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  1. #1

    Implications of no reforge in WoD

    Does the lack of reforge in WoD mean that you're gonna be encouraged to change specs between bosses less often?
    Assuming you got 2 dps specs: if spec A state priority is haste, and spec B state priority is critical chance, then if the gear you currently have has much more haste than crit, you'll significantly perform better in Spec A, even though Spec B would be better in some bosses.

    If the specs aren't too far apart in terms of numbers, then due your itemization (like gear being around 1 stat), then they won't differ much in terms of results in bosses, which would make the player opt for the same spec the entire raid, right?

    PS: or it could also mean people will keep needing gear during the whole patch just to be able to min-max each dps spec (like hybrids used to do for different roles). Thankfully you don't compete for individual loot in flex/lfr I guess, otherwise it would be chaos lol.

  2. #2
    High Overlord -Azax-'s Avatar
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    you know, i kinda looked at this and thought, what the heck is this guy on about?

    You wanna know the implication of no reforging? gear will be like how it was in vanilla, tbc, and wrath.


    Boom.

  3. #3
    I for one enjoy this, since now when a piece of Plate gear drops with Haste on it it will go to my DK or Paladin and the whinging warrior in my guild won't just cry and bitch and moan about how he can reforge the Haste to Crit so why can't he have it even though it is sub-par.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seriss View Post
    How about we wait till we're actually playing it before we go into estimating the amount of content in comparison to expansion x and how little it is and how bad it is and how feature y doesn't count because some people don't care about it and those people that like it don't count because they don't matter for some obscure reason?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by zoth00 View Post
    Does the lack of reforge in WoD mean that you're gonna be encouraged to change specs between bosses less often?
    Assuming you got 2 dps specs: if spec A state priority is haste, and spec B state priority is critical chance, then if the gear you currently have has much more haste than crit, you'll significantly perform better in Spec A, even though Spec B would be better in some bosses.

    If the specs aren't too far apart in terms of numbers, then due your itemization (like gear being around 1 stat), then they won't differ much in terms of results in bosses, which would make the player opt for the same spec the entire raid, right?

    PS: or it could also mean people will keep needing gear during the whole patch just to be able to min-max each dps spec (like hybrids used to do for different roles). Thankfully you don't compete for individual loot in flex/lfr I guess, otherwise it would be chaos lol.
    The publicly stated goal of the main stat switch, reduced enchant/gem frequency, spirit only on non-main items, and the tertiary stat / gem socket random bonus features is to make you perform "reasonably" in your other spec without regearing, but to have to hunt up different items to perform optimally.

    That is: the developers have said they want, and built systems that suggest they way, a *larger* difference between the average and BiS performance, coupled with BiS being harder to get, and tuning that makes it possible to be, eg, an off-healer successfully at an average level. Not great, not full-time main healer in a group pushing progression, but solid. Playable. Viable, that often repeated mantra.

    So, the last. Not only do you always need gear, even when you have full warforged heroic gear, you still want to upgrade it with a piece that randomly adds a gem socket, and the ideal tertiary stat for your play style and performance. The "long tail" of gearing, where things get sharded less often, is desired.

    Again, from public statements, "the existence of best in slot lists is fine, the idea that they are achievable is not". They want to keep you moving up, up, up, gradually, and so on.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Azax24 View Post
    you know, i kinda looked at this and thought, what the heck is this guy on about?

    You wanna know the implication of no reforging? gear will be like how it was in vanilla, tbc, and wrath.


    Boom.
    This is the simplest answer. It's been like this before and we've lived it. It was relatively fine.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Paula Deen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    This is the simplest answer. It's been like this before and we've lived it. It was relatively fine.
    I agree, but I can see why some people are worried. The fear is that Blizzard will keep itemizing gear like shit like they did throughout MoP and then remove reforging basically making some specs useless (Ele with Crit on all gear anyone?) I HIGHLY doubt Blizzard is that dumb though, so I will assume it will be like it was up to Cata, which will be a nice change.
    "Times Change"

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by MCBGamer View Post
    I agree, but I can see why some people are worried. The fear is that Blizzard will keep itemizing gear like shit like they did throughout MoP and then remove reforging basically making some specs useless (Ele with Crit on all gear anyone?) I HIGHLY doubt Blizzard is that dumb though, so I will assume it will be like it was up to Cata, which will be a nice change.
    If you think that itemization was good before reforging was in the game you are crazy. Itemization has been terrible since 2004 and it never changed. They just added a way for us to fix it a little bit.

