1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I feel like Captain Obvious when making this thread, but the game right now? It's shit. Not just normal shit, but pure shite.

    LFR? There's no fun in LFR. You run through it once to see the content... and next week you cancel your subscription again until the next raidpatch. In fact I didn't even bother doing LFR either for the last patch, since I already know it's just going to be a huge timedrain of mashing my DPS buttons on an easy boss that takes too long to drop dead.

    Timeless Isle, Proving Grounds, Brawler's Guild? Irrelevant content. I might be a casual, but that doesn't mean that I want to do challenging content that doesn't reward anything. I still like to feel my character growing stronger and earning rewards for the challenges that are offered to me.

    If Blizzard doesn't manage to add an endgame to the next expansion which offers the same excitement and rewards as normal or heroic raiding, but for casual players, who just want to play when they feel like it, then this will be the expansion that will cause the entire ship to sink.
    ROFLMAO - you sound more like a cryin child - the game is fine - dont like it? stop playing!
    "Timeless Isle, Proving Grounds, Brawler's Guild?" dont offer Rewards? so why do u even bother with the game if titles, archivements, pets & mounts are not rewards for you?
    Its great that you claim how the last tier lfr is without ever seeing it! grow up! thats like sayin you dont like movie xyz cause your boyfriend didnt liked it.

  2. #302
    Here is the problem with WoW's current " casual end game ", its pretty much all solo, all easy, and just plain bland. The problem is people read things and come into the with preconceived notions. You see a demand for more casual end game and automatically assume they want the same gear as a heroic raider in 15 minutes. That is not what most of what the casual crowd is after, what they are after often times is meaningful progression that doesn't always involve some form of raiding.

    I know its mind blowing, but there was a time this exact thing did exist in WoW, pretty much up until WotLK, although it still had a touch of it. People have been asking for examples so I'm going to do my best too show where the whole casual experience went wrong, and believe it or not I'm not even sure its anyone's fault except Blizzards for just completely not understanding.

    #1 - Probably the single best example of meaningful casual progression without scheduled raiding is the old Tier .5 quest from Vanilla. Yeah believe it or not the best example of meaningful casual content actually came from the earliest incarnation of the game. It was a very long quest chain than required multi player interaction through instances, it had fights that were unique within those instances, it was challenging ( 45 minute Baron run and the first NPC PvP fight in BRD), and it rewarded meaningful gear. Was it the best gear that would rival a Naxx 40 player? No, but it was still decent, was a complete set ( even had set bonuses) and gave you something to work for without just handing it to you and I never heard anyone bitch about it, casual or hardcore.

    #2 TBC Heroics/Badges/Rep Grinds/Dailies - Now you might ask just what is so special about those, they are some of the most hated things there is today. You know you are right, but thats because they have had all of the soul stripped out of them and watered down to the point they aren't even remotely enjoyable. Every single one of those had a multiplayer component, offered meaningful upgrades, and weren't just cake walks. Was it the best gear available? No, but out in the world it made you feel more powerful, and thats what really matters.

    #3 The old summonable bosses in Silithus - Sure I know the gear wasn't top notch raiding gear, but for most casuals it was still useful, still an upgrade, still required groups and was still a challenge.

    Now there is a group of casuals that do enjoy raiding, and they don't mind it on a semi schedule, I should know because I am in this group. I ran everything from MC, BWL, and AQ20 up until this newest raid in some form or fashion when the content was still somewhat relevant. There is a place for casual raid content as well as hardcore, however there is still a need for good old fashioned challenging content that doesn't require raiding.

    At some point over the course of the game, casual content became to mean easy, solo, joyless, and just not a ton of fun. I think Blizzard at some point made the mistake of trying to group every single casual together and thought they all wanted the same thing. Its kind of sad to think, but the harder Blizzard has tried to make better "casual" content the worse they have gotten at it. Sure there will always be that group that wants it easy as pie with top notch gear on a silver platter, but that is not the vast majority of the casual players, and it certainly isn't what constitutes meaningful progression.

    Edit: I'd also like to add, that while Blizzard has added more " stuff" to do outside of Raiding than ever before, it all has the same problems. Its mostly solo, requires no community interaction and offers no real meaningful progression because that last part has all been shoved into LFR
    Last edited by Armourboy; 2013-11-02 at 01:46 PM.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by fjeenzy View Post
    In a trolling sense I've always imagined. Im minus 10 shortseighted so you aren't too far away from the truth.

