1. #2301
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    The overwhelmingly vast majority of WoW players have never killed a current-tier raid boss above LFR level
    i think you'd be surprised by the actual hard data of players trying flexi out.
    My weekly podcast can be downloaded here this week male breast feeding, batman and near death experiences

  2. #2302
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I feel like Captain Obvious when making this thread, but the game right now? It's shit. Not just normal shit, but pure shite.

    LFR? There's no fun in LFR. You run through it once to see the content... and next week you cancel your subscription again until the next raidpatch. In fact I didn't even bother doing LFR either for the last patch, since I already know it's just going to be a huge timedrain of mashing my DPS buttons on an easy boss that takes too long to drop dead.

    Timeless Isle, Proving Grounds, Brawler's Guild? Irrelevant content. I might be a casual, but that doesn't mean that I want to do challenging content that doesn't reward anything. I still like to feel my character growing stronger and earning rewards for the challenges that are offered to me.

    If Blizzard doesn't manage to add an endgame to the next expansion which offers the same excitement and rewards as normal or heroic raiding, but for casual players, who just want to play when they feel like it, then this will be the expansion that will cause the entire ship to sink.

    Edit:
    One of the things I'd also like to point at is the fact that I used the words: "Casual exciting" in the title instead of "casual friendly".

    I think the difference is very important, because yes, people are right MoP is the most casual friendly ever, but is it casual exciting? Nope. And that is where the problem lies.
    Dude you complain about the things you mentioned, but there is much more to do than even those. you complain about lfr and norm or Heroic raiding, that's why they made flex :P Then there is battlegrounds,rated battlegrounds, arenas, timeless isle with the Censor. These are alot of fun and full of excitement. The problem is you choose not to be excited, you're prolly burnt out on playing the game. Then maybe you need to just quit, but what game would you play? since every game is mashing buttons? MoP inmy opinion is 2nd best expansion besides LK I have my reasons. If you play the game just to log in do lfr and unsub, maybe you should just quit because you're pathetic.
    Last edited by Goretex; 2013-11-07 at 06:02 PM.

  3. #2303
    Quote Originally Posted by Beararmz View Post
    I'll answer this question it's quite simple. It comes down to your raids personality. I have raided with douche bag elite assholes that would clear the whole instance and brag about how great they were ect... when I was in the top 3 dps. And would rotate people out on fights ect.. I couldn't stand listening to these guys in vent completely talking shit about other guildmates behind their backs ect... I would rather much raid with people that are chill and laid back than a bunch of asswipes that clear a raid instance in one night. I'd rather raid 3 nights and maybe not even complete the raid instance if the people are cool but still don't have the skill as the elite asshole. I will however say some progression has to be made.
    These douche bag elites are talking about can't function in a high level guild because it breaks all the rules in the book. Mutual respect and knowing that everyone else is also giving it 110% is the only way to tolerate wiping hundreds of times on the same boss. You have not been a member of a functioning high end guild.

    The worse the guild, the longer you will have to raid for. Time is pretty essential in todays society so some players might not be able to play at all if they aren't able to complete it quickly on a regular basis after the first few weeks of "learning" the fights.

  4. #2304
    Quote Originally Posted by Freaky Fred View Post
    Level scaling. This would bring back tons of content. Just think of all the old raids and dungeons. Maybe even a new feature like a new ethereal dude in the transmog and void storage team that would bring an old raid item to a certain item level, 1000g per item for example.

    Of course for the with not enough time, there could always be 2 raids per expansion with only 2 or 3 bosses, or more Onyxia type raids.
    No it wouldn't, I've talked to a few people about this idea and they're just like meh it's old content. And I personally wouldn't do it because I've been through the old content so many times. If there isn't xmog gear I don't already have I wouldn;t wanna do it unless I would help a friend or soemthing. Otherwise I would never do this, and 1000g and item fuck that man way too expensive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strafir View Post
    These douche bag elites are talking about can't function in a high level guild because it breaks all the rules in the book. Mutual respect and knowing that everyone else is also giving it 110% is the only way to tolerate wiping hundreds of times on the same boss. You have not been a member of a functioning high end guild.

    The worse the guild, the longer you will have to raid for. Time is pretty essential in todays society so some players might not be able to play at all if they aren't able to complete it quickly on a regular basis after the first few weeks of "learning" the fights.
    Actually I have been in a high end raiding guild before and it's not that fun, complete and utter shitty people. And you mention completing a raid quickly that shows how the gaming culture is changing with the new crowd they full of ADD and everything has to be fast and right now! yea there are cases where people have real life and work to deal with, well that's what LFR and flex is for.
    Last edited by Goretex; 2013-11-07 at 06:17 PM.

