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  1. #1581
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    Quote Originally Posted by blizzguy99 View Post
    why do none of you asking for heroic gear or raid gear alternatives answer the question about time and effort? Its an easy question.

    ---------------------------------
    so odina asked a very real question and I have read it twice with no replies from those arguing for other content. Would you be fine farming for 10 hours for a SHOT at 1 piece of gear and doing that for over a month once a week and possibly still not get it? I too have yet to get the trinket off siege crafter which my guild has killed every week since release. Its been almost 2 months...would you guys begging for gear grind the endless hours raiders do and accept the same percentage chance of drops....so basically in an average guild it would take more than 3 hours to reach siegecrafter. would you do this weekly...3 hours of effort and not get gear for 2 months and be ok with it?

    That is also just to get to him....now what about the effort to learn and kill him? you willing to put forth that amount of effort and time?
    I didn't answer this question because I wasn't on the forum. The answer is easy.

    Here you go:

    Yes, I would be fine with sometimes farming for the same piece of gear for over a month once a week and still not get it. That's just RNG. If the non-raiding progression path would be at least partly based on drops with some random chance, there will be both positive and negative RNG streaks. That's nothing new, we can live with that, or at least I can. That's something that is in the game in many places, so, no big surprises here.

  2. #1582
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    you know, the magic thing is people can use their guild of casual players (I mean if casuals are the majority of players there could be HUNDREDS of guilds with HUNDREDS of people in the guild) to do LFR or Flex, use trade also because heck, casuals are the majority right? Things are only difficult because people don't like the tools and options given to them because it takes EFFORT to use.
    And they do...guild LFR runs exist...guild Flex...trade chat flex...all happen. Are you trying to imply they don't? I'd guess if your server is low pop and not connected those things may be rarer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrandir View Post
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  3. #1583
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I am a fake... nice.

    Yes, I want a non-raiding progression path and I want all progression paths in the game to reward equal gear. There can be some variety as to what that means, however. We have discussed how raiding gear could be the same ilvl as non-raiding gear, but have an external stat like PVE Power which would only work in raids, for example. There are other possibilities, too.

    What's wrong with that?
    Same rewards for 2 totally different things, it's not sound and could have a negative aspect on all of the various things, LFR people could migrate over to x causing LFR to have 2-3 hrs queues or just disappear totally, it could make raiders gravitate somewhere else etc............it is cause and effect, something you haven't thought of but maybe Blizzard has.
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  4. #1584
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I am a fake... nice.

    Yes, I want a non-raiding progression path and I want all progression paths in the game to reward equal gear. There can be some variety as to what that means, however. We have discussed how raiding gear could be the same ilvl as non-raiding gear, but have an external stat like PVE Power which would only work in raids, for example. There are other possibilities, too.

    What's wrong with that?
    Personally I don't like it. It seems a complete cop out. Have the current system but ensure dungeons/non raiding progression content is at the same level as LFR and leave Flex Normal Heroic raiding items as they are.

  5. #1585
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Same rewards for 2 totally different things, it's not sound and could have a negative aspect on all of the various things, LFR people could migrate over to x causing LFR to have 2-3 hrs queues or just disappear totally, it could make raiders gravitate somewhere else etc............it is cause and effect, something you haven't thought of but maybe Blizzard has.
    Rewards of roughly equal power for things of roughly equal challenge. That's all.

  6. #1586
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    And they do...guild LFR runs exist...guild Flex...trade chat flex...all happen. Are you trying to imply they don't? I'd guess if your server is low pop and not connected those things may be rarer.
    I am not saying it doesn't but based on all the bitching about no time, queue times taking forever, having to download oqueue or join openraid.org you'd think it didn't!
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  7. #1587
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Personally I don't like it. It seems a complete cop out. Have the current system but ensure dungeons/non raiding progression content is at the same level as LFR and leave Flex Normal Heroic raiding items as they are.
    No, I disagree. This won't solve the problem. As long as raiding items have an edge over non-raiding items in areas OTHER than raids - and there are many such areas: soloing old raids for achievements / transmog / collectibles, Brawler's Guild, elites that drop things for alts, (lately also world PVP, ugh), etc - non-raiding progression will be inferior to raiding progression, and we will have the situation that we have now. That of raiding being the only recognized endgame and people grudgingly doing raids for loot, not because they enjoy them.

