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  1. #1421
    Sounds like Wow isn't for you.

    You've moved on. We're happy for you.

    Meanwhile we'll just do out thing. LFR here, quest there, grind this grind that. Play AH. Play pets. Jam and chat with friends. Chase 'chieves and maybe that Workd Event. New expansion soon. Dig around the lore. Proving grounds or Brawlers for the kicks.

    Then there's PvP if any of that gets boring.

    Oh you're only into exciting PvE then go Flex, aspire, go Normal. Grab or make friends as you go and join OpenRaid for some new challenges. The point is, there's loads of things you can chase in Wow a great deal of which is raiding. It sounds like you're bored of that so really you're bored of WoW. Which is cool. Take a break. Come back later.

    Good luck!

  2. #1422
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    Yes, I want Brawler's Guild. The problem with current Brawler's Guild is that, first, I already did it, second, it is too small, and third, it does not reward gear and so it is not an alternate progression path. I don't get stronger the more bosses I defeat. If Brawler's bosses dropped epics and there were 5 times as many of them as there are now, I would be all set for this expansion (or patch - depending on the ilvl range of dropped epics).
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    They probably didn't add more bosses because it wasn't very popular. No point in creating content for a tiny minority of players, right?
    There are missing causes and effects here.

    If Brawler's Guild was an actual progression path (bosses dropped epics, etc) for casual players, it would have been much more popular than it is now.

  3. #1423
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    There are missing causes and effects here.

    If Brawler's Guild was an actual progression path (bosses dropped epics, etc) for casual players, it would have been much more popular than it is now.
    Same for pretty much any content really. Throw some gear behind it that isn't complete dog shit and people will do. That's the point though. If you did that then potentially people would stop raiding and stop running lfr because when their are clear alternatives that are equal or better guess what people will do? Those alternatives. That's exactly what happened in cataclysm. They made raids harder especially 10 man and they left the alternative in of farming dungeons for valour and buying gear with valour and guess what people did? Flash forward to mists and guess what rewarded system and yes content gets gutted in favour of lfr and raiding in general.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #1424
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    If Brawler's Guild was an actual progression path (bosses dropped epics, etc) for casual players, it would have been much more popular than it is now.
    One of two things would have happened: It would have become 'mandatory' and people complain about it or the gear wouldn't have been good enough and it wouldn't be that much different than now. This is how everything works.

  5. #1425
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Same for pretty much any content really. Throw some gear behind it that isn't complete dog shit and people will do. That's the point though. If you did that then potentially people would stop raiding and stop running lfr because when their are clear alternatives that are equal or better guess what people will do? Those alternatives. That's exactly what happened in cataclysm. They made raids harder especially 10 man and they left the alternative in of farming dungeons for valour and buying gear with valour and guess what people did? Flash forward to mists and guess what rewarded system and yes content gets gutted in favour of lfr and raiding in general.
    I think the trick would be making gear mutually exclusive. What if raiding gear had an extra stat on it that only did stuff in Raids? An extra stat from brawlers gear that improved you in brawls, etc.

    Might need multiple paper-dolls to hang the gear on to combat gear bloat, but it seems logical. Doing an activity well gets you gear that lets you do that activity better.

    Might fragment the player base a bit.

    Also, screw Hexos. I hate that guy.

  6. #1426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    I think the trick would be making gear mutually exclusive. What if raiding gear had an extra stat on it that only did stuff in Raids? An extra stat from brawlers gear that improved you in brawls, etc.
    I've seen that idea bandied about here and there and I think it has some merit but it's got some issues. Firstly if raid gear is for raiders and is available for raids where do i get the gear to raid in the first place? Or will initial raids not be tuned around having the +raid stat? What abuot catch up for that +raid gear?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #1427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    That's the point. Even heroic raiders would burn through their content in a few weeks, just like the casuals do. Blizzard literally cannot keep a player who plays dozens of hours a week entertained with fresh content for months on end. They need to make you repeat stuff weekly or just flat out not let you repeat certain content, ie raid lockouts.
    There are many different ways to make the journey longer, most of these ways are applicable to more types of content than just raids.

    Bosses drop items only once a week is one such way - this can be applied both to raids as well as to small group or solo content. You can't go to boss N unless you defeat boss N-1 - this can be applied both to raids as well as to small group or solo content, too. You get points for defeating bosses / completing encounters, and you use these points to buy gear, and there is a cap on how many of these points you can collect per week - same deal, applicable to most everything.

    In fact, there are ways to moderate the consumption of content that work better for small group or solo content than for raids. A boss only appears if you spend (burn, etc) some rare materials, which you have to find in the world - this works much better for solo (less so for small groups) than it does for raids, since the required time to farm materials can't be delegated to another person (provided the materials are BOP). There are multiple other examples of this, too.

