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  1. #641
    Incoming retardlong post. My apologies.

    During The Burning Crusade, WoW had the largest growth of subscription in its history. They didnt cater to casuals, yet, the casuals played it like ever before, without setting foot in the last tier of the expansion, some not even 2nd to last, also some (many) did not even see the first (Karazhan).

    The only other thing you had to gear you character was PvP(Arena was kinda free epics, even if you lost 10 matches a week) or 5man HC. The 5 man HC was hard, and if I remember correctly they dropped 1 epic from the last boss. You also had the badge system, but to get badges, you had to do dungoens.

    Trade was constantly spammed with LFM "insert 5man dungeon", but other than PvP or Dungeons, you casuals did not have alot to do. Yet, you kept playing.

    Wrath came along, with 10m and 25m split, this made Pugging better, and doable in all raids instead of just a selective few like in BC. And since there was not a shared lockout, alot of people from 10m guilds did 25m pugs, thus in alot of the pugs, there were people who were familiar with the content, and not only people who had never killed the boss before. 5 mans HC became a joke however.

    Getting gear as a casual in wrath was either Raid or VP, the 5man HC loot was not so viable as it used to be, even tho all loot was epic(?). Becase the ilvl inflation or whatever i should call it started to become a bit heavy already here. Diffrence in first raid ilvl to last.

    Cata was pretty much the same, just with lesser pugs due to shared lockout (Worst idea ever IMO). But in the end we were all introduced to the feature we all love, LFR. The non raiding population, for the first time in the history of WoW got to see current content, without needing to do anything really, while it was still current content, and it had loot! Other than this, they also implended alot of non-gear gaining content for people to play, like Darkmoon isle, from the way I understood it at the time, this was content for the "casual", giving them something to do in game.

    Now MoP. LFR has been here every tier content, every subscribed player to WoW, has for the first time in its history been able to see all the PvE content in game, something they apparently have always wanted since its launch. And guess what they do, they fucking complain its not good enough. /sigh

    Never before have there been more to do in-game both raiding wise and non raiding wise. I mean, as a raider, I can clear the raid 3 times each week if I want to! Yay, that wont burn me out at all!

    Non-raid content, there have been alot dailies (personally not a fan), 2-3 isles to farm vanity items on rares ++, On the last added Isle, you can get SoO LFR ready in about 30min after you ding lvl 90. I do agree that the 5man HC gear is horrid, and should be a somewhat viable option to gear a character, as in, add new 5mans like in wrath. HC scenario however, can give you OK gear. Then all tiers of content is available in LFR. Yet, since 11th of february 2005, I still dont understand what non-raiders need raid gear for.

    Solo content, we have Brawler's guild (Personally a big fan), Proving Grounds(Like the spectator friendly brawlers better, but a good challenge if you play a spec that scales horrid in low gear, read: fire mage). + all the other solo stuff that has been in game since forever, trying to solo old or current content. Achievment hunting. Grinding reps +++


    Now let me tell you my journey in WoW, and why I do not get the entitlement that is around now adays. I did not raid alot in classic, I spent my time in 5mans getting "tier set" and also the upgraded tier 0.5 or what we called it. Pugging onyxia now and then, and at the very end I raided a bit in Zul'Gurub and AQ20 with a guild. This was how I collected gear. 1 week before TBC launch I got my last epic gear to become full epic geared (this was the one thing I strived for the whole era of classic WoW) And damn how good it felt when I achived it. Yet, I had never killed a boss in any of the 40m raids with the exception of Onyxia. I still had an incredible journey, and I wish I one day would become one of those awsome geared players I met on this journey. (I was 15 when WoW launched)

    In the TBC, I did just that, applied for a guild and we rose to become the servers best guild. I raided Karazhan, Gruul, Magtheridon, SSC and TK before I i took a break in the raiding, occationally joined for a BT and Hyjal if they lacked a spot, So I got to finnish those raids when they were current aswell. I was 17, and to this date, this was the best time I had in WoW.

    Wrath came along, and I quit WoW I dont know how long, one week after launch. When I started playing again, I leveled my char, did some HC's, but personally it felt like I had more to do in classic as a non-raider than i did in Wrath. Got to lvl 80, did some Sartharion/Kara/Malygos pugs, cant remember pugging Ulduar. ICC came along, I did not have the gearscore people wanted, nor any achievment to get into any ICC pug. Luckily, one of my former guild buddies from TBC started a pug, and brought me with him. Did not do a single raid as a member of a guild run, every raid I did was from pug's. The last year of the expansion I played alot, but with a pretty casual playstyle. I started hunting for achievments, and grinding alot of reps, every time I logged on, I had something to do because of this.