    My point being, if you're educated at such a high level, surely you've realized human life is not to be valued with those kinds of terms.
    Oh well that wasn't intended.
    People simply like their stereotypes. I mean for instance my guild is pretty diverse career wise - from the unemployed uneducated guy having a rich dad to the ones with the several degrees and well payed positions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Catharsius View Post
    Since when? There's more than a handful guilds that clear full heroic on a 2-3 day raiding schedule - and you have 4-5 days each week when you dont have to focus on the game so stop being bad at the game and come up with pisspoor excuses about how hardcore you need to be to kill heroic bosses..
    I am aware of that but it simply doesn't matter since it isn't enough to change the general perspective of people which often is still stuck in the mindset that the only chance of getting content done is quitting your job and playing 12 hours a day.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Himora View Post
    Off to dinner with my fiance, if i had a raid tonight id be kicked from the guild /lolsomuchdesignflawdinnerwithfianceordoendgamechoosenow
    ta ta
    Yeah, if you committed to a guild that expects high attendance and scheduled your dinner for the same time as a raid. But those are just your personal failures and have nothing to do with game design.

  5. #305
    Moderator Shamanic's Avatar
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    A lot of people throwing insults around in this thread, please remember that's against the rules, including trying to belittle or insult someone elses intelligence. Let's keep the discussion civil without resorting to personal attacks.
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  6. #306
    Funny. The answer to this problem is so obvious and nobody seems to see it.

    DUNGEONS. Remember TBC? Classic? What did we do when we didn't Raid? We went and did DUNGEONS. Because they were fun. Because the Items there weren't just a stepping stone to Epics. Because we knew it'd be worth our time to do them.

    If we get the Stats reset in the next Expansion, it'd be the next logical step to also restore the value of the old items. The Classic/TBC values. Not Wrath. Where you'd be happy to have a Blue D1(T0)/D3 Set. Where Epics were only a small, marginal upgrade with mostly the value of owning them.


    Also bringing back Class Quests like back in Classic would be smart. Add new epicly long quest chains to do at 90. Things that keep people busy and interested. This focus on Raid Endgame has hurt the game more then anything else.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Himora View Post
    Off to dinner with my fiance, if i had a raid tonight id be kicked from the guild /lolsomuchdesignflawdinnerwithfianceordoendgamechoosenow
    ta ta
    Pick a better guild.

    ta ta.
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  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Freaky Fred View Post
    Level scaling. This would bring back tons of content. Just think of all the old raids and dungeons. Maybe even a new feature like a new ethereal dude in the transmog and void storage team that would bring an old raid item to a certain item level, 1000g per item for example.
    yeah right everyone wants to be forced to grp up to kill tk for the mount....

  9. #309
    If you don't find the mountain of content aimed at casuals to be fun, then WoW isn't for you. I'm serious. They've bent over backwards for casuals so if you don't find the absurd amount of content fun, then this just isn't the game for you and you should move on.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
    Here is the problem with WoW's current " casual end game ", its pretty much all solo, all easy, and just plain bland. The problem is people read things and come into the with preconceived notions. You see a demand for more casual end game and automatically assume they want the same gear as a heroic raider in 15 minutes. That is not what most of what the casual crowd is after, what they are after often times is meaningful progression that doesn't always involve some form of raiding.

    I know its mind blowing, but there was a time this exact thing did exist in WoW, pretty much up until WotLK, although it still had a touch of it. People have been asking for examples so I'm going to do my best too show where the whole casual experience went wrong, and believe it or not I'm not even sure its anyone's fault except Blizzards for just completely not understanding.

    #1 - Probably the single best example of meaningful casual progression without scheduled raiding is the old Tier .5 quest from Vanilla. Yeah believe it or not the best example of meaningful casual content actually came from the earliest incarnation of the game. It was a very long quest chain than required multi player interaction through instances, it had fights that were unique within those instances, it was challenging ( 45 minute Baron run and the first NPC PvP fight in BRD), and it rewarded meaningful gear. Was it the best gear that would rival a Naxx 40 player? No, but it was still decent, was a complete set ( even had set bonuses) and gave you something to work for without just handing it to you and I never heard anyone bitch about it, casual or hardcore.

    #2 TBC Heroics/Badges/Rep Grinds/Dailies - Now you might ask just what is so special about those, they are some of the most hated things there is today. You know you are right, but thats because they have had all of the soul stripped out of them and watered down to the point they aren't even remotely enjoyable. Every single one of those had a multiplayer component, offered meaningful upgrades, and weren't just cake walks. Was it the best gear available? No, but out in the world it made you feel more powerful, and thats what really matters.

    #3 The old summonable bosses in Silithus - Sure I know the gear wasn't top notch raiding gear, but for most casuals it was still useful, still an upgrade, still required groups and was still a challenge.

