1. #1361
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Why force yourself into a situation that makes you unhappy? Yes it is constructive to quit things that make you unhappy. It tells the business that they no longer make your life more enjoyable. If they do change that is up to them and not up to the consumer. Ok genius then disprove the fact you can't please everyone. Disprove you can't be everything to everyone.
    Nobody is forcing themselves into a situation. I left the game when I wasn't happy and I leave feedback here and in other places. However telling folks to leave the game is not really workable design criteria for the developers. Nor does it really add anything constructive to the discussion. It's a dead end because well people do exactly that. Ultimately it's not up to them wether or not they change, it's up to the demands of the business and the market and all that crap. It's up to them HOW the game changes and how they respond to the market. I mean if they want to keep theirs jobs and making money and all that.

    Casuals are not everyone. They are a fairly large majority of the player base however they are not everyone so the question you threw back in my face isn't equivalent or relevant.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #1362
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    You really do like to come back with unfounded arguments. Just because their reaching out hasn't been good enough for you doesn't mean they aren't trying. The point I was making about raiders is that they enjoy raiding. What casuals like is so diverse. It's really hit or miss. Seems like more miss though with the comments in this thread. If the game is that bad then go find another one that gives you the experience that you want without you having to beg for it.
    I think there's a lot of truth in this.

    The casual playerbase is so diverse, no single content type is really going to cut it. Some players love Brawler's Guild, some hate it. Some players love scenarios, some hate them. Some players love daily quests, some hate them. Raiding is counted here, too. Ultimately, I think it's most compelling to look at the game and its growth prior to Mists where there has undoubtedly been the highest number of things to do. Clearly, it's not about cramming in as many content types as possible, and more about how deep the content is to players.

    This is where both heroic raiding and LFR have their problem. They're the outside edge in an extremely bloated raiding system that now has a needless four difficulty levels, which is endemic of a greater issue. Namely, Blizzard have tried to capture too many people in single types of content by using difficulty modes as a means to that end. The game doesn't need LFR and, honestly, it doesn't need a full heroic tier. Hard mode bosses, where it makes sense, are fine. The snag is that lesser skilled or new players are coming in on the ground floor of LFR and then looking up to see a huge number of bosses they're going to have to gear through a ridiculous four times.

    Is it any wonder they're saying "screw that"?

    Unfortunately, the rest of the game is simply losing all its depth. Talent trees have been gutted, professions have been fast-tracked, the five-man experience has been neutered, PvP is a complete mess and levelling is nothing but an un-enjoyable timesink. All the things that used to be good for more casual players have been put on the back burner so that raids can be made to suit the needs of only one group of people.

    For me, I've been looking at the PvP system of gearing and thinking that there's really something in that. Imagine all gear was currency-based, and said currency could be farmed in any content you like. Then, at a certain rating (clearing a full raid or finishing all of the challenge mode dungeons), higher item level rewards become available to you. In this way, you literally are gearing up by playing the game the way you want, but the best rewards are still reserved for those clearing raids.

    Personally, I love the visual effect of going into an arena match and seeing someone in their special rating colours. It has an immediate impact. I can't think of a real reason why it wouldn't work for PvE.

  3. #1363
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Well, I sort of agree, but they'd have to really up the ante on rolling out virtual realms.
    I think all of them will be rolled out before the next expansion, I mean with being able to join guilds and raid with the virtual realm it opens up the possibility, so why have all the cross realm crap? I mean that opens up more pugging and flex going on and if they bring out the things I listed holy shit! I think it could bring WoW back to its former glory.
    "Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel. He is the only one who inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it." - Mark Twain

  4. #1364
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The developers state casual engagement is low. The casual content may "exist" in the game but ask yourself how satisfied you would be if raiding or whatever hardcore activity you enjoy afforded you little to no character/power advancement and simple was. Nobody is in favour of taking gear out of raids but the casual activities don't award gear as well or as strong as in raids and casuals are expected to be happy with that. Now you say HOW ENTITLED..
    Oh so if you shower more gear under the premise of "solo" dungeon then all of a sudden the people that didn't have time in the first place will suddenly find all this time they didn't have in the first place to be fully immersed? Then once they reach that progress then they keep playing or quit because there is nothing rewarding for them to do?

  5. #1365
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The developers state casual engagement is low. The casual content may "exist" in the game but ask yourself how satisfied you would be if raiding or whatever hardcore activity you enjoy afforded you little to no character/power advancement and simple was. Nobody is in favour of taking gear out of raids but the casual activities don't award gear as well or as strong as in raids and casuals are expected to be happy with that. Now you say HOW ENTITLED..
    I'm confused.

    I thought LFR was casual gameplay and LFR offers all the gear.

    What more do casuals want? Gear on login?