    Cata came along, I did some casual 10m raiding in the first tier, then joined a 3days a week 4hrs a night 25m raiding guild for the rest of the expansion. 12hours raiding a week, yet, this expansion is probably the expansion I had the least amount of time /played. I logged on to raid, and that was pretty much it. Everything I could think of doing other than raiding, I had pretty much completed in Wrath when I did not raid.

    Now, in MoP, I am in the same guild as I were in Cata, tho I did not raid with them until ToT, and now we are progressing in SoO HC. This expansion I have played more than before when I did not raid. I completed all the new reputation grinds (a fuckton of dailies, due to this, I now hate dailies more than I did before, and I've never been a big fan). Yet, I am far from done with achievments, vanity item from rares and whatnot, If I had not been raiding, I would have had more to do ingame, because I would have needed to run LFR and Flex for gear progression aswell. Even tho I do raid, there is no doubt in my mind that this is the expansion that is the most casual friendly to date, but not the expansion that will keep them.

    And here is why: In classic, I continued to play because there was still so much to see in the game left for me. Was it a fucking timesink? Yes, but call it nostalgia, i dont care. You always had something to strive for. I ran 5 mans over and over again to get a gearpiece. This, combined with the fact that the game was new and exciting was why people kept playing it. TBC made some changes, getting gear was a bit easier, since all the leveling dungeons had HC versions at lvl 70. People raided all the raids in game, some guilds were progressing in Sunwell while other guild were still progressing Hyjal/BT, then you still had guilds trying to kill Kael or Vashj in SSC/TK, guilds with 10man kept running Kara and Zul aman. And this kept the subscribers. People ALWAYS had something to strive for.

    Now, even the "casuals" have seen the end game just a few weeks after Paragon or Blood Legion. We consume the game so much faster in every single aspect of it, no wonder the subs keep dropping. 95%(number out of my ass) of the playerbase has finnished the game 1 month after patch. While before, people still tried to finnish the game before the new expansion arrived.
    "
    And I think this is why even "casuals" complain there is not enough to do. Ofc it isnt, you have "finnished" the game.

    I dont even know if this post makes sense, I have written it all in quick reply and seeing 5 lines of text as I write, Ive probably repeated myself somwhere. But anyway, thats my 2cents.

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    not gonna with this one with him. he will just rattle on the same dry old arguments and turn a blind eye to anything approaching reason when it comes to effort=reward. he truly feels that -effort should also = the same reward because he pays the same amount to log on the game.
    Not sure if you're talking about me or the person I've been quoting xD
    Either way: Effort should equal reward yes. I said earlier that I wouldn't mind if the game had a solo rpg style aspect to it that gave gear with some "new" stat that only benefits your solo content similar to how pvp used to take up one of its two stats simply to make you better in pvp while sucking in pve. I just don't think it makes sense considering this is an MMORPG and not a single player RPG.

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  3. #643
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    I don't think exciting is the right way to look at it. For one thing exciting is subjective and people have different opinions about what is and what isn't 'exciting'.

    My take is that the better way to describe the problem is diversity. The next expansion needs to offer the casual player more diversity in the way they can progress their character over time. A good mix of dungeons, raids, scenarios, dailies and things like Timeless Isle all need to be in play along with a new idea or two. All need to be alternate ways to the same end: feeling as if your toon has improved over a reasonable amount of time whether you prefer to play solo, only with friends, or if grouping up with random strangers is your thing.
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  4. #644
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually in Marvel the one I'm currently playing you can buy heroes or unlock them. It's a great model. I bought one unlocked another.
    Then buy a raid carry. You are already half way there.







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  5. #645
    if your a casual player then you dont need the rewards that normal/ heroic raiding player get, why do you even need gear that is on par with high level raiding, to gain gear you must be skilled enough to complete that content, if your skill level is not up to the required standard then you have to settle with lesser rewards, the game is already way too easy as it is, so if there is no challenge left what would be the point in having the best gear if any player could attain this.

    Casual raiding doesnt mean you dont or cant progress and clear current normal/heroic raiding content, even if you just put say 3-4 hours raiding time 3 times a week, you can at the very least clear all current normal content and with some effort several heroic kills, current raid gear must be of some challenge to attain for all players who raid.

  6. #646
    So...you want 5mans with raiding ilvl gear, u want the reward, but dont got the "time" for raiding, then u dont get the reward, DEAL WITH IT
    If ur not raiding, why do u even need raiding ilvl gear, to look cool? Well, to bad
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  7. #647
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Okay. For people lots of people raids were never the after of something. Dungeons or pvp or whatever was their limit. 5 man content was end game for them because their view was never about raiding at all or even at any serious level. You're definition is of course uterrly arbitrary but you can make the case that it's correct once you understand the view point of peopel WHO NEVER RAIDED or had any desire or interest.

    By your own definition (once applied to the view of people who aren't raiders) end game was dungeons because RAIDING WASN'T IN THEIR VIEW. 5 mans were indeed end game for those folks.

