1. #2321
    Quote Originally Posted by Terielx1 View Post
    i never said they were dungeons, nor did i insult you in my post and don't appreciate you insulting me in yours, and how were dungeons in wrath not designed to be gear grinds? hmm? since that was when the LFD system first came into play. how were dungeons not designed to be gear grinds since BC when you had to get the heroics gear to raid? and also when the JP system was brought in. but back to scenarios, the point of scenarios was to tell a story, the arguement for dungeons was that people liked them for the exploration and the fun of running a dungeon, if the point is to add more content for the casual player then scenarios did just that, yet people still hate them
    First of all, if you don't want to be called an idiot, don't write posts full of irrelevant crap that have nothing to do with anything.

    Second, Wrath Heroic Dungeons were easy. They were varied and easy and they worked perfectly for LFD. The problems arised when they introduced harder (true) heroics in Cata. They shouldn't have done that, true Heroics should be left out of LFD with Normals being the easy farmable mode for randoms.

    Third, you did not need gear from Heroics to get into Karazhan. Heroics were standalone content.

    Fourth, Scenarios aren't even close to the experience of Dungeons and they weren't designed to be. Dungeons are essentially mini-raids, they require a group of five with some coordination and have actual bosses. Scenarios are glorified group quests with snippets of lore that aren't designed to offer any challenge or need for cooperation, to leave group composition completely flexible. And, yes, you are arguing that scenarios are the same as dungeons as far as casual endgame content is concerned. You said so yourself : "and blizzard also tried making dungeons content Via scenarios".
    Last edited by Kevkul; 2013-11-07 at 07:46 PM.

  2. #2322
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    The thing is casuals never asked for LFR. No non-raider I ever met had the slightest interest in raiding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    When ICC came I wanted to continue raiding in pugs, but couldn't because there weren't any that didn't have ridiculous entry requirements. So I quit playing altogether.
    You said "to continue raiding," and to me that implies that you were previously raiding. My point was that no one who wasn't already raiding wanted anything like LFR. You wanted to raid and you were able to raid until you feel behind the gear curve. LFR solves that problem for you, as a raider, but it's not meeting this fictional demand from non-raiders that so many posts claim abounded.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-11-07 at 08:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  3. #2323
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    So to be clear there is now more thigns to do in game then ever before, but thats not enough.
    There is more raid content with more difficulty levels designed for everyone, but thats not enough.
    Blizz listened to everyone bitching about Cata heroics but that was not good enough.

    Until you can log in and get heroic level gear for doing nothing people will not be happy.
    Sure, there are more things to do at endgame. But overall, there is less relevant group content, which is a fatal flaw in an MMO.
    There are four difficulties at the moment, just like in Wrath where you had 10N, 25N, 10H and 25H. If anything, Cata is the odd one out with only two difficulties available.
    What they did AFTER Cata was garbage. The lowest dungeon count in the history of the game, each one tuned to be mindlessly easy even when they were released, now outgeared into sad indifference. So, no. Not good enough.

    People will be happy once they get group content (which is the whole point of an MMO) that is accessible, challenging and rewarding. All things LFR and Flex cannot be.