  8. #1588
    oqueu is the best axon this game has ever had....and not all the ilvl requirements are high I have seen numerous ilvl requirements at 525 for all wings. sure there are some higher but it is not the normal....typically the last wing i see 535 ilvl....and honestly if you aren't at 525 ilvl then you shouldn't be in SoO to begin with imo

  9. #1589
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Rewards of roughly equal power for things of roughly equal challenge. That's all.
    Then your system does not work. A non raiding progression path would not be as difficult as a raiding challenge unless you made super tightly tune group content thats really difficult to beat. Most casuals won't do it.

    Dungeons - LFR should reward at a roughly even level with dungeon loot being of a lower level but you can buy items from a valour vendor that is of the same level. Allow upgrades down the line for existing dungeons and dungeon tiers sets that start off at a higher than heroic dungeon level. That right there is a superior system to one where everyone gets the same gear but Normal Heroic etc get "PVE" power tacked on as a cop out for special snowflakes who want equal rewards for less intensive/time consuming content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    No, I disagree. This won't solve the problem. As long as raiding items have an edge over non-raiding items in areas OTHER than raids - and there are many such areas: soloing old raids for achievements / transmog / collectibles, Brawler's Guild, elites that drop things for alts, (lately also world PVP, ugh), etc - non-raiding progression will be inferior to raiding progression, and we will have the situation that we have now. That of raiding being the only recognized endgame and people grudgingly doing raids for loot, not because they enjoy them.
    Er no. Dungeons can have a valor vendor where you can buy items (similar to wrath/cata) thats of LFR in value. LFR is raiding. Normal raiding/Heroic raiding are for organised and focused groups who do the most difficult content. They should stay as they are. Have non raid progression drop items or earn items of LFR value and have that as the base line level raid gear. The organised modes require more out of you but these other systems provide catch up. LFR retains its RNG element where as dungeons you can get an item at least once per week of raid level (you can tune it up or down to make it in line with LFR as an alternative). That there is a superior system to the one you wanted.

  10. #1590
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    No, I disagree. This won't solve the problem. As long as raiding items have an edge over non-raiding items in areas OTHER than raids - and there are many such areas: soloing old raids for achievements / transmog / collectibles, Brawler's Guild, elites that drop things for alts, (lately also world PVP, ugh), etc - non-raiding progression will be inferior to raiding progression, and we will have the situation that we have now. That of raiding being the only recognized endgame and people grudgingly doing raids for loot, not because they enjoy them.
    name one old school raid that requires SoO raid gear to solo....brawlers guild is easily over geared in ToT gear....I have a cpl in guild who solo heroic dungeons from MoP in ToT gear lol. So SoO raid level gear is not needed for anything you have stated

  11. #1591
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Same rewards for 2 totally different things, it's not sound and could have a negative aspect on all of the various things, LFR people could migrate over to x causing LFR to have 2-3 hrs queues or just disappear totally, it could make raiders gravitate somewhere else etc............it is cause and effect, something you haven't thought of but maybe Blizzard has.
    On the contrary, it would remove the people who don't want to be there, leaving those who do want to be there and should make it a more pleasant place to be. Toxic behaviour in LFR or any other part of the game stems from bordom, which stems from the lack of alternative.

  12. #1592
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    Keep flex but remove the cross realm crap
    Remove all cross realm crap
    Finish the virtual servers which makes servers more populated
    Rely on guilds and community
    Keep the ilvl for Flex, Normal, Heroic
    Challenging 5 mans ala TBC that end bosses drop random epics with lower ivl than Flex
    Player Housing
    Superior crafting
    Less class homogenization

    WoW becomes awesome.
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  13. #1593
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    I am not saying it doesn't but based on all the bitching about no time, queue times taking forever, having to download oqueue or join openraid.org you'd think it didn't!
    Gotcha...was a little confused =P
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrandir View Post
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  14. #1594
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    The only reason raider content lasts longer is because its difficult and repetitive. Blizzard tried to give "casuals" difficult and repetitive content in Cataclysm and they mostly didn't like it.
    You bring up a good point, and this is where I think Blizzard's problem lies. Their focus is no longer on creating a fun game; it's on keeping players busy long enough for them to put out the next batch of content. They stated that their focus is on raids because no other type of content occupies players for as long. I wish they would get away from that mentality of trying to keep people busy and go back to that mentality of making the game fun. I have plenty of stuff to keep my busy in real life. I don't need a game that's going to serve as a mere occupation. Difficult doesn't bother me, but I hate repetitive. That's why raiding is not fun for me, whether it's LFR, Flexible, Normal, or Heroic. At first you're repeatedly bashing your head against the same boss until you master him. When that phase is done then you're repeatedly clearing the same 4-16 bosses every single week. Both cases are repetitive. That's why raiding is not fun for me.