  5. #2305
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Name a major story arc that didn't culminate in a raid. It wasn't "all about" the raid per se, but raiding has always been the top of the end game food chain.
    Vanilla didn't really have any major story arcs that most people would care about. Raiding was just there. Even that story where you expose Onyxia in Stormwind ends there, killing Onyxia wasn't part of it. TBC had stories that culminated in raids, but they weren't generally that interesting to anyone that wasn't a lore enthusiast. Everything changed in Wrath, though.

  6. #2306
    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    There is just as much content out now as back then (even more if you add all the expansions up vs original)
    Yes, but ironically, there is much less content that advances your character in any meaningful way now as back then, and Blizzard keeps making changes to decrease the amount of that content further. Even without any heirlooms on I can't finish a given zone without having it go green on me. If I happen to run an instance or two in the interim it's guaranteed gray before I'm done. The content is somewhat enjoyable, but the nagging sense that you're hindering your character's progression by indulging in it is not. That's what new players and casual players are faced with. In WotLK I spent months working through the various zones and didn't hit level 80 until I was about half way through ICC. At that point I still had incentives to finish the zone because it contained lots of intriguing lore as well as relevant level 80 gear for newly dinged 80s. Fast forward to MoP, and I dinged 90 in less than a week about half way through the Klaxxi area. I finished up because I'm a completionist, not because I particularly cared to help out a bunch of hostile bug people, and I was rewarded with a bunch of dailies that would eventually give rewards if I were to repeatedly grind them out for three weeks or so. Do you not understand the difference between working through novel content for several months with the anticipation of a nice reward at the end and rushing through novel content in scant days only to be faced with the dread a repetitive months-long grind for your reward? In both cases you're taking months to get your reward, but in the latter case you're bored out of your mind the entire time.

    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    but the newly found "casual" player has nagged for it to be easier and more accessible thus destroying that very "viable" play style you're referring to.
    Every post I have seen nagging for ease and accessiblity has come from raiders who were frustrated with the time it was taking to level alts and/or prepare new guildies for raids. I have yet to see a post from an actual casual demanding accessibility to raids or that non-raid content be made easier. You can believe that if it makes you feel better, but I have yet to see a credible case for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    Time Isle. 30minutes and you've achieved this "inbetween" gear you've been asking for whilst in putting almost ZERO effort.
    Do you really think that's fun for casuals? Who gives a crap if loot is just handed out? It's still a repetitive 30 minutes of killing trash mobs with elite labels on them. If you're in a heavily populated area you can zerg through it easily. Maybe for you the point of the game is getting better loot. Getting better loot is not the same as progressing your character. Granted, it's a part of it, but you're still skipping over the fun portion of the process where you're working through new content and lore in anticipation of a reward.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  7. #2307
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Yes, but ironically, there is much less content that advances your character in any meaningful way now as back then, and Blizzard keeps making changes to decrease the amount of that content further. Even without any heirlooms on I can't finish a given zone without having it go green on me. If I happen to run an instance or two in the interim it's guaranteed gray before I'm done. The content is somewhat enjoyable, but the nagging sense that you're hindering your character's progression by indulging in it is not. That's what new players and casual players are faced with. In WotLK I spent months working through the various zones and didn't hit level 80 until I was about half way through ICC. At that point I still had incentives to finish the zone because it contained lots of intriguing lore as well as relevant level 80 gear for newly dinged 80s. Fast forward to MoP, and I dinged 90 in less than a week about half way through the Klaxxi area. I finished up because I'm a completionist, not because I particularly cared to help out a bunch of hostile bug people, and I was rewarded with a bunch of dailies that would eventually give rewards if I were to repeatedly grind them out for three weeks or so. Do you not understand the difference between working through novel content for several months with the anticipation of a nice reward at the end and rushing through novel content in scant days only to be faced with the dread a repetitive months-long grind for your reward? In both cases you're taking months to get your reward, but in the latter case you're bored out of your mind the entire time.


    Every post I have seen nagging for ease and accessiblity has come from raiders who were frustrated with the time it was taking to level alts and/or prepare new guildies for raids. I have yet to see a post from an actual casual demanding accessibility to raids or that non-raid content be made easier. You can believe that if it makes you feel better, but I have yet to see a credible case for it.