    If anything, I believe the opposite is true. Gear is too easy to get, hence people get their gear and have no reason to play anymore. The easier to get gear for casuals, the less they will play. There were lot to do when character progression and gear ladder were slower and longer. Now it is too fast. Casuals experience content fast, get their gear fast and unsub til the next content patch.

  6. #1366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Oh so if you shower more gear under the premise of "solo" dungeon then all of a sudden the people that didn't have time in the first place will suddenly find all this time they didn't have in the first place to be fully immersed? Then once they reach that progress then they keep playing or quit because there is nothing rewarding for them to do?
    Seems to work for raiders doesn't it? Or do raiders quit once they find nothing more rewarding for them to do?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #1367
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    I think all of them will be rolled out before the next expansion, I mean with being able to join guilds and raid with the virtual realm it opens up the possibility, so why have all the cross realm crap? I mean that opens up more pugging and flex going on and if they bring out the things I listed holy shit! I think it could bring WoW back to its former glory.
    It'd sure be nice, that's for sure

  8. #1368
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    Quote Originally Posted by killidan View Post
    I'm confused.

    I thought LFR was casual gameplay and LFR offers all the gear.

    What more do casuals want? Gear on login?

    If anything, I believe the opposite is true. Gear is too easy to get, hence people get their gear and have no reason to play anymore. The easier to get gear for casuals, the less they will play. There were lot to do when character progression and gear ladder were slower and longer. Now it is too fast. Casuals experience content fast, get their gear fast and unsub til the next content patch.

    LFR is not casual friendly in the slightest. An hour in que to spend 2-3 hours completing a WING for little to no reward and being subjected to whatever douch baggery you find in the lfr group is not casual friendly. Hell flex is probably more casual friendly if you know the right people. I play Dota as a casual game. I hop on and am within the match in a couple minutes with some friends and usually the matches are just over 30 minutes long then I go and come back later or play another one if I so choose. I could also make the case that hardcores who clear the raid in the first month or two unsub till next content patch..

    It strikes me that pvp could be a good source for casual game play but it suffers from a number of problems primarily the developers lack of interest in developing it. They've made some good changes to it this expansion though.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-11-04 at 11:23 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #1369
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The developers state casual engagement is low. The casual content may "exist" in the game but ask yourself how satisfied you would be if raiding or whatever hardcore activity you enjoy afforded you little to no character/power advancement and simple was. Nobody is in favour of taking gear out of raids but the casual activities don't award gear as well or as strong as in raids and casuals are expected to be happy with that. Now you say HOW ENTITLED..
    If I knew I was trying to do nothing in return for rewards I don't deserve I would be ashamed....and I wouldn't be happy. fact is if you want advancement then do what it takes...if you can't or don't want to that is your fault and accept it

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    LFR is not casual friendly in the slightest. An hour in que to spend 2-3 hours completing a WING for little to no reward and being subjected to whatever douch baggery you find in the lfr group is not casual friendly. Hell flex is probably more casual friendly if you know the right people. I play Dota as a casual game. I hop on and am within the match in a couple minutes with some friends and usually the matches are just over 30 minutes long then I go and come back later or play another one if I so choose. I could also make the case that hardcores who clear the raid in the first month or two unsub till next content patch..

    It strikes me that pvp could be a good source for casual game play but it suffers from a number of problems primarily the developers lack of interest in developing it. They've made some good changes to it this expansion though.
    It is due to casuals that the q is so long. no one wants to group because they lack the ability to play at a decent level and don't care to get better

  10. #1370
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    Quote Originally Posted by blizzguy99 View Post
    If I knew I was trying to do nothing in return for rewards I don't deserve I would be ashamed....and I wouldn't be happy. fact is if you want advancement then do what it takes...if you can't or don't want to that is your fault and accept it
    This implies that some moral or ethical code is in effect and is shared universally among people playing the game. If people are not willing or able to do what it takes then they leave and nobody is at "fault" but the developers may ultimately wish to rethink what's required of players.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #1371
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Seems to work for raiders doesn't it? Or do raiders quit once they find nothing more rewarding for them to do?
    raiders aren't the ones bitching....we take what the game gives us and if we don't like it we leave.....we don't act like we deserve something more or different

  12. #1372
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Nobody is forcing themselves into a situation. I left the game when I wasn't happy and I leave feedback here and in other places. However telling folks to leave the game is not really workable design criteria for the developers. Nor does it really add anything constructive to the discussion. It's a dead end because well people do exactly that. Ultimately it's not up to them wether or not they change, it's up to the demands of the business and the market and all that crap. It's up to them HOW the game changes and how they respond to the market. I mean if they want to keep theirs jobs and making money and all that.

    Casuals are not everyone. They are a fairly large majority of the player base however they are not everyone so the question you threw back in my face isn't equivalent or relevant.
    Nice try with dodging my last question. I guess you do think Blizzard can make content that everyone will like and when I say everyone I mean everyone. Surely one person will not like it casual or not. I have friends that used to play wow but now they have children. They view wow as a giant waste of life and time now. They are much happier just going to work and coming home to spend time with their family before they go to sleep to do the same thing the next day. So I guess no matter what blizzard does they won't get those subs back.

