1. #2201
    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    Take a look at the expenditures and net income(loss) for quarter 3 2013 and realize what a SUBSTANTIAL loss they're still taking trying to make the game better for people such as yourself (just in case you can't find it, "80,5%" of their total earnings are put back into keeping Blizzard alive). In future, don't refer to accounting sheets if you haven't the slightest of what they portray.
    What a hilarious way to interpret this data. :-)

    Are you really suggesting that Blizzard are losing subs and income, BECAUSE they are trying to pander to casuals? Why do you think that? I am not asking for facts even, I know nobody has them, but... what is your logic, exactly?

    Please do this for me: pick a feature you think Blizzard implemented while trying to pander to casuals (please, only pick LFR if you can't pick anything else), then answer the following question: do you really think if Blizzard DIDN'T implement that particular feature, they would have lost less subs and income?

    In my opinion, they are losing subs exactly because they are failing to engage casuals by tying everything into raids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Secondly, the Burdens that offer 535s would take considerably longer, and aren't doing anything to address the lack of dungeon content. For that, I suppose Valor still counts from the same tired old Heroics that I've been doing for nearly 2 years, but again, they're 2 years old. Even the more recent scenarios are outdated by this point.
    Here is a thing with Burdens that would hopefully make it clear why farming them - apart from a couple guaranteed ones - adds very little to the game: you could ALWAYS get the best gear in this game by farming. Just farm gold, lots of it, then buy a carry. Of course, very few people do this, and I think the main reason isn't because it takes too long (making 100k or 200k is a fair challenge, but after you do it once, you can repeat it with relatively little effort in very reasonable time), but because it is boring for them. And it can be boring, absolutely, unless you are heavily into gold and AH, which few people are. It's exactly the same with Burdens - yes, people can farm them, but it is just super-boring for most.

  2. #2202
    Quote Originally Posted by Saxtorph View Post
    I sort of agree with the bolded segment. Of course the counter to the easy leveling is personal restraint, you know? Just don't use heirlooms. But we all know it's more rewarding to complain on the forums than it is to accept personal responsibility for ones choices and purposefully create a more difficult, and possibly fun, leveling experience.
    Even without heirlooms, the leveling experience is a shadow of its former self. Heirlooms are not the issue, you can get a roughly equivalent power level with a handful of dungeon blues. I have personal experience in the matter. Short of going afk, you will NOT be killed by world mobs. No group quests/elites. Dungeons are far far easier.
    Players are just given really powerful tools very early on, and the mobs capabilities haven't increased to match. The only way you could make things remotely difficult is restricting yourself to white gear, as some people have done.

  3. #2203
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    What a hilarious way to interpret this data. :-)

    Are you really suggesting that Blizzard are losing subs and income, BECAUSE they are trying to pander to casuals? Why do you think that? I am not asking for facts even, I know nobody has them, but... what is your logic, exactly?

    Please do this for me: pick a feature you think Blizzard implemented while trying to pander to casuals (please, only pick LFR if you can't pick anything else), then answer the following question: do you really think if Blizzard DIDN'T implement that particular feature, they would have lost less subs and income?

    In my opinion, they are losing subs exactly because they are failing to engage casuals by tying everything into raids.
    It is indeed a poor way of interpreting it, nevertheless, still points out that they aren't sitting with numbers of say 50% expenditures and literally "rolling" in money whilst doing nothing to make the game better. I believe Blizzard is losing money by trying to cater for too many different varieties at once - My logic according to this is as follows: Although this being my own opinion, I believe they should stick to what they already have set in motion and just make it more sound and solid thus keeping their committed subscribers and making them happier whilst bringing out occasional new content to lure in new customers.

    My example would be the overall difficulty of the game. People in general have the tendency to keep trying/playing when they can't get something right (To an extent of course.) and thus locking them into the game for a longer period until said-"something" has been achieved. Blizzard now having lowered effort needed to be put in and overall time spent to play the game basically leads to people reaching 90 in a week and then quitting due to it becoming very bland and boring (Speaking of course about people who don't do normal or heroic raiding - as this, eliminates the problem of making it "too" easy.).
    Last edited by sQish; 2013-11-07 at 01:27 PM.