    Now if you add the fact that they think warforged and thunderforged items were a good idea, that sockets as an extra "rare" stat and that things like movement speed and cleave will have a chance to be on certain items, you should easily be able to see why some people are worried.
    Last edited by Glasse; 2014-01-18 at 07:30 PM.

  8. #8
    Pandaren Monk Archimand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCBGamer View Post
    I agree, but I can see why some people are worried. The fear is that Blizzard will keep itemizing gear like shit like they did throughout MoP and then remove reforging basically making some specs useless (Ele with Crit on all gear anyone?) I HIGHLY doubt Blizzard is that dumb though, so I will assume it will be like it was up to Cata, which will be a nice change.
    there will be no more "ele gear with crit" as you called it

    it will be mail armor and all mail users will wear it. hunters will get agility,shamans will get int. so you will have items with crit,haste,mastery,new stats.so it will be fine.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by MCBGamer View Post
    I agree, but I can see why some people are worried. The fear is that Blizzard will keep itemizing gear like shit like they did throughout MoP and then remove reforging basically making some specs useless (Ele with Crit on all gear anyone?) I HIGHLY doubt Blizzard is that dumb though, so I will assume it will be like it was up to Cata, which will be a nice change.
    Never assume anything.

  10. #10
    Without crappy mechanics like DoT snapshotting or reforging, there will no longer be people boasting about being skillful while having their gameplay based on addons and sites like mr robot.

  11. #11
    Personally I'm looking forward to it a lot. I really do miss the days where getting a new piece of gear didn't mean I had to gem it, enchant it, reforge all of my gear to break haste thresholds, and then transmog it if I still want to look good.

    Hopefully Blizzard doesn't mess up itemization though. I'd hate to have a tier where the only weapons for my warrior are haste two-handers. Maybe they'll start designing weapons with specific classes in mind in terms of stats?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by MCBGamer View Post
    I agree, but I can see why some people are worried. The fear is that Blizzard will keep itemizing gear like shit like they did throughout MoP and then remove reforging basically making some specs useless (Ele with Crit on all gear anyone?) I HIGHLY doubt Blizzard is that dumb though, so I will assume it will be like it was up to Cata, which will be a nice change.
    its not about being dumb, its about hating shamans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danman64 View Post
    Personally I'm looking forward to it a lot. I really do miss the days where getting a new piece of gear didn't mean I had to gem it, enchant it, reforge all of my gear to break haste thresholds, and then transmog it if I still want to look good.

    Hopefully Blizzard doesn't mess up itemization though. I'd hate to have a tier where the only weapons for my warrior are haste two-handers. Maybe they'll start designing weapons with specific classes in mind in terms of stats?
    Haste for warrior isn't bad.
    Try crit for ele shaman...
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Azax24 View Post
    you know, i kinda looked at this and thought, what the heck is this guy on about?

    You wanna know the implication of no reforging? gear will be like how it was in vanilla, tbc, and wrath.


    Boom.
    Problem there is you just had crit and haste once hit capped in most of those, wod will have crit, haste, mastery, Amplify, readiness, Multi-strike. I left tank and healer stats out of both only listed things that apply to everyone.

    If wod was just going to be crit, haste, mastery no reforge would have been fine which is what they acted like it was going to be at blizzcon but wasn't the case.


    One thing I am wondering is what they are going to do to make people want crit at all. From what we've been told so far agi and int no longer give crit which means everyone will have low crit and crits will only be 150%. Why would any class want that right now theres only a few specs that even like crit over haste or mastery and this will lower its value and now crit also has to compete against Amplify, readiness, Multi-strike too.
    Last edited by wow; 2014-01-18 at 08:42 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post
    Haste for warrior isn't bad.
    Try crit for ele shaman...
    I ran a crit ele at launch and did pretty damn well for a while. Remember, they have 250% crit damage and Fulmination crits were a thing of beauty. Thing is, when ToT was out that strategy tanked as high mastery and haste coupled with Ascendance just kind of... yeah no reason to bother with crit anymore.
    Praise the Quest Writers for they give life to otherwise boring expansions.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by zoth00 View Post
    Does the lack of reforge in WoD mean that you're gonna be encouraged to change specs between bosses less often?
    Assuming you got 2 dps specs: if spec A state priority is haste, and spec B state priority is critical chance, then if the gear you currently have has much more haste than crit, you'll significantly perform better in Spec A, even though Spec B would be better in some bosses.

    If the specs aren't too far apart in terms of numbers, then due your itemization (like gear being around 1 stat), then they won't differ much in terms of results in bosses, which would make the player opt for the same spec the entire raid, right?