  13. #1373
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    Quote Originally Posted by blizzguy99 View Post
    raiders aren't the ones bitching....we take what the game gives us and if we don't like it we leave.....we don't act like we deserve something more or different
    That's more or less exactly what casuals do although I'm positive both groups leave feedback on the way out. I'd be shocked if they didn't.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #1374
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It strikes me that pvp could be a good source for casual game play but it suffers from a number of problems primarily the developers lack of interest in developing it. They've made some good changes to it this expansion though.
    PvP is struggling with over-work. They've tried too much, too quickly, none of the systems got time to bed in and, underneath it all, the core gameplay is absolutely knackered. It's not inviting for new players because of gear discrepancies, one-shot macros and never-ending chains of control.

    When you toss the highest number of keybinds in the game's history on top of all that, it's actually very casual unfriendly IMHO.

  15. #1375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Nice try with dodging my last question. I guess you do think Blizzard can make content that everyone will like and when I say everyone I mean everyone. Surely one person will not like it casual or not. I have friends that used to play wow but now they have children. They view wow as a giant waste of life and time now. They are much happier just going to work and coming home to spend time with their family before they go to sleep to do the same thing the next day.
    It's not a dodge, it's just not a relevant question. Casuals are not everyone. Appealing to everyone is obviously absurd and not feasible however nobody is asking them to appeal to everyone. Casuals are also at the same not nobody, they represent a significant portion of the player base and it's income.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-11-04 at 11:43 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #1376
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    That's more or less exactly what casuals do although I'm positive both groups leave feedback on the way out. I'd be shocked if they didn't.
    no you disrespect everything they do and say its not enough. you don't give them any appreciation at all. I guarantee raiders appreciate blizzard more than you do ten fold even if they do quit. We acknowledge success and their effort. You bitch and complain and say they are worthless. If I was blizzard Id give you a big fuck you

  17. #1377
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Seems to work for raiders doesn't it? Or do raiders quit once they find nothing more rewarding for them to do?
    In vanilla, TBC, or WotLK I never ran out of content. It took months to progress and before I could finish one tier, next one came out with more bosses and more gear.

    In MOP, I did LFR and seen all content within two weeks of doing LFR, then I unsubbed. I was thinking of coming back next content patch, never did.

    I used to love hardcore raiding and I still have time to devote to it, but I won't do it because LFR gives me all content and gear and I just unsub once done.

  18. #1378
    Dreadlord I Knew It's Avatar
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    Everything in this game is fucking casual.

    The hardcore is long gone from this game, go play something else if this game doesnt tickle your balls instead of trying to change it to whatever you want because you cant dedicate ANY decent amount of time to the game and want everything on a silver platter.

  19. #1379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    PvP is struggling with over-work. They've tried too much, too quickly, none of the systems got time to bed in and, underneath it all, the core gameplay is absolutely knackered. It's not inviting for new players because of gear discrepancies, one-shot macros and never-ending chains of control.

    When you toss the highest number of keybinds in the game's history on top of all that, it's actually very casual unfriendly IMHO.
    Potentially it could be though. It's like the dota example I used. Log in with a couple of friends, relatively quick que times, relatively quick matches, no prolonged attachements you don't have to sit at your pc for 3 hours you can come and go within the match times. it's more bit sized. That's the hardest part about making casual content and pvp already has that.

    The rest of the stuff needed to fix pvp for casual is alot of work but I do think some of the changes made in 5.3 are for the better. Key binds is definitely an issue. Dota has depth of play but it's different it's not 30+ keybinds. Most heros have like 2. It's hard to explain. Dota is on the surface very simple but it has layers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by blizzguy99 View Post
    no you disrespect everything they do and say its not enough. you don't give them any appreciation at all. I guarantee raiders appreciate blizzard more than you do ten fold even if they do quit. We acknowledge success and their effort. You bitch and complain and say they are worthless. If I was blizzard Id give you a big fuck you
    I'm sorry if I've come across that way. I'm positive raiders (many) have said the same thing and in this case you can't catagorically state they haven't anyway. You can't make that guarantee since you don't A. Know how I "appreciate" blizzard (as if I had to or as if they cared if I did or not) or B. How raiders appreciate Blizzard on the whole. I"m sorry your argument is even on the face of it absurd.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #1380
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Knew It View Post
    The hardcore is long gone from this game, go play something else if this game doesnt tickle your balls instead of trying to change it to whatever you want
    Why? Trying to get them to change the game to my preferences would be highly beneficial for me, no reason for me to stop, very much reasons for me to keep on whining until they give what it is I'd enjoy most out of the game. Why does it bother you when other people get to do stuff they enjoy?
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