  4. #2204
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Why is it a bad thing to go go go?
    Its a lot harder to enjoy the atmosphere of the dungeon, look at the scenery, check out that item drop, read that quest text, etc. Sometimes a slower pace is just nicer. Just like raid trash is a nice break from relentless boss attempts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Why are you playing the game if you don't even want to look at what you're doing? They might as well just set you up with a "win" button that you can bash repeatedly for valor points. Do you really think it's fun for four other people to just follow you and collect loot? Blizzard deliberately gave tanks skills that allows them to charge ahead of the group and perform massive AoE in order to retain threat. I don't think their intent was to enable tanks to solo everything, but that's the current reality. This style of play may be engaging for tanks, but not for the other four party members.
    I have mixed feelings about it. Currently in low level dungeons chainpulling is usually the only way I'll take a decent amount of damage, thus giving the healer something to do. For the most part low level prot warrs are OP enough that they can solo trash and quite a few bosses. Everyone else in the group just makes it faster. But if that also means that a newbie tank can go in and slowly clear through everything without being quite as adept, that's fine I suppose.
    Having the option of the classic/TBC "pull 1 pack, dps to death, healer drinks to full, pull next pack" might be nice now and then but I'd hazard a guess only a small minority would be interested in queuing for such an experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    You're kidding right? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, I could give you a million dollars for free and you'd still want more. It's a time-based dungeon challenge that you could complete in any amount of time - completing it within the gold boundaries i.e. resulting in an actual "challenge" is what results in gear being rewarded. The group who joins a CM gold run joins for the EXACT purpose of working hard and focusing hence the name "CHALLENGE" mode.
    I can see where the other person is coming from. Making something challenging just by slapping a timer on it(Algalon, ZA bear run), limited attempts(ICC wing bosses) or requiring zero errors or tryovers(Naxx Immortal) isn't as fun as something being straight up difficult to begin with(say Yogg+0).

    So yeah, I think its legitimate to want a dungeon at or beyond Challenge Mode difficulty, but without the "oh someone had to stop moving for 30 seconds, cancel the run".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Raiders bitched about how long it was taking them to level alternate characters with which to correct deficiencies in group compositions and Blizzard responded by gutting casuals' primary form of in-game entertainment. Yet somehow the casuals are the needy whiners in all this. I don't follow your logic.
    Please. Tons of casuals complained about the time spent leveling before they got to the "real" game. And casuals were more likely to be subject to multiple alts as unlike raiders there was less incentive to concentrate on one character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The decision of why raids and not cms for gear IS arbitrary though. It's done based largely on what the developers think is fun. I agree gearing is attractive to a large portion of the player base so why is it that raiding has an enormous preponderance on gear?
    Gearing is a useful means of lengthening content. For example, most guilds needed to farm early heroic ICC for gear to kill LK heroic. Or you farm Ulduar for more legendary maces to help with healing in ToTC and ICC. You farm KT, Malygos and Sarth3D for gear to do Ulduar. And so on.

    Because Challenge Modes are mostly a case of clear it once on gold for the rewards/best server time and then leave it alone, it doesn't have the same longevity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Hitting 1 buttons over and over is boring as hell, perhaps you just don't like games? At least games that require thinking? That is not meant as an insult either it is meant more as saying perhaps FPS games are more your style.
    A lot of the gameplay in TBC came from reacting to boss mechanics inbetween pushing your 1 button dps rotation. Switch targets to this, aoe now, move out of the raid with the debuff, stack on the raid, etc. And you still had potions, trinkets, defensive cooldowns(if you were lucky) to worry about now and then.

    But its definitely harder at the highest level of raiding to minmax a harder rotation AND pay attention to raid mechanics. Just that none of that really applies to LFR. Reading the Core Abilities tab in your Spellbook should be enough to get you an acceptable rotation for LFR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    So you dislike the entire purpose of WoW
    Raiding is not the entire purpose of WoW and never has been. Its literally something added in for people who hit max level and had way too much time on their hands to stop them from quitting once they were done with dungeons. The far more common pattern was hitting max level, screwing around with dungeons and battlegrounds for a bit, then quitting and being replaced with more casual levelers. But now that the flow of new casuals as dried up somewhat, Blizzard are interested in keeping them around by giving them stuff other than traditional raiding to do at max level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    You're mistaken again. The main purpose of WoW HAS and ALWAYS WILL BE the PvE side of it. In vanilla you had to farm 6months to reach lvl 60. The talent trees back in vanilla and TBC were MUCH more complicated than MoP's.
    Just highlighting two incorrect bits. Leveling was nowhere near that timeconsuming. I'd measure it in weeks of casual play or days of grinding, at most.
    And most of the Vanilla/TBC talent trees choices were quite simple. You'd only have a few active abilities, and they'd all have shorter tooltips compared to a lot of the current ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    Non-existing is better term.
    Confirming I started raiding in a non-existent 10 man raiding guild in TBC.

