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  1. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    There just needs to be an alternative character advancement system for the less skilled players. From what I remember there simply weren't that many ways to get better gear in Cataclysm 4.0, other than the rather rough Heroic 5 mans.
    They solved that largely in mists by awarding valour through various means like daily questing. Problem is at the same time they did this they also butchered the valour vendors themselves.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #1002
    From going through a lot of these posts.. I don't understand why "casual-friendly" people want their character to feel progressed when they can't/don't want to raid. Unless they can give an example of what they want to see besides "I just want something exciting" isn't really going to help your cause. Is it to shave seconds off killing mobs while questing/farming/solo-ing old content?

  3. #1003
    Quote Originally Posted by Doylez View Post
    And that's exactly what more and more people are doing - play another game. It doesn't even have to be a singleplayer game, there are plenty of multiplayer games where you can just jump in and start playing whenever you want.
    So yeah, great solution as long as you don't mind that WoW subs keep falling.
    And that sort of game has been around long before WoW. The genre isn't about quick hit games, and never will be.
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  4. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    And that sort of game has been around long before WoW. The genre isn't about quick hit games, and never will be.
    and subsequently it's okay to lose millions of players just because the edicts of outmoded and outdated genre conventions (never set in stone either mind you) demand it's so. Do you really think people leaving for another game is a good solution to anything? Do you really think the game will remain unscathed? Here's a better question. Is it safe to say the changes you'd make to the game would be in the spirit of adhering closer to the genre staples and conventions? If this is true and the changes were implemented how long would it take before most of those changes we're reverted in the wake of mass subscriber exodus? Or do you think that regressing the game back in favor of arbitrary ideas about what mmos should be will encourage even more mass appeal?
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-11-03 at 10:56 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #1005
    Quote Originally Posted by hollafame View Post
    From going through a lot of these posts.. I don't understand why "casual-friendly" people want their character to feel progressed when they can't/don't want to raid. Unless they can give an example of what they want to see besides "I just want something exciting" isn't really going to help your cause. Is it to shave seconds off killing mobs while questing/farming/solo-ing old content?
    They want to progress their character so they can do more difficult casual friendly content. That should be obvious.

  6. #1006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    They want to progress their character so they can do more difficult casual friendly content. That should be obvious.
    But like they keep saying, they don't have anything to do, there's no casual oriented content. Why do they need to progress if they aren't doing anything?

    Note: playing devil's advocate here. I understand it's an RPG and character progression is a driving point. But my point stands.

  7. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-cleave View Post
    But like they keep saying, they don't have anything to do, there's no casual oriented content. Why do they need to progress if they aren't doing anything?

    Note: playing devil's advocate here. I understand it's an RPG and character progression is a driving point. But my point stands.
    I enjoy 5 man dungeons. I want them to mean something and be a viable form of, I guess, casual end game. I don't like raiding. It isn't fun for me. I want a reason to do 5 man dungeons and also decent enough rewards to feel like there is an actual point in doing them. MoP crapped on 5 mans. It's one of the many reasons I haven't subbed much this expansion. The content I want to do for my end game was relegated to leveling content. At max level there was little to no point in actually doing dungeons and I hate it. BC and the end of WotLK were some of my favorite times for 5 mans and I want it back.

  8. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrathonia View Post
    I enjoy 5 man dungeons. I want them to mean something and be a viable form of, I guess, casual end game. I don't like raiding. It isn't fun for me. I want a reason to do 5 man dungeons and also decent enough rewards to feel like there is an actual point in doing them. MoP crapped on 5 mans. It's one of the many reasons I haven't subbed much this expansion. The content I want to do for my end game was relegated to leveling content. At max level there was little to no point in actually doing dungeons and I hate it. BC and the end of WotLK were some of my favorite times for 5 mans and I want it back.
    Yep but you are screwed there because

    A) Random groups of people can't manage to work together without a flame war (Which is why LFR is so mind numbingly easy and yet people still choose to tunnel, ignore mechanics, and start flame wars and vote kick)

    B) If it takes more than a 6 minute faceroll people will complain it's too hard (See early Crapaclysm heroics)

    MoP crapped on 5 mans because once people got the gear level they stopped doing them so the devs found it to be a waste of resources and put in scenarios and heroics scenarios instead because they were fast and offered up some form of rewards not to mention challenge mode dungeons........yeah guess who well those are going.

    In short, blame the players not Blizzard, Blizzard just does what people want which I find to be STUPID because 3/4 of the time the players just bitch for the sake of bitching and don't even know wtf they want.
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  9. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post

    In short, blame the players not Blizzard, Blizzard just does what people want which I find to be STUPID because 3/4 of the time the players just bitch for the sake of bitching and don't even know wtf they want.
    Hardly. The decisions made by the developers are PURELY business and economics. The creation of LFR is almost entirely an economic decision aimed at streamlining content production in favour of raids by making the consumption of said content more wide spread. Players didn't ask for that. That decision in particular wasn't in the interests of players (or fun) in the slightest.