    Like I said your defintion is pretty arbitrary and I don't even think I've seen the developers use it like that but even when you do you can clearly illustrate that for people with no intention, ability, or desire to raid raiding was not in their purview and subsequently end game for them was dungeons because once they were done farming them they were effectively done with the pve side of the game. Raiding for them was not a thing.

    Maybe you'd prefer the term max lvl content? I mean for somebody who only does flex raids does that not count as end game? It's still raiding but shit does come after it namely normal and heroic. Is the only end game content to be heroic raiding then? Since nothing comes after that?
    This is stretching even for you. Just because players choose not to complete end game content does not change the fact that it is the end game.







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  8. #648
    Scarab Lord cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Nope. You can keep trying to put words in my mouth, but pretty much nobody here said anything about 'less work' or 'less effort'.
    Well, what do you want then? Free gearz for no effort? That's basically what your post said. "I want to log on anytime, and do whatever I want, whenever I want, and get better stuff when I do." Did I miss something?
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  9. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Nope. You can keep trying to put words in my mouth, but pretty much nobody here said anything about 'less work' or 'less effort'.
    That's what you're asking for though. There is no other way to do it. Someone earlier posted about a hard dungeon. lol. I've completed all Gold modes. The average player would scream with rage if they had to do them and at the end of the day you'd be back to square one. You'd be in there for around 3 hours marking CC's wiping etc etc.

    You comment about how you like Dark Souls so much, good stay there. If you want to play when you want and feel like it play single player games.

    It's sad that WoW can't manage to offer this, because I do love the Warcraft lore and universe and the gameplay mechanics and fluidity as a whole.
    If offers all of this do the quests that's lore and immersing yourself in the universe. It's not hard but if you love the lore it offers that.

    This basically boils down to you wanting a single player game on a platform that fundamentally isn't designed for it. You want an RPG this is a MMO.

  10. #650
    If you played for 30 days straight and got a full set of new content gear, is it fair if someone logs in for the first time on the 30th day and is given that same full set? If you say yes, then there is no help for you.

    People complaining why things are "mandatory" first need to know that paying for the game is not mandatory. After paying, then know that playing is not mandatory. After playing then know that regardless of what you've gotten or lack thereof is irrelevant. Being ABLE to play constitutes the payment...actually playing or getting anything does not.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaman View Post
    And I think this is why even "casuals" complain there is not enough to do. Ofc it isnt, you have "finnished" the game.
    This times a million. I hate all the LFR heroes who log in long enough to "finish" the content and then complain that the raid tier was boring. No duh the raid tier was boring. It's only exciting when you get a group of friends together and beat the shit out of some baddie from the lore, barely scraping by, and finally seeing that guy drop you some shiny loot. THAT is what raiding is about.

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  12. #652
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Nope. You can keep trying to put words in my mouth, but pretty much nobody here said anything about 'less work' or 'less effort'.
    You have repeatedly said it but avoided mouthing the words.

    "exciting end game content that offers the same rewards as those earned by the raiding community to those who feel that raiding is too (put the excuse here)".







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  13. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by eros701 View Post
    Being ABLE to play constitutes the payment...actually playing or getting anything does not.
    Likewise
    paying for the game does not mean you should be able to complete a game
    Paying for game means you can ATTEMPT to beat the game
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  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I feel like Captain Obvious when making this thread, but the game right now? It's shit. Not just normal shit, but pure shite.

    LFR? There's no fun in LFR. You run through it once to see the content... and next week you cancel your subscription again until the next raidpatch. In fact I didn't even bother doing LFR either for the last patch, since I already know it's just going to be a huge timedrain of mashing my DPS buttons on an easy boss that takes too long to drop dead.

    Timeless Isle, Proving Grounds, Brawler's Guild? Irrelevant content. I might be a casual, but that doesn't mean that I want to do challenging content that doesn't reward anything. I still like to feel my character growing stronger and earning rewards for the challenges that are offered to me.

    If Blizzard doesn't manage to add an endgame to the next expansion which offers the same excitement and rewards as normal or heroic raiding, but for casual players, who just want to play when they feel like it, then this will be the expansion that will cause the entire ship to sink.
    Are you fucking kidding me ? What do you want? You have LFR which is already poison. Now its too easy? You're a casual and don't want to put in the time and effort for normal or heroic raiding then DO NOT RAID. It's simple. The game needs to go back to LESS CASUAL raiding experience. Get rid of the nonsense. We need the old days where we had to farm 5 mans to gear for raids that took us longer than 6 hours to gear for. Raids where bosses were literally impossible until we got gear from the previous bosses or tier. BC days are what is needed. Where more bosses than are actually killable are available but just too hard. Stop asking for MORE casual content, there is already everything handed to you on a silver platter. You even get a legendary for doing 50k dps in LFR. Go away please

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    This is stretching even for you.
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  16. #656
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    "exciting end game content that offers the same rewards as those earned by the raiding community to those who feel that raiding is too (put the excuse here)".
    I don't see any hard-and-fast game design law that says that raids must offer the best gear now and forever. The game can and has worked that way from the beginning but there's no reason that I can think of that precludes getting gear that's 'close enough'--say just a few ilevels less--from other activities. Playing for gear as the only reward is a dead end anyway and is a bigger problem than a lot of people want to talk about. We're at the point right now where the next expansion looms on the horizon and most of the best gear available will go on the trash heap if Blizzard follows true-to-form.