  4. #2324
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Have you done gold on all the challenge dungeons? Trust me, there is challenge there. Everyone has to be on their game, you cannot waste 1 precious second and everything hits like a fucking truck. The speed makes it challenging because you can't just pussy pull 1 group at a time, you have to be chain and multipulling and if the tank missteps or the healer fucks up for half a second boom, dead, gold run fucked.
    And you're telling me that this is meant to be appealing for casual players?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strafir View Post
    PS. What self respecting player would stay in a guild where he outperforms half the raid week after week. It just isn't fair someone needs to work twice as hard for something without being rewarded, and while it might be tolerable in small doses it will eventually become annoying enough to sever bonds by gquitting and surrounding yourself with players of your own kind. Something to think about.
    That's called being social. WoW is a game, not work. When I'm at work I expect to be rewarded for my efforts. When I play a game I expect to be entertained. If I'm pulling twice the DPS or twice the HPS as the next guy I have to same I'm entertained. I don't need a special piece of gear that's going to boost my performance from 200% of the next guy to 300% of the next guy in order to feel "rewarded." The entertainment is a reward in and of itself. That's not to say that I don't ever want gear; that feeling that my character is steadily progressing and growing stronger is entertaining too. My point is that I don't feel that I deserve that feeling any more than the next guy just because I happen to be more skilled at the game than they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Because raiding was the one end-game factor that folks felt excluded from? If folks don't want to raid, they still don't have to. There's plenty of other stuff to do.
    Agreed. It just so happens that the other stuff to do is about as much fun as watching paint dry. That's kind of why Blizzard is failing to engage casuals right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  5. #2325
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    alled being social. WoW is a game, not work. When I'm at work I expect to be rewarded for my efforts. When I play a game I expect to be entertained. If I'm pulling twice the DPS or twice the HPS as the next guy I have to same I'm entertained. I don't need a special piece of gear that's going to boost my performance from 200% of the next guy to 300% of the next guy in order to feel "rewarded." The entertainment is a reward in and of itself. That's not to say that I don't ever want gear; that feeling that my character is steadily progressing and growing stronger is entertaining too. My point is that I don't feel that I deserve that feeling any more than the next guy just because I happen to be more skilled at the game than they are.
    Other players under performing means you are likely to wipe. A lot, in fact. Which I'm not sure how anyone could consider fun or entertaining.

  6. #2326
    Quote Originally Posted by Beararmz View Post
    Can you come up with a solution then? Like how or what would you do that's exactly better?
    I think that several players on this thread have already come up with better solutions. Bringing back 5-mans would be a great start. Making the levelling process something that takes months rather than weeks again would also be nice. Long quest chains with meaningful rewards at the end would be nice. If it weren't for all the raid grinds mandated by the legendary cloak quest, I would say that was one of the more engaging aspects of this expansion. Unfortunately the valor, rep, and quest item grinds thrown into the middle of it kind of ruined it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beararmz View Post
    LK quests were killing mobs and dropping loot just like you complain about.
    I wasn't complaining about those style of quests during levelling. I was arguing that it's not a compelling way to distribute loot in the end game. I know that people "trash farmed" raid instances in WotLK, but I personally couldn't imagine any activity more boring than that. I turned down many a trash farming run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beararmz View Post
    Yea lvling a character feels less rewarding because of the zones but really it hasn't changed much it's just the color of the quests.
    And the XP that they give is dependent on color. So I immediately jump up two levels and then the rest of the time I'm making no progress. In the back of my head I realize that I'm already high enough level for the next zone and that if I simply drop my current set of quests and skip a zone I'll probably jump another two levels in the next hour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beararmz View Post
    So either do them or don't. Lore was different back then I liek it better because of the undead lich king snowy environment feel, but lore now is just as imerrsive just different.
    I'm not complaining about pre-panda lore, but there's very little incentive to even pay any attention to it. I'm not a fan of the current expansion's lore, but the lore is a secondary concern in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  7. #2327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I wasn't complaining about those style of quests during levelling. I was arguing that it's not a compelling way to distribute loot in the end game. I know that people "trash farmed" raid instances in WotLK, but I personally couldn't imagine any activity more boring than that. I turned down many a trash farming run.


    And the XP that they give is dependent on color. So I immediately jump up two levels and then the rest of the time I'm making no progress. In the back of my head I realize that I'm already high enough level for the next zone and that if I simply drop my current set of quests and skip a zone I'll probably jump another two levels in the next hour.
    So you are kind of contradicting yourself here, you want it to take longer but you opt to go the faster route? Why are you rushing if you want it to take longer?
    I'm in control, I Am Your Pain...
    After this you won't be the same...
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    YOU MESS WITH THIS AND YOU DIE LIKE A FOOL!