    There are many things they could do to moderate the consumption rate.

    Having an alternate progression path for soloers or small groups does NOT mean everyone suddenly wears easy to get epics. In fact, nobody wants it (well, I don't, I want the content to last, my entire problem is that there is no content that lasts for a casual).
    Last edited by rda; 2013-11-05 at 08:23 AM.

  8. #1428
    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    I think the trick would be making gear mutually exclusive. What if raiding gear had an extra stat on it that only did stuff in Raids? An extra stat from brawlers gear that improved you in brawls, etc.

    Might need multiple paper-dolls to hang the gear on to combat gear bloat, but it seems logical. Doing an activity well gets you gear that lets you do that activity better.

    Might fragment the player base a bit.

    Also, screw Hexos. I hate that guy.
    I think they should the opposite and make all gear useable anywhere. Right now gear feels pointless. You get better items to do the same thing again faster and it becomes worthless when the next patch comes out so you cant even futureproof yourself? Yay! .. or not. If all gear was useable everywhere and specialized gear was only slightly better and a must for very professional high end raiding and PvP, it would produce an excellent carrot on the stick instead of just 20 more items levels so I can show off in front of the LFR crowd?

  9. #1429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizbeth View Post
    I think they should the opposite and make all gear useable anywhere. Right now gear feels pointless. You get better items to do the same thing again faster and it becomes worthless when the next patch comes out so you cant even futureproof yourself? Yay! .. or not. If all gear was useable everywhere and specialized gear was only slightly better and a must for very professional high end raiding and PvP, it would produce an excellent carrot on the stick instead of just 20 more items levels so I can show off in front of the LFR crowd?
    And make it acquirable from many more sources. I mean you guys laugh when I say fish for gear and I can see why you think it's absurd but the spirit behind the principle is that you should be able to have a sense of progression and character growth from all activities even if some don't reward you as much as others. Like fishing valour up or getting valour out of a crate let's say if valour was still worth a good god damn would be decent.

    It's about giving people options in the way they said daily quests awarding valour would be giving people options to running dungeons over and over again or the removal of the tabard gave people options. Their should be an option to running raids over and over and over again on 4 different difficulties. If it means people chose that option over raiding then that option works well I think.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-11-05 at 08:29 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #1430
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    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    That's not it at all. What people are saying is they want to be full "okay" geared (above LFR or even Flex?). Let's say that gearing takes a fixed amount of 300 hours to complete, people want to distribute that time the way they choose. Be it 1 hour here or there or a 15 hour marathon during the weekends. It doesn't have to be easy, hell it shouldn't be easy, but it should exist.
    Exactly. And it shouldn't be tied to raids, because ...but we talked about this already.

  11. #1431
    More casual friendly? To lose even more subs? Epics dropping everythere are already boring..start its from zero line..people target must be - increasing the numbers through skill level, not opposite..

  12. #1432
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I've seen that idea bandied about here and there and I think it has some merit but it's got some issues. Firstly if raid gear is for raiders and is available for raids where do i get the gear to raid in the first place? Or will initial raids not be tuned around having the +raid stat? What abuot catch up for that +raid gear?
    My idea would be something like this. Worlds stats work everywhere,. Special stats only work in their special places.

    First tier
    Ring of Average (world/scenario/crafting/dungeon drop)
    ilvl 463 World
    (stats here)

    Ring of Awesome (comes from raid drops)
    [RAID] <- fancy, eye catching border
    ilvl 463 World + ilvl 12 Raid
    (stats here)

    Ring of the Brawler

    [BRAWLER] <- different fancy border
    ilvl 463 World + ilvl 12 Brawling
    (stats here)

    Second Tier
    Ring of Above Average (Ring of Average + Valor Upgrade)
    ilvl 473 World
    (stats here)

    Ring of More Awesome
    (comes from raid drops)
    [RAID] <- fancy, eye catching border
    ilvl 473 World + ilvl 12 Raid
    (stats here)

    Ring of the Better Brawler
    [BRAWLER] <- different fancy border
    ilvl 473 World + ilvl 12 Brawling
    (stats here)

  13. #1433
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    I think the trick would be making gear mutually exclusive. What if raiding gear had an extra stat on it that only did stuff in Raids? An extra stat from brawlers gear that improved you in brawls, etc.
    I suggested something like this as well (new stat named PVE Power which increases healing and damage by a flat percentage, but only works in raids, similarly to how PVP Power only works in arenas and BGs, raid drops are the same ilvl as heroic instance drops, except raid drops have huge swaths of PVE Power, etc).

    This is something worth thinking about, I suppose. The largest con is that there appear more types of gear, and this might get unwieldy. But perhaps there are ways to solve *that* problem. Maybe bosses in raids, heroics or wherever should drop augments to gear, instead of gear, etc.