    Do you really think that's fun for casuals? Who gives a crap if loot is just handed out? It's still a repetitive 30 minutes of killing trash mobs with elite labels on them. If you're in a heavily populated area you can zerg through it easily. Maybe for you the point of the game is getting better loot. Getting better loot is not the same as progressing your character. Granted, it's a part of it, but you're still skipping over the fun portion of the process where you're working through new content and lore in anticipation of a reward.
    Can you come up with a solution then? Like how or what would you do that's exactly better? LK quests were killing mobs and dropping loot just like you complain about. Yea lvling a character feels less rewarding because of the zones but really it hasn't changed much it's just the color of the quests. So either do them or don't. Lore was different back then I liek it better because of the undead lich king snowy environment feel, but lore now is just as imerrsive just different.

  8. #2308
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Do you really think that's fun for casuals? Who gives a crap if loot is just handed out? It's still a repetitive 30 minutes of killing trash mobs with elite labels on them. If you're in a heavily populated area you can zerg through it easily. Maybe for you the point of the game is getting better loot. Getting better loot is not the same as progressing your character. Granted, it's a part of it, but you're still skipping over the fun portion of the process where you're working through new content and lore in anticipation of a reward.
    Getting better loot is the very definition of progressing your character. What other items could you possibly define as "progressing" your character?

  9. #2309
    Quote Originally Posted by Terielx1 View Post
    and that was kinda w/e with stuff like lust, but i mean... how is a warlock much different than a shadow priest in terms of play style now? or a Ret paladin different from an Arms warrior. the answer is not much
    Shadow and affliction share similarities but demonology and destro are fairly different. Arms is one of the best cleave specs in the game while ret is nonexistent? Also skull banner vs lay on hands? I guess they both have 2 handers though.

  10. #2310
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    i think you'd be surprised by the actual hard data of players trying flexi out.
    I think they said it was what, as popular as Normal? So like single-digit percentages, maybe 10% if you're really lucky. Woo impressive.

  11. #2311
    Quote Originally Posted by Terielx1 View Post
    yes but what you are forgetting is that blizzard tried to do that with cataclysm dungeons at launch, they were longer, told more of a story, and had really neat things about them... 70% of the player base hated them because it was slowing down their JP and VP farm.
    70% of the player base hated them because they took 3 hours to complete with a random group, awarded VP in an all-or-nothing fashion, and didn't give gear that was even relevant to the end game. I don't think that players would even have minded the difficulty so much if they had cut the amount of trash and/or bosses for each dungeon in half. Grim Batol was fun, but after wiping on the General three times and on Throngus another three times, players weren't inclined to stick around, given that the first half had already been so brutal and time-consuming. It didn't help that Throngus had a really nice tanking trinket so most tanks who queued for that instance immediately dropped after that fight. In fact, at the end they did cut the amount of trash and bosses in each instance in half, except they also reduced the difficulty to the point where it was a complete joke. The problem is that Blizzard doesn't make small tweaks. They just swing between extremes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terielx1 View Post
    i hate to break this to you man but there are more people out there who want instant gratification than those wanting to be explorers and be trapped in a 5 man with people who dont know what they are doing for an hour...
    I think an hour is OK. The problem with Cataclysm was that it was more like three or four hours. That's just too much time for a casual player to endure in one shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terielx1 View Post
    maybe if they add some dungeons that arent part of the LFG tool and offer different rewards aside from the challenge modes but even then, watch how many people actually do that content if the rewards arent substantial.
    I don't see any benefit to this at all. Why go backwards? LFG brought dungeons to many players who had previously missed out on them completely. Also, it's nice to be able to experience that feeling that your character is growing ever-more powerful. That's the basis of the MMO experience. You steadily get that that from level 1 all the way to level 90 with minimal effort. I understand that you want to slow down the acquisition of power at max level, but putting a complete halt to it for non-raiders immediately removes the primary source of the game's appeal for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terielx1 View Post
    Oh and blizzard also tried making dungeons content Via scenarios, most people hated those too, found them boring, rewards werent good enough to do them, etc...
    You can practically solo scenarios, and they mostly award JP. If I'm looking to buy heirlooms I'll do scenarios. Otherwise, what's the point? They're effectively group quests, and those are only fun for a handful of times.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  12. #2312
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    I think they said it was what, as popular as Normal? So like single-digit percentages, maybe 10% if you're really lucky. Woo impressive.
    10% of what? You're telling me 90% of WoW raiders only do LFR? God, we're doomed. The casuals have finally won.