  8. #2328
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Getting better loot is the very definition of progressing your character. What other items could you possibly define as "progressing" your character?
    Once you've attained better loot you have progressed your character. The process of obtaining the loot is the progression itself. The loot is a milestone (sometimes even the end) of your progression. My Little Panda Adventure island hands you loot without requiring you to spend more than a few hours mindlessly farming mobs. To me that's not a compelling form of progression. It's the equivalent of trash farming raids with random PUGs. Blizzard nerfed that style of play for a reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  9. #2329
    I just got my Murkalot pet from buying the virtual ticket. In the mail it says "May Murkalot lead you to new adventures across the face of Azeroth and beyond"

    Are we going to space again?

  10. #2330
    Quote Originally Posted by Dvaldin View Post
    Better relationships between players should be encouraged in an MMO.

    I think players should be rewarded for running an scenarios and dungeons in a full-guild group, and in raids for "almost" full guild groups based on the ratio of guildees in a raid similar to what's required for raid guild achievements.
    There was a pretty nice reward in the form of guild exp and rep at the start of Cataclysm, but once we maxed out at level 25 the incentive mostly died off.

  11. #2331
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    I'm sorry, but the cata HC's where the end-game for the casual community. The problem with creating content for casuals is that they say that they want difficult challenging content, but what most of them actually want is something that can be steamrolled and then bragged about.
    Content that requires 3-4 hours for a group to complete is not "for the casual community." Maybe that's how Blizzard intended it, but their intentions went awry. I personally did not enjoy spending 3 hours in Grim Batol only to be booted right before the final boss because someone from three of the other members' guild had just logged on. That was not conducive to a pleasant casual experience. The problem with creating content for casuals is that Blizzard always makes it a 20-minute faceroll or a three-hour ordeal, but they never bother to look for the middle ground. If they had added the challenge without the two hours of trash, the all-or-nothing approach to rewards, and the disproportionate reward structure of early Cataclysm I think the content would have been much more successful. As it was, no one wanted to spend three hours in a dungeon for a shot at gear that was 13 ilevels lower than raid gear and awarded a fraction of the valor points that spending those same three hours in a raid would have netted you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    Show me one player who has demanded that. Until you can log in and get heroic level gear for doing nothing people will not be happy.
    If you want to be taken seriously at least make credible statements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    Other players under performing means you are likely to wipe. A lot, in fact. Which I'm not sure how anyone could consider fun or entertaining.
    And that's why raiding is not a social activity. It's ironic that so many posters claim that MMOs are social and that the focus of MMOs is raiding when the two are so completely at odds with each other. Raids are work, and they feel like work. To successfully raid I need colleagues, not friends.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  12. #2332
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    And you're telling me that this is meant to be appealing for casual players?
    No I wasn't. I was responding your statement:

    Also, how is it a challenge to be able to run content at that quick a pace? You're effectively rewarding me for facerolling a dungeon at that point. It you were able to complete it that quickly, it wasn't really a challenge now, was it?
    I was trying to point out that challenge modes are by no means a face roll. Everyone must know exactly what they are doing. It is a fucking stupid statement to say if you do something fast then it wasn't challenging.

  13. #2333
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    So you are kind of contradicting yourself here, you want it to take longer but you opt to go the faster route? Why are you rushing if you want it to take longer?
    I tried to make this clear, but I guess I failed. In the current environment you're being handed two levels up front and then being expected to churn through the rest of the zone knowing that if you simply abandoned all quests and moved on to the next zone you could continue progressing. At that point you either have the choice of abandoning everything you've been working towards and skipping over to a zone where you will continue to make progress focusing on your goal with the knowledge that you are going to effectively be treading water for the rest of the zone. I never said I was rushing. I said that I felt penalized for not rushing. It feels better to churn through content with the realization that if you can make it to the zone's ending you will have gained to levels than it does to be handed two levels up front. The former feels like progression, while the latter feels like a grind.

    To put it another way, Blizzard wonders why content is consumed faster than ever but they constantly throw out incentives to rush through content.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  14. #2334
    I have 7 kids, 12 jobs, have horrible arthritis and have intense short-term memory less.
    I'm sure Blizzard will keep me in mind when designing endgame content.