  14. #1434
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Maybe bosses in raids, heroics or wherever should drop augments to gear, instead of gear, etc.
    I think that's probably more realistic. Gems and enchants specifically for raiding that are only granted by raids. You can obviously still get the gear from the raids to but it needs to have less of a stranglehold.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #1435
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    And make it acquirable from many more sources. I mean you guys laugh when I say fish for gear and I can see why you think it's absurd but the spirit behind the principle is that you should be able to have a sense of progression and character growth from all activities even if some don't reward you as much as others. Like fishing valour up or getting valour out of a crate let's say if valour was still worth a good god damn would be decent.

    It's about giving people options in the way they said daily quests awarding valour would be giving people options to running dungeons over and over again or the removal of the tabard gave people options. Their should be an option to running raids over and over and over again on 4 different difficulties. If it means people chose that option over raiding then that option works well I think.
    Maybe, in a way that botting doesn't become the NR1 playstyle (as with your fishing idea)
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  16. #1436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    My idea would be something like this. Worlds stats work everywhere,. Special stats only work in their special places.

    First tier
    Ring of Average (world/scenario/crafting/dungeon drop)
    ilvl 463 World
    (stats here)

    Ring of Awesome (comes from raid drops)
    [RAID] <- fancy, eye catching border
    ilvl 463 World + ilvl 12 Raid
    (stats here)

    Ring of the Brawler

    [BRAWLER] <- different fancy border
    ilvl 463 World + ilvl 12 Brawling
    (stats here)

    Second Tier
    Ring of Above Average (Ring of Average + Valor Upgrade)
    ilvl 473 World
    (stats here)

    Ring of More Awesome
    (comes from raid drops)
    [RAID] <- fancy, eye catching border
    ilvl 473 World + ilvl 12 Raid
    (stats here)

    Ring of the Better Brawler
    [BRAWLER] <- different fancy border
    ilvl 473 World + ilvl 12 Brawling
    (stats here)
    The idea has alot of merit, specifically that it opens alot more options for progression. Now you can have raid and non raid progression. It has some downsides though. It is a bit cumbersome especially given the limited bag space. umm It makes gearing less transparent and less streamlined. It segregates the community even further.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #1437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyxanna View Post
    One of two things would have happened: It would have become 'mandatory' and people complain about it or the gear wouldn't have been good enough and it wouldn't be that much different than now. This is how everything works.
    If there are two progression paths of equal difficulty, one is solo or small-group and another is raids ("equal difficulty" here means taking into account screwups of one's teammates in raids, just to get this out of the way, so the solo content would potentially be more demanding to your individual performance), and people choose one of them, wouldn't that indicate that the one they choose is the one they actually want to do more?

    I know that it might be tempting to answer: they won't be able to do two progression paths of equal difficulty. But this is another question entirely.
    Last edited by rda; 2013-11-05 at 08:39 AM.

  18. #1438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tryana View Post
    Maybe, in a way that botting doesn't become the NR1 playstyle (as with your fishing idea)
    Admittedly botting would be an issue but I mean it's been an issue for alot of systems over the years (bgs for example) but the game still trucks on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I know that it might be tempting to answer: they won't be able to do two progression paths of equal difficulty. But this is another question entirely.
    They can also simple remove gearing from the game entirely and just make all options flat out equal. I don't thinkj that's a good idea mind you but it's certainly feasible. It would be a change akin to what they did with the talent system. Just grant people what they need to complete task y and then gear can be entirely cosmetic.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #1439
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    And make it acquirable from many more sources. I mean you guys laugh when I say fish for gear and I can see why you think it's absurd but the spirit behind the principle is that you should be able to have a sense of progression and character growth from all activities even if some don't reward you as much as others. Like fishing valour up or getting valour out of a crate let's say if valour was still worth a good god damn would be decent.

    It's about giving people options in the way they said daily quests awarding valour would be giving people options to running dungeons over and over again or the removal of the tabard gave people options. Their should be an option to running raids over and over and over again on 4 different difficulties. If it means people chose that option over raiding then that option works well I think.
    Exactly and it makes all activities and the gear more meaningful.

  20. #1440
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The idea has alot of merit, specifically that it opens alot more options for progression. Now you can have raid and non raid progression. It has some downsides though. It is a bit cumbersome especially given the limited bag space. umm It makes gearing less transparent and less streamlined. It segregates the community even further.
    Given how gear-focused WoW is, I'm not sure there is any solution other than to hope the positives outweigh the negatives.

    Another option would be to have stats "normalized" in non world/raid content (you get an invisible set of spec optimized gear) and have completely different equipment slots for that content.
    Last edited by Darmalus; 2013-11-05 at 08:48 AM.

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