time that were playing from Holland. Had a member who played from Australia. Where there is a will there is a way.
    That's great, but not all guilds do that, in fact, most of them don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    I'm still not convinced that even 10% of capable and willing WoW subscribers are bogged down by their obligations to raid.
    I buy that most subscribers may not like elements of raiding like schedules and possible meani-heads but mostly I feel it's part of a shitty problem with players defeatist attitude.

    It's like how most players who don't like PvP is because they are bad at it and feel helpless so they desist.
    Well, to be fair the game is 10 years old, some players including me, grown up with the game, over the time we have gain different responsabilities, I mean I don't have the same amount of time I used to had when I was in highschool or college.
    Last edited by Trollhamaren; 2013-11-07 at 06:27 AM.
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  18. #2178
    Quote Originally Posted by aGit View Post
    there's flex, LFR, pet battles, pvp, proving grounds, dailies and more and you have the nerves to ask for more casual content. oh please.
    Well that's the whole problem. They're serving us garbage like LFR and dailies as "casual content" so we quit. Rubbish content is even worse than no content at all, when there's no content you can sit bored in town and chat or whatever but LFR is so toxic it actually made me dislike playing the game.

    But whatever. I vote with my wallet and if they serve me dailies as "content", they can forget it.

  19. #2179
    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    There aren't any. I don't think it's possible at all to raid unless you have a fairly normal schedule. I worked as a bartender for a while when I was a student and raiding was completely impossible with that schedule. I would have had free time for a while in the afternoon but there simply weren't any afternoon raiding guilds.

    The problem is that there are *tons* of people who have a regular 9 to 5 schedule or something very close while those of us with a different schedule don't fall into the same group. The guy who works with mail might have to wake up before dawn but he gets off work really early and has extra time in the morning. The bartender might have extra time in the afternoon. The night shift guy at the factory would have extra time at some other time. All the people with non-standard schedules have different non-standard schedules while all the standard schedule people have roughly the same standard schedule.

    I don't know if this is any easier on US servers where you might have English-speaking guilds on different time zones but in EU most countries have one time zone and all the international guilds raid on a schedule that works roughly right for 9-to-5 people in CET or close. I can't exactly join a Russian guild to raid earlier when I don't know a word of Russian.

    As for anyone saying "raiding is just like any hobby, you have to schedule", well, that's simply not true. You can take a martial arts class and they won't mind at all if you don't show up every once in a while. Raiding guilds DO mind because the guild is making an investment in you every time it gives you a piece of raid gear that could have gone to a member that shows up more. PvP is much friendlier to non-standard schedules since gear is "personal" and you can keep yourself geared without making a scheduled run each week.

    The problem with gear as a carrot is that you absolutely need it to perform in the raid which means while the gearing incentive keeps a certain part of the player population raiding it also keeps a certain population out of raids. You need to keep yourself geared up to get into raids and the only way to keep yourself geared up is raids. This is absolutely brutal for people with non-standard schedules. They've misdiagnosed the problem and gave us the garbage that is LFR which really is what made me quit (this flex mode sounds like it might help the problem, though, I'll have to give the new expansion a go).
    It's kind of sad everytime I see a couple of people that work swing shifts or looking for late night raiding create a guild that just crashes and burns because the like minds won't come together. If you have stable leadership and a few willing to step up to take over a raid leader when nobody else is around then it could work.

  20. #2180
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Even so, Blizzard probably would be smart to pull some resources away from raiding then and to put it into a different kind of end-game.
    They just stated their development team is bigger than ever following Titan team being reassigned to other projects. They should go back to a model where there is different content for different play styles, instead of one small set of content with 4 modes.

    I was a casual in Vanilla and did organized raiding from TBC to mid Cata before quitting. If I were to come back to the game it would be as a casual. However, WoW has no interesting casual content at all. LFR is the most repulsive idea I've ever heard, it's down right insulting. As a casual I would want a vanilla style casual experience where I can have fun leveling, questing, exploring and doing 5 mans. Back then the game had depth, it offered a great casual experience while still offering a hardcore raiding experience (and everything in between). Today WoW is shallow beyond belief, just one small set of content that everyone is pushed through on Blizzard's patch schedule. Why can't they give me a World of Warcraft again?

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