    There has to be a better way.
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  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    You have repeatedly said it but avoided mouthing the words.

    "exciting end game content that offers the same rewards as those earned by the raiding community to those who feel that raiding is too (put the excuse here)".
    Indeed, there's quite a high standard of bullshit coming from certain directions.

    Show me what the "hardcore" has the casual doesn't...

    Oooooh it's gear from raids they took the time to complete at a difficulty level that takes effort.

    (in the voice of a casual: )
    "I want the same stuff as hardcores but casual friendly" basically equates to EXACTLY what is being repeatedly said here "I want the same for less effort". You don't want casual content, you want casual content to give stuff as powerful as hardcore content - what's in it then for those that DO want to play a decent amount rather than just logging in and receiving free purples?

    If there wasn't any casual content, no issue, you totally have an argument.
    That isn't your beef though, your problem is people having better gear/more achievements than you. "I pay the same, I should be a powerful" isn't the same as "there's no content for casuals".

    Hardcore content is casual content + 2 difficulty levels of THE EXACT SAME THING. That's it, there's nothing extra. If you can't be arsed playing much, you have all the content that DOESN'T require a time or skill commitment.
    Last edited by mercutiouk; 2013-11-03 at 04:18 AM.
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  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by zaneosak View Post
    Are you fucking kidding me ? What do you want? You have LFR which is already poison. Now its too easy? You're a casual and don't want to put in the time and effort for normal or heroic raiding then DO NOT RAID. It's simple. The game needs to go back to LESS CASUAL raiding experience. Get rid of the nonsense. We need the old days where we had to farm 5 mans to gear for raids that took us longer than 6 hours to gear for. Raids where bosses were literally impossible until we got gear from the previous bosses or tier. BC days are what is needed. Where more bosses than are actually killable are available but just too hard. Stop asking for MORE casual content, there is already everything handed to you on a silver platter. You even get a legendary for doing 50k dps in LFR. Go away please
    Nah we don't need to go back to that disaster. But I guess if you have nothing else better to do with your time then the BC version was great for you. A lot of us have grown up and have responsibilities and luckily Blizzard knows that and provides us with some form of raiding that suits an adults schedule.

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I don't see any hard-and-fast game design law that says that raids must offer the best gear now and forever. The game can and has worked that way from the beginning but there's no reason that I can think of that precludes getting gear that's 'close enough'--say just a few ilevels less--from other activities. Playing for gear as the only reward is a dead end anyway and is a bigger problem than a lot of people want to talk about. We're at the point right now where the next expansion looms on the horizon and most of the best gear available will go on the trash heap if Blizzard follows true-to-form.

    There has to be a better way.
    This point about moving away from raiding as the only method though - sure.

    Have 5 mans scale. Scaling mob strength, health and difficulty of pulls.
    Have bosses with more abilities and the odd rare (and stronger) mob in the trash packs with slightly better gear drops.

    E.g (if the average gear ilvl of the players entering is):
    bare ilvl needed - standard mobs
    +10 - standard mobs, a little more health, more cash, bosses drop +5 ilvl higher gear
    +20 - standard mobs, some packs harder though (e.g more casters/cleavers less basic melee). Bosses get 2nd tier of abilities and drop +15 ilvl higher gear
    +30 - harder mobs, many harder pulls. Bosses get 3rd tier of abilities and drop lowish ilvl epics

    and so on...

    I'm not suggesting harder raids should be the only gear source, I AM suggesting that the "do nothing, get stuff" mentality needs to die painfully in a house fire.
    Last edited by mercutiouk; 2013-11-03 at 04:16 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxAkirhaxx
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  20. #660
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    We're at the point right now where the next expansion looms on the horizon and most of the best gear available will go on the trash heap if Blizzard follows true-to-form.

    There has to be a better way.
    Population conditioning dictates that this simply proceed as it always has. One of the biggest complaints about challenge modes is that the gear they offered wasn't in any way progressive. One of the biggest complaints about item squish is that characters will feel 'weaker'.

    When it comes to game attributes like this, Blizzard has kind of made the bed they need to sleep in.
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