    Now there is a group of casuals that do enjoy raiding, and they don't mind it on a semi schedule, I should know because I am in this group. I ran everything from MC, BWL, and AQ20 up until this newest raid in some form or fashion when the content was still somewhat relevant. There is a place for casual raid content as well as hardcore, however there is still a need for good old fashioned challenging content that doesn't require raiding.

    At some point over the course of the game, casual content became to mean easy, solo, joyless, and just not a ton of fun. I think Blizzard at some point made the mistake of trying to group every single casual together and thought they all wanted the same thing. Its kind of sad to think, but the harder Blizzard has tried to make better "casual" content the worse they have gotten at it. Sure there will always be that group that wants it easy as pie with top notch gear on a silver platter, but that is not the vast majority of the casual players, and it certainly isn't what constitutes meaningful progression.
    You do have no. 1 with the legendary chain. It's long, and not ONLY farming bosses. Some places need to be unlocked before you can move on, so you need the quests from that, and a couple of fights.
    I wouldn't mind less farming and more actual nice quests. I hope we see that in next expansion, but the farming in between we probably won't get rid of. It's there to make people have something to do while waiting for next patch, so they can move on with the chain, instead of clearing it all in first few days of a patch.

    I personally hate 2, but some likes it. Just don't want it to feel required to raid.

    3 is the worldbosses i guess. I didn't really do the silithus bosses, but agreed. Wouldn't be a bad thing to put in. Would have to be better than lfr gear, and maybe even flex. Otherwise people wouldn't bother today.

    Overall agree with your post though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Himora View Post
    Off to dinner with my fiance, if i had a raid tonight id be kicked from the guild /lolsomuchdesignflawdinnerwithfianceordoendgamechoosenow
    ta ta
    We raid just fine without kicking people for doing RL stuff. As long as they try to keep coming. Never kicked any from the guild for raiding issues. Or overall i think :P
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  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Xaragoth View Post
    DUNGEONS. Remember TBC? Classic? What did we do when we didn't Raid? We went and did DUNGEONS. Because they were fun. Because the Items there weren't just a stepping stone to Epics. Because we knew it'd be worth our time to do them.
    Yeah, they should've improved on their endgame 5-man dungeon system ever since Vanilla. To me places like Zul'aman 5-man were great fun. If they could add in a proper progression system and give people reasons to keep going back to dungeons over and over that would be sweet.

    Heck, I remember I spent a long time just grinding my tier0 set back in Vanilla...

    But I doubt that'll happen. We'll probably have to wait for a different MMO to deliver us such a thing, because Blizzard seems to think that creating 5 man dungeons takes too many resources... They rather throw recycled boring LFR at us instead.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by therayeffect View Post
    If you don't find the mountain of content aimed at casuals to be fun, then WoW isn't for you. I'm serious. They've bent over backwards for casuals so if you don't find the absurd amount of content fun, then this just isn't the game for you and you should move on.
    Yeah... They've bent over backwards but still didn't manage to deliver the right kind of meaningful content or what people are looking for. We can admit they've tried hard though, but failed hard too.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Yeah, they should've improved on their endgame 5-man dungeon system ever since Vanilla. To me places like Zul'aman 5-man were great fun. If they could add in a proper progression system and give people reasons to keep going back to dungeons over and over that would be sweet.

    Heck, I remember I spent a long time just grinding my tier0 set back in Vanilla...

    But I doubt that'll happen. We'll probably have to wait for a different MMO to deliver us such a thing, because Blizzard seems to think that creating 5 man dungeons takes too many resources... They rather throw recycled boring LFR at us instead.
    They did that in Cata and every casual cried that it was too hard. Every suggestion that I've seen in this thread so far (I haven't read that much of it) Blizz has already tried and it didn't work. Casuals change what they want every week it seems like. One week you guys want 5mans, next week you want raids, week after that you guys want more pets.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Terridon View Post
    You do have no. 1 with the legendary chain. It's long, and not ONLY farming bosses. Some places need to be unlocked before you can move on, so you need the quests from that, and a couple of fights.
    I wouldn't mind less farming and more actual nice quests. I hope we see that in next expansion, but the farming in between we probably won't get rid of. It's there to make people have something to do while waiting for next patch, so they can move on with the chain, instead of clearing it all in first few days of a patch.

    I personally hate 2, but some likes it. Just don't want it to feel required to raid.

    3 is the worldbosses i guess. I didn't really do the silithus bosses, but agreed. Wouldn't be a bad thing to put in. Would have to be better than lfr gear, and maybe even flex. Otherwise people wouldn't bother today.

    Overall agree with your post though.