  5. #2205
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    His point is that Blizzard should provide something other than LFR to do so that he wouldn't have to run LFR any more to feel like his character is going places. What you described is pretty much the current state of the game. I think Blizzard can do better than what they've been doing. Corralling everyone into raids isn't working out so well.
    As I outlined earlier, there's plenty more for him to do. Is a bigger reward in LFR going to make him feel like he's 'going places?' Unlikely, as those rewards become expectations rather quickly, and then it's back to the same old complaining.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse

  6. #2206
    Better relationships between players should be encouraged in an MMO.

    I think players should be rewarded for running an scenarios and dungeons in a full-guild group, and in raids for "almost" full guild groups based on the ratio of guildees in a raid similar to what's required for raid guild achievements.

    The question then becomes how to reward them. Simple. Guild Tokens are rewarded for running in such groups with guild vendors offering fairly decent gear, as well as guild cosmetic stuff, that's, say, 2-3 GS points better than whatever the current LFR GS is.

    The game is more fun playing with friends. Everyone knows that. Make it easier and more rewarding to make friends. Guild Tokens.

  7. #2207
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Even without heirlooms, the leveling experience is a shadow of its former self.
    The leveling experience was changed because Blizzard had data -- which blues mentioned more than once -- that many players quit before reaching level cap. I am quite sure they redesigned the leveling content with retention of those sorts of players in mind.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  8. #2208
    Quote Originally Posted by Dvaldin View Post
    Better relationships between players should be encouraged in an MMO.

    I think players should be rewarded for running an scenarios and dungeons in a full-guild group, and in raids for "almost" full guild groups based on the ratio of guildees in a raid similar to what's required for raid guild achievements.

    The question then becomes how to reward them. Simple. Guild Tokens are rewarded for running in such groups with guild vendors offering fairly decent gear, as well as guild cosmetic stuff, that's, say, 2-3 GS points better than whatever the current LFR GS is.

    The game is more fun playing with friends. Everyone knows that. Make it easier and more rewarding to make friends. Guild Tokens.
    Then guilds become perceived as 'mandatory', and those subscribers with persecution complexes feel that it's unfair that they have to group to get good rewards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The leveling experience was changed because Blizzard had data -- which blues mentioned more than once -- that many players quit before reaching level cap. I am quite sure they redesigned the leveling content with retention of those sorts of players in mind.
    Then the sooner those people leave, the better. Leveling is an absolute joke.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse

  9. #2209
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The leveling experience was changed because Blizzard had data -- which blues mentioned more than once -- that many players quit before reaching level cap. I am quite sure they redesigned the leveling content with retention of those sorts of players in mind.
    I agree, but it seems their thinking was:

    "hm, these people don't even get to max level, where the real game is, if they only got to max level, they'd see that end game and continue playing, so let's make leveling more interesting but, more importantly, make it shorter, so they reach the max level very fast"

    In effect, their response to "a lot of people don't get to max level" was "fine, let's speed them up so that they get to max level, it's better there", instead of trying to improve the leveling game so that it retains people by itself.

    I don't think what they did worked all that well.

  10. #2210
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Then the sooner those people leave, the better. Leveling is an absolute joke.
    It's also incredibly boring and doesn't reflect all the end game experience. If some of the awesome sauce of WoW's endgame could be glimpsed through levelling, it would probably attract more new players. You know, instead of just making levelling a mindlessly easy grind.

  11. #2211
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Then the sooner those people leave, the better. Leveling is an absolute joke.
    The leveling is an absolute joke because Blizzard made it that.

  12. #2212
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Then guilds become perceived as 'mandatory', and those subscribers with persecution complexes feel that it's unfair that they have to group to get good rewards.
    I'm of the personal opinion that players should feel that it's mandatory to be part of a guild, you know, since it's an MMO and all and the purpose is kinda to play with other people. I think justice badges should be dropped and those who want to play solo could continue to be rewarded valor to get gear that's, say, a couple of points less than what's in LFR—or something similar to the timeless isle drops for them.