    PS: or it could also mean people will keep needing gear during the whole patch just to be able to min-max each dps spec (like hybrids used to do for different roles). Thankfully you don't compete for individual loot in flex/lfr I guess, otherwise it would be chaos lol.
    Since they are removing haste breakpoints for dots, adding dynamic dots. The loss of reforging will make gear optimal for every spec, however, certain values obviously will work better, but won't make such a huge difference like they do now. Might be different for melee, but since gear will always have either crit, haste or mastery (and 2 of them at least, unless the odd one stat bracers like in tot and bot). Will mean that you can't go too wrong with non optimal stats, granting you have enough of all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post
    its not about being dumb, its about hating shamans.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Haste for warrior isn't bad.
    Try crit for ele shaman...
    Yeah because the stat values might not change next expansion right? They probably will.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCBGamer View Post
    I agree, but I can see why some people are worried. The fear is that Blizzard will keep itemizing gear like shit like they did throughout MoP and then remove reforging basically making some specs useless (Ele with Crit on all gear anyone?) I HIGHLY doubt Blizzard is that dumb though, so I will assume it will be like it was up to Cata, which will be a nice change.
    They said gear will change with spec, so I assume it'll work if you go from Enh to Ele, just like it would if you went from Shadow to Holy.

  17. #17
    For dps the removal of reforging won't really matter that much if they do a decent job of balancing secondaries (there are already quite a few specs on live like this)

    I know for a fact our healers try different things when progressing on different bosses, our resto shaman was kicking ass by going mostly crit then when we were doing thok he stacked a bit more haste so he could get the extra tick on his healing rain and get more riptides off between interrupts, I think it will actually make the game less interesting for healers will have to see how it pans out.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by yeryerdude View Post
    I know for a fact our healers try different things when progressing on different bosses, our resto shaman was kicking ass by going mostly crit then when we were doing thok he stacked a bit more haste so he could get the extra tick on his healing rain and get more riptides off between interrupts, I think it will actually make the game less interesting for healers will have to see how it pans out.
    Keep in mind, they also removed extending DoTs/HoTs with haste. So while it'll get extra ticks, it'll still be stuck in the same time frame.
    Praise the Quest Writers for they give life to otherwise boring expansions.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by zoth00 View Post
    Does the lack of reforge in WoD mean that you're gonna be encouraged to change specs between bosses less often?
    Assuming you got 2 dps specs: if spec A state priority is haste, and spec B state priority is critical chance, then if the gear you currently have has much more haste than crit, you'll significantly perform better in Spec A, even though Spec B would be better in some bosses.

    If the specs aren't too far apart in terms of numbers, then due your itemization (like gear being around 1 stat), then they won't differ much in terms of results in bosses, which would make the player opt for the same spec the entire raid, right?

    PS: or it could also mean people will keep needing gear during the whole patch just to be able to min-max each dps spec (like hybrids used to do for different roles). Thankfully you don't compete for individual loot in flex/lfr I guess, otherwise it would be chaos lol.
    Or maybe they gonna nerf haste/mastery/crit very hard leaving top notch optimization to the much rarer warforged/socket/tertiary stat item.
    How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

  20. #20
    The Lightbringer Paula Deen's Avatar
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    This is going to be a long post, be ready.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glasse View Post
    If you think that itemization was good before reforging was in the game you are crazy. Itemization has been terrible since 2004 and it never changed. They just added a way for us to fix it a little bit.
    While for the most part true, I never really remember during Sunwell bitching about useless stats on my gear, then again this may just be a case of "there was no bitching because we didn't know any better." So you may or may not be right here. I am kind of tired and not going to bother looking through old gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimand View Post
    there will be no more "ele gear with crit" as you called it

    it will be mail armor and all mail users will wear it. hunters will get agility,shamans will get int. so you will have items with crit,haste,mastery,new stats.so it will be fine.
    Wrong, the tier gear is the only thing working in the manner you are speaking. Everything else is still the same as it is now, unless they have said something different since Blizzcon.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post
    its not about being dumb, its about hating shamans.

    Try crit for ele shaman...
    Elemental was the spec I chose to list because I know it well, with my main being Elemental, however, that doesn't mean other classes do not have shitty stats just like Elemental. Another thing, Blizzard does't hate Elemental, I think they have been great to us throughout most of Pandaria, I will admit we are a tad bit under powered but in my eyes that's the price we pay for 4 key rotations.
    "Times Change"

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