    - - - Updated - - -


    We raid just fine without kicking people for doing RL stuff. As long as they try to keep coming. Never kicked any from the guild for raiding issues. Or overall i think :P
    Here is the problem with the Legendary though, it still requires you to endlessly grind LFR if you are a casual. Yeah I know its something to do, and yes at some point you gotta have a grind in there to slow the content consumption down, but why does it need to be inside a raid.

    I think my biggest problem lately with Blizzard is that they have tried to shoehorn everything way too much. Sure I know it slows down development a bit, but for the most part it would still be content that everyone, even hardcores will use. All of those things used to be ways to gear up alts, now its just doing the same exact LFR you are already tired of doing

  14. #314
    Do casuals themselves even know how to fix this without upsetting the less casual players?
    Seems like a big problem where everybody complains but no one has a good solution.

    I'm just hoping blizzard can make good on their promise of increasing development team by 40% and pump out patches every month. That would hopefully provide enough content for even casuals to want to stick around (not that they weren't talking about raid patches, so don't expect those or be prepared for disappointment).
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  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post

    Yeah... They've bent over backwards but still didn't manage to deliver the right kind of meaningful content or what people are looking for. We can admit they've tried hard though, but failed hard too.
    What do you want then? They've already done an absurd amount. If you REALLY find all this stuff they've done for you guys to be boring, you guys should just find a new game.

  16. #316
    Can we stop using the word , casuals? Wtf that even means? Basicaly, retards without any skill, that want the same gear as people with skill.... Dont come to me talking about the fu cking time.... If u are that busy, dont even bother playing the game, simple as that.... People need to understand, if they dont have time to play something like it should be, then get the fu ck off... Blizzard with this thing of making a game for everyone, is losing there trusted subscribers.... Typical of society "Hey i want the same as the other guy, but with no effort"... Jesus, enough is enough.... Fuck RF, merge flex and normal, and make heroic only accpeting 10 or 25 (To make two fairs run's and not 15).... About the "casual" that wants gear heroic, move your ass, go read some guides, go dummy's, and apply to a guild... (A lot make end content, with 3 days of raiding)....stfu with excuse of the "time", or "i wanna play when i want", they reality is that u su ck, and cant find one, then u assume u are a casual, but when we both do /played, u have the twice of me... If u wanna play when u want, u get what that times gives u.... Raid finder... "Hey i wanna be rich as that guy that works for that, but only working when i want..... 1 time a week"... Seems fair....
    Last edited by Kadix; 2013-11-02 at 02:03 PM.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by therayeffect View Post
    They did that in Cata and every casual cried that it was too hard. Every suggestion that I've seen in this thread so far (I haven't read that much of it) Blizz has already tried and it didn't work. Casuals change what they want every week it seems like. One week you guys want 5mans, next week you want raids, week after that you guys want more pets.
    Thats because you and Blizzard keep trying to throw every casual into the same boat. The casual crowd makes up 3/4 of the game population give or take, given those numbers they are going to be split much more in what they want and often different groups will want different things. Odds are at some point Blizzard should of probably picked a certain sub section of that group to let go, and frankly for me it would of been the gimme crowd that just wants everything solo and everything easy.

  18. #318
    Forum mods I ask dearly of you; Check Anarchors forum post history. He's a forum troll and this has to stop. I realise that some narrow-minded mod will infract me for this post, but fine. Whatever.

    Check his forum history and you'll see that he's just a troll trying to provoke people with topics like these. Seriously, enough is enough.
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  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by therayeffect View Post
    What do you want then? They've already done an absurd amount. If you REALLY find all this stuff they've done for you guys, you guys should just find a new game.
    Don't worry I already am playing different games. As it is currently Diablo3 is much more meaningful to play than WoW.

    I'm just throwing it out there what I expect from WoW to be interested in the next expansion, because if the next expansion is just going to be raidpatch after raidpatch again as end-game content, without any meaningful and fun progression system for casual players then I'm not even going to bother touching the next expansion and neither are any of my RL friends who are avid gamers, but who all seem to avoid WoW like the plague nowadays even if they used to be hardcore raiders at one point.

  20. #320
    Stood in the Fire Zantera's Avatar
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    If you want more challenging things to do, there's nothing stopping you from doing normal or hc. There's not even a need to commit to raiding every week, with the help of Openraid.eu and oQueue, you can get groups for things and do them.

    In the history of WoW, there has never been so much to do before, especially if you are a casual player. I can't even sympathize with the criticism since I started in TBC, and that was back when casuals were screwed over. Ever since WotlK (and more and more with each expansion), casuals have been spoonfed with content, and the amount of variety today is bigger than ever.
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