    Plus, some subscribers should feel persecuted because of their poor attitudes. We can have our small violins ready for those who cry, "You're forcing us to run with guildees!"

  13. #2213
    The Patient Freezeframe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post

    If Blizzard doesn't manage to add an endgame to the next expansion which offers the same excitement and rewards as normal or heroic raiding, but for casual players, who just want to play when they feel like it, then this will be the expansion that will cause the entire ship to sink.

    [/U]
    This will never happen. That is why you are called casual. You don't care to put in the same work that other players do, so why should you get the same rewards at a quarter of the work? Expecting everything to be handed to you and then getting mad when you aren't handed those things on a silver platter is why you feel like the game is shit. You feel like it is shit because it's not babying you. The game isn't shit if you're good and nor can this game get any easier or more geared towards casuals. There's no point in playing an MMO if you can't obtain things that not everyone can easily obtain. They may lose more casuals subs, but at least the game won't be complete shit. If a bunch of terrible players are getting Heroic Raid gear handed to them in a way that doesn't involve actually killing heroic fights, that is when this game becomes "pure shite."
    "Ok, fuck it, I lied. It's drum and bass."


  14. #2214
    Quote Originally Posted by topcatti View Post
    Why cant casuals raid normal, or even heroic? Really tell me. Play the game for 3 hours, 2 or 3 times a week? jesus
    cancel LFR and i'm sure more will run normal.

  15. #2215
    Quote Originally Posted by koekai View Post
    cancel LFR and i'm sure more will run normal.
    Probably not many more, since the number of raiders before LFR wasn't much greater than the number of non-LFR raiders now.

  16. #2216
    Quote Originally Posted by Freezeframe View Post
    This will never happen. That is why you are called casual. You don't care to put in the same work that other players do, so why should you get the same rewards at a quarter of the work? Expecting everything to be handed to you and then getting mad when you aren't handed those things on a silver platter is why you feel like the game is shit. You feel like it is shit because it's not babying you. The game isn't shit if you're good and nor can this game get any easier or more geared towards casuals. There's no point in playing an MMO if you can't obtain things that not everyone can easily obtain. They may lose more casuals subs, but at least the game won't be complete shit. If a bunch of terrible players are getting Heroic Raid gear handed to them in a way that doesn't involve actually killing heroic fights, that is when this game becomes "pure shite."
    You're off the mark with almost every word you said, and you are making a ton of assumptions.

    First, you assume casuals don't want to work to earn rewards... patently false. If there was a proper end game that would let casual players earn on their terms, for example solo or small group content, then there's no reason that shouldn't please them.

    I mean, aren't casuals already getting gear handed to them in LFR? Why not get rid of LFR and make a PROPER alternative to raiding end game (which is not what LFR is anyway...) and they will aspire to the occasion.

    The mistake Blizzard made was beleiving and then forcing everyone into a raid.

  17. #2217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    Bolded the parts that are never going to happen.
    The whole argument is just broken.
    They want equal rewards to legit raiders? That means they need to invest the same time and effort.
    Which 'casuals' cannot because they are not willing to, or suck donkey dick at the game
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  18. #2218
    Quote Originally Posted by machineman View Post
    The mistake Blizzard made was beleiving and then forcing everyone into a raid.
    WoW was always all about raid. I see complaints on a high level. Back in the days, vanilla was casual unfriendly (in the eyes of many), since then blizzard had implemented so much more options for every type of player. And still it's not enough. Some people should think about that.

  19. #2219
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Then guilds become perceived as 'mandatory', and those subscribers with persecution complexes feel that it's unfair that they have to group to get good rewards.
    have to play with other others in an online mulitplayer game? Thats uber crazy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    WoW was always all about raid.
    the game is bout going around killing things, stealing stuff so you can kill more stuff
    Raiding is just the hardest/complex version of that activity
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  20. #2220
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    The whole argument is just broken.
    They want equal rewards to legit raiders? That means they need to invest the same time and effort.
    Which 'casuals' cannot because they are not willing to, or suck donkey dick at the game
    And why does this break the argument?? Please read the thread, nobody is talking about getting raid epics for less time and effort than raiders.

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