    Dungeons in WotLK were more fun because with I could queue for an instance every day and see any given instance maybe two or three times a month. That hasn't happened since. Now I'm guaranteed to see the same instances over and over when I queue for them. That, and you can pretty much solo the MoP instances. People say "do Challenge Modes," but the idea of a speed run doesn't sound fun. Again, I want a fun game, not an occupation.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  15. #1595
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Then your system does not work. A non raiding progression path would not be as difficult as a raiding challenge unless you made super tightly tune group content thats really difficult to beat. Most casuals won't do it.
    I don't know where you get this from. I believe they can provide a small group or solo content that would be of equal difficulty as normal and heroic raids. If they line up that content in steps of increasing difficulty, I don't see why small groups or soloers wouldn't be interested in doing it.

  16. #1596
    Quote Originally Posted by blizzguy99 View Post
    oqueu is the best axon this game has ever had....and not all the ilvl requirements are high I have seen numerous ilvl requirements at 525 for all wings. sure there are some higher but it is not the normal....typically the last wing i see 535 ilvl....and honestly if you aren't at 525 ilvl then you shouldn't be in SoO to begin with imo
    I tanked Flex at 514 ilvl with a pretty random pug. It was fine.

  17. #1597
    Quote Originally Posted by topcatti View Post
    Why cant casuals raid normal, or even heroic? Really tell me. Play the game for 3 hours, 2 or 3 times a week? jesus
    Raid schedules aside, I feel many people don't want to be accountable for their performance in a guild setting. To raid normal or heroic, you've gotta be in a guild (like 99.98% of the time). These people, while open to the idea of a guild (never being alone, people to help with small objectives, etc), might feel like they don't want to pull their weight when it comes to guild raiding. They don't want the criticism for being low dps, they don't want to be the guy everyone hates because he constantly stands in bad stuff all day. LFR is appealing because there's no responsibility to a group of people that you might care about. In LFR, if you get kicked from the group, so what... queue back up for another LFR the next day or something. But in a guild setting, if you show consistent poor performances in raids, then the guild could just remove your entirely -- so you're back to square one with LFR only.

    LFR is attractive because it's zero responsibility. There's no long-standing consequence to LFR because whether you finish the raid or not, you'll likely never deal with the people in that group again. And not that I condone this type of attitude, but -- com'n -- we can't be blind to it.

  18. #1598
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I don't know where you get this from. I believe they can provide a small group or solo content that would be of equal difficulty as normal and heroic raids. If they line up that content in steps of increasing difficulty, I don't see why small groups or soloers wouldn't be interested in it.
    Blizzard them selves state most casuals or most players when presented with a challenge QUIT.

    That means a tiny minority would take up said challenge. Thats why your system would not work. You would put heroic level loot on a small team content and only a tiny % would do or complete it. That is not what a majority of the player base would complete. Sure they can make it but how many people would run it compared to Say LFR or dungeons? a Tiny amount.

  19. #1599
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarthan View Post
    This thread:
    "I am a casual and I want to be full heroic epic geared even though I play 1 hour a week." Just because casuals pay the same amount doesn't entitle you to everything in the game. Go out and get it. Stop creating I want this threads. Thanks
    Name one post where a casual demanded full heroic epics. There's a difference between demanding a steady increase in power and demanding the very best gear in the game. This statement indicates that you don't understand that difference yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  20. #1600
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    Quote Originally Posted by blizzguy99 View Post
    name one old school raid that requires SoO raid gear to solo....brawlers guild is easily over geared in ToT gear....I have a cpl in guild who solo heroic dungeons from MoP in ToT gear lol. So SoO raid level gear is not needed for anything you have stated
    Many ICC achievements and 25 HM LK itself are greatly helped by SoO / ToT heroic gear. Not to say anything about Cata raids and select encounters in entry level MOP raids.

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