    They asked for dungeons not to be as hard. They did not ask them to stop being content that was produced, to have them award far less than they did before, and to be subjected to casual unfriendly LFR.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-11-03 at 11:46 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #1010
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Hardly. The decisions made by the developers are PURELY business and economics. The creation of LFR is almost entirely an economic decisions aimed at streamlining content production in favour of raids by making the consumption of said content more wide spread. Players didn't ask for that. That decision in particular wasn't in the interests of players (or fun) in the slightest.
    Well it was more aimed towards the large amount of player base that didn't have the time to put in for raiding and still wanted to see end game content, so it was both a economic and playerbased decision.
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  11. #1011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eren Yaeger View Post
    Well it was more aimed towards the large amount of player base that didn't have the time to put in for raiding and still wanted to see end game content, so it was both a economic and playerbased decision.
    LFR is not less time consuming. It's equally if not more time consuming especially relative to dungeons and other content in the game. It's aim was to subject more people to said content by removing some of the barriers to entry most specifically the scheduling and group requirements. They cannot do anything about the actual time requirements though as that basically is what a raid is.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #1012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    LFR is not less time consuming. It's equally if not more time consuming.
    Less time consuming as in "do it whenever you want" as opposed to "be here this day, this day, that one, and maybe that one to finish up if we don't the third day."

  13. #1013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    They want to progress their character so they can do more difficult casual friendly content. That should be obvious.
    seems like an argument going in a circle
    Casuals want better gear to be able to harder content? But they cant/suck too much to do harder content?
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  14. #1014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-cleave View Post
    Less time consuming as in "do it whenever you want" as opposed to "be here this day, this day, that one, and maybe that one to finish up if we don't the third day."
    Oh I understand what he meant. The scheduling requirement is removed from lfr yes. The actual time it takes to complete the content however is far more than in dungeons and probably even more than flex. Especially when you factor in the que time. Raiding in any form (including lfr) is not casual friendly. Casual friendly does not require 3 hour blocks. Casual friendly games are games with bite sized content.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #1015
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    and subsequently it's okay to lose millions of players just because the edicts of outmoded and outdated genre conventions (never set in stone either mind you) demand it's so. Do you really think people leaving for another game is a good solution to anything? Do you really think the game will remain unscathed? Here's a better question. Is it safe to say the changes you'd make to the game would be in the spirit of adhering closer to the genre staples and conventions? If this is true and the changes were implemented how long would it take before most of those changes we're reverted in the wake of mass subscriber exodus? Or do you think that regressing the game back in favor of arbitrary ideas about what mmos should be will encourage even more mass appeal?
    Clearly this progress away from the classical conventions has been nothing but successful for the MMO genre as a whole.
    The sort of casual-oriented gameplay we have in WoW today simply doesn't work with the time-investment tenets of the classic MMORPGs that made the genre attractive to begin with. This genre needs a brand new model if it is going to follow the casual trend in gaming and keep its attractive tenets.

  16. #1016
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    Im just curious as to what people want? "we want change but we have no idea what kind." 5 mans and scenarios can only get you so far before you need to invent more time to get the better rewards. there are world bosses that give good stuff but ultimately this is a raiding game and if you want some char progression gonna have to put your toe into a raid of some sort. :\
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    People doing below 200k dps? Ain't nobody got time for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    Why? Why should content be gated behind skill?
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  17. #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    . This genre needs a brand new model if it is going to follow the casual trend in gaming and keep its attractive tenets.
    I agree. As much as I'm reluctant to admit it likely a free to play model although I don't think the time investment aspect was appealing at all. I mean the most successful game was a success largely by moving away from that.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-11-04 at 12:09 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    flex? 10chars
    This ^^

    LFR (I agree it is pure shit), Flex, Normal, Heroic.

    Scenarios, HC scenarios.

    Timeless Isle.

    The Legendary Quest chain.

    World Bosses. Sha/Galleon/Nalak/Oondasta/Celestials/Ordos.

    PvP. Timeless Isle PvP.

    Of all of the above, the only thing that is not casual friendly is Heroic SoO. But many High Population servers, you can even pug HC SoO to a large extent.

    I remember a previous post from you, which as asking the removal of Flex/Normal/Heroic and reduce everything to LFR.

    Essentially you just really hate people who play more/better then you.
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  19. #1019
    LFR is for casuals along with normal. I was a 3-4 days a week in Wrath

  20. #1020
    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    They want to progress their character so they can do more difficult casual friendly content. That should be obvious.
    "Difficult friendly content." If you're suggesting that people want something quick and hard, this said person will be left unsatisfied because blizzard won't be able to produce that much content so quickly without pumping out patches every other week. If you want hard but is time consuming, then what is there besides raiding wether its LFR or Flex that can be pugged? Can you give some suggestions?

    The gearing concept has always been one of "do hard stuff for better rewards," but it seems like the cry has been "I need better rewards so I can actually do the hard stuff." This is the reason why good casuals are tied with the bad players which, for me personally I know, isn't always the case.

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