  13. #2313
    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    It's similar to how they fucked up the VP from dungeons this expac... 1 each day instead of the first 7. They shoudl have left it the first 7 as then you have the option to log on do 1 a day OR chain run them on that day you have time. Giving less options to a playerbase is never a good way to up retention.
    Well said. This change pissed me off to no end and I don't see how it benefited the game in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    Similarly I doubt they will ever bring back heroic dungeons that are 5 man and not in lfd that give progression loot. It would be too much of a small % of the playerbase that they would be developign for and again peoepl would be up in arms that all that dev time went to hardcores while the casuals were ignored. Not syaing I agree and I would love TBC style 5 mans (god I miss the days of people knowing how to... CC of all things!) but by and large I can recognise that it is a very small % that would be into that kind of dungeon (see cata launch).
    I don't think the difficulty was as much of a problem as their duration. The dungeons were not only difficult, but they featured way too much trash and way too many bosses for the difficulty level. With fewer trash and less bosses I think players would have played through the difficulty and overcome it. I experienced many wipes in the ICC dungeons when they first dropped, but with only two bosses, most players stuck it out and eventually mastered the strategies to the point where they're now remembered as facerolls by most players.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  14. #2314
    Warchief Packers01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beararmz View Post
    No it wouldn't, I've talked to a few people about this idea and they're just like meh it's old content. And I personally wouldn't do it because I've been through the old content so many times. If there isn't xmog gear I don't already have I wouldn;t wanna do it unless I would help a friend or soemthing. Otherwise I would never do this, and 1000g and item fuck that man way too expensive.

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    Actually I have been in a high end raiding guild before and it's not that fun, complete and utter shitty people. And you mention completing a raid quickly that shows how the gaming culture is changing with the new crowd they full of ADD and everything has to be fast and right now! yea there are cases where people have real life and work to deal with, well that's what LFR and flex is for.
    So the guild you were in sucked and all guilds suck, got it. It's pathetic how much this argument gets tossed around.

  15. #2315
    Quote Originally Posted by Myz View Post
    The cellist does not complain about the lack of brass sounds when he's not willing to meet up and play together with a saxophonist.
    The cellist does not require brass sounds to improve their playing, either. They'll get better with practice, regardless of whether or not a saxophonist is present.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  16. #2316
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    70% of the player base hated them because they took 3 hours to complete with a random group, awarded VP in an all-or-nothing fashion, and didn't give gear that was even relevant to the end game.
    I'm sorry, but the cata HC's where the end-game for the casual community. The problem with creating content for casuals is that they say that they want difficult challenging content, but what most of them actually want is something that can be steamrolled and then bragged about.

  17. #2317
    Warchief Packers01's Avatar
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    So to be clear there is now more thigns to do in game then ever before, but thats not enough.
    There is more raid content with more difficulty levels designed for everyone, but thats not enough.
    Blizz listened to everyone bitching about Cata heroics but that was not good enough.

    Until you can log in and get heroic level gear for doing nothing people will not be happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    I'm sorry, but the cata HC's where the end-game for the casual community. The problem with creating content for casuals is that they say that they want difficult challenging content, but what they actually want is something that can be steamrolled and then bragged about.
    100% correct. The dream to AFK by the mailbox still lives strong in them.

  18. #2318
    LFR is going to need automaton tanks so that it (1) pops faster and (2) doesn't hold 18-23 people hostage to the performance of the tanks/healers.

    If a tank queues, they can take the place of the automaton, but otherwise, LFR will need to pop w/o an actual tank character.

  19. #2319
    Quote Originally Posted by Kapulani View Post
    LFR is going to need automaton tanks so that it (1) pops faster and (2) doesn't hold 18-23 people hostage to the performance of the tanks/healers.

    If a tank queues, they can take the place of the automaton, but otherwise, LFR will need to pop w/o an actual tank character.
    In my opinion LFR would be best suited as an intermediate between normal dungeons and heroic dungeons. I would like to see:

    dinged 90 gz!
    → do Normal dungeons (lfd, perhaps the difficulty of current HC's)
    → option to do LFR
    → option to do heroic dungeons (difficult 5-man content need a pre formed group (no queuing))
    → Flex & so on

  20. #2320
    Pandaren Monk Myz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terielx1 View Post
    i agree with this post, cept a saxophone isnt a brass sound, it tries desperately to mimic them in an orchestra setting =P
    Details, details!

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