  15. #2335
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    And that's why raiding is not a social activity. It's ironic that so many posters claim that MMOs are social and that the focus of MMOs is raiding when the two are so completely at odds with each other. Raids are work, and they feel like work. To successfully raid I need colleagues, not friends.
    So someone cannot be a colleague and a friend? Also, just because something is difficult and requires coordination with multiple people it all of a sudden becomes work? Some people like their fun to be difficult, just because you don't doesnt mean their fun isn't valid.

  16. #2336
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    And that's why raiding is not a social activity. It's ironic that so many posters claim that MMOs are social and that the focus of MMOs is raiding when the two are so completely at odds with each other. Raids are work, and they feel like work. To successfully raid I need colleagues, not friends.
    Raiding is very much a social activity. Raids aren't challenging enough to require top notch players until Heroic difficulty, and even then they are very social in nature, only becoming business for the six minutes of an encounter. For Normal and Flex, you just need to have friends who aren't mentally retarded and you're in for a good time.

  17. #2337
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Content that requires 3-4 hours for a group to complete is not "for the casual community." Maybe that's how Blizzard intended it, but their intentions went awry. I personally did not enjoy spending 3 hours in Grim Batol only to be booted right before the final boss because someone from three of the other members' guild had just logged on. That was not conducive to a pleasant casual experience. The problem with creating content for casuals is that Blizzard always makes it a 20-minute faceroll or a three-hour ordeal, but they never bother to look for the middle ground.
    I think you're exaggerating a tiny bit on the time I don't think most people sat in the same group for that long and I think (no basis for this except memory long withered ^^) people spent around the same time in a difficult HC that they do in todays LFR. I definitely agree with you that its difficult creating “fun and engaging” casual content (for me its pvp).

    I think that if they did a daily on the plants vs zombie quest chain and if that was somewhat challenging it would be pretty awesome, why hasn't this been done yet blizzard!?

  18. #2338
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    I was trying to point out that challenge modes are by no means a face roll. Everyone must know exactly what they are doing. It is a fucking stupid statement to say if you do something fast then it wasn't challenging.
    By the time that you have developed your skills to the point where you're able to churn through the content that quickly, you're basically running on autopilot. At that point it is a faceroll. That's the problem with timed runs. I really had been hoping for content on par with Cataclsym dungeons with gear scaling added to it. "Challenge modes," as they were implemented, were a big disappointment to me. There's nothing appealing to me about rushing through content. Keep in mind that I was also responding to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It's annoying for anyone who needs to get a cast off to do anything, and just going at a fast pace in the first place simply isn't calm. Getting annoyed -> no longer relaxed or enjoyable.

    It can be challenging without a timer. Timer and gold medal just makes anyone who joins in want to rush and stress themselves, and the rest of the group out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    So someone cannot be a colleague and a friend? Also, just because something is difficult and requires coordination with multiple people it all of a sudden becomes work? Some people like their fun to be difficult, just because you don't doesnt mean their fun isn't valid.
    They can be, but keep in mind that you sometimes have to fire and/or abandon colleagues. The same is not true for friends.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  19. #2339
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    I'm sorry, but the cata HC's where the end-game for the casual community. The problem with creating content for casuals is that they say that they want difficult challenging content, but what most of them actually want is something that can be steamrolled and then bragged about.
    The problem with Cata heroics is that they challenged the weakest of the group whereas with Wrath the strongest players would be challenged and if they had good enough gear and skill they could carry a bad group through. In Cata it did not matter how well you played if one or more players could not rise to the challenge you were destined to wipe over and over.

  20. #2340
    I love to raid...i have a few characters I like to raid on...I mostly raid during the day while the kids are at school since when they get home I am not on the computer until they go to bed for the night and even then I would rather spend it with my fiance watching re-runs of the big bang theory LFR has let me raid without having to be in a guild that is so "like omg...you dont have your stuff enchanted or gemmed so we are replacing you" even though I am better geared than the person they want to replace me with and then complain they cannot down content, and then sometimes there are "cliques" within guilds and its hard to communicate and get with people so with MoP i just went casual and if i happen to get into a raid guild then i did. I wasnt worried maybe with the next xpac I will try 10mans again but for right now I like LFR without all the "your not uber enough to be in here" mode.

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