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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    not gonna with this one with him. he will just rattle on the same dry old arguments and turn a blind eye to anything approaching reason when it comes to effort=reward. he truly feels that -effort should also = the same reward because he pays the same amount to log on the game.
    Not sure if you're talking about me or the person I've been quoting xD
    Either way: Effort should equal reward yes. I said earlier that I wouldn't mind if the game had a solo rpg style aspect to it that gave gear with some "new" stat that only benefits your solo content similar to how pvp used to take up one of its two stats simply to make you better in pvp while sucking in pve. I just don't think it makes sense considering this is an MMORPG and not a single player RPG.

  2. #642
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    I don't think exciting is the right way to look at it. For one thing exciting is subjective and people have different opinions about what is and what isn't 'exciting'.

    My take is that the better way to describe the problem is diversity. The next expansion needs to offer the casual player more diversity in the way they can progress their character over time. A good mix of dungeons, raids, scenarios, dailies and things like Timeless Isle all need to be in play along with a new idea or two. All need to be alternate ways to the same end: feeling as if your toon has improved over a reasonable amount of time whether you prefer to play solo, only with friends, or if grouping up with random strangers is your thing.
    People will be happy enough to stand up for America if they're comfortable with what American stands for.

  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually in Marvel the one I'm currently playing you can buy heroes or unlock them. It's a great model. I bought one unlocked another.
    Then buy a raid carry. You are already half way there.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  4. #644
    if your a casual player then you dont need the rewards that normal/ heroic raiding player get, why do you even need gear that is on par with high level raiding, to gain gear you must be skilled enough to complete that content, if your skill level is not up to the required standard then you have to settle with lesser rewards, the game is already way too easy as it is, so if there is no challenge left what would be the point in having the best gear if any player could attain this.

    Casual raiding doesnt mean you dont or cant progress and clear current normal/heroic raiding content, even if you just put say 3-4 hours raiding time 3 times a week, you can at the very least clear all current normal content and with some effort several heroic kills, current raid gear must be of some challenge to attain for all players who raid.

  5. #645
    Scarab Lord Frolk's Avatar
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    So...you want 5mans with raiding ilvl gear, u want the reward, but dont got the "time" for raiding, then u dont get the reward, DEAL WITH IT
    If ur not raiding, why do u even need raiding ilvl gear, to look cool? Well, to bad

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Okay. For people lots of people raids were never the after of something. Dungeons or pvp or whatever was their limit. 5 man content was end game for them because their view was never about raiding at all or even at any serious level. You're definition is of course uterrly arbitrary but you can make the case that it's correct once you understand the view point of peopel WHO NEVER RAIDED or had any desire or interest.

    By your own definition (once applied to the view of people who aren't raiders) end game was dungeons because RAIDING WASN'T IN THEIR VIEW. 5 mans were indeed end game for those folks.

    Like I said your defintion is pretty arbitrary and I don't even think I've seen the developers use it like that but even when you do you can clearly illustrate that for people with no intention, ability, or desire to raid raiding was not in their purview and subsequently end game for them was dungeons because once they were done farming them they were effectively done with the pve side of the game. Raiding for them was not a thing.

    Maybe you'd prefer the term max lvl content? I mean for somebody who only does flex raids does that not count as end game? It's still raiding but shit does come after it namely normal and heroic. Is the only end game content to be heroic raiding then? Since nothing comes after that?
    This is stretching even for you. Just because players choose not to complete end game content does not change the fact that it is the end game.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  7. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Nope. You can keep trying to put words in my mouth, but pretty much nobody here said anything about 'less work' or 'less effort'.
    Well, what do you want then? Free gearz for no effort? That's basically what your post said. "I want to log on anytime, and do whatever I want, whenever I want, and get better stuff when I do." Did I miss something?
    The less you know, the more you believe.

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  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Nope. You can keep trying to put words in my mouth, but pretty much nobody here said anything about 'less work' or 'less effort'.
    That's what you're asking for though. There is no other way to do it. Someone earlier posted about a hard dungeon. lol. I've completed all Gold modes. The average player would scream with rage if they had to do them and at the end of the day you'd be back to square one. You'd be in there for around 3 hours marking CC's wiping etc etc.

    You comment about how you like Dark Souls so much, good stay there. If you want to play when you want and feel like it play single player games.

    It's sad that WoW can't manage to offer this, because I do love the Warcraft lore and universe and the gameplay mechanics and fluidity as a whole.
    If offers all of this do the quests that's lore and immersing yourself in the universe. It's not hard but if you love the lore it offers that.

    This basically boils down to you wanting a single player game on a platform that fundamentally isn't designed for it. You want an RPG this is a MMO.

  9. #649
    If you played for 30 days straight and got a full set of new content gear, is it fair if someone logs in for the first time on the 30th day and is given that same full set? If you say yes, then there is no help for you.

    People complaining why things are "mandatory" first need to know that paying for the game is not mandatory. After paying, then know that playing is not mandatory. After playing then know that regardless of what you've gotten or lack thereof is irrelevant. Being ABLE to play constitutes the payment...actually playing or getting anything does not.

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaman View Post
    And I think this is why even "casuals" complain there is not enough to do. Ofc it isnt, you have "finnished" the game.
    This times a million. I hate all the LFR heroes who log in long enough to "finish" the content and then complain that the raid tier was boring. No duh the raid tier was boring. It's only exciting when you get a group of friends together and beat the shit out of some baddie from the lore, barely scraping by, and finally seeing that guy drop you some shiny loot. THAT is what raiding is about.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Nope. You can keep trying to put words in my mouth, but pretty much nobody here said anything about 'less work' or 'less effort'.
    You have repeatedly said it but avoided mouthing the words.

    "exciting end game content that offers the same rewards as those earned by the raiding community to those who feel that raiding is too (put the excuse here)".
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  12. #652
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by eros701 View Post
    Being ABLE to play constitutes the payment...actually playing or getting anything does not.
    Likewise
    paying for the game does not mean you should be able to complete a game
    Paying for game means you can ATTEMPT to beat the game
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I feel like Captain Obvious when making this thread, but the game right now? It's shit. Not just normal shit, but pure shite.

    LFR? There's no fun in LFR. You run through it once to see the content... and next week you cancel your subscription again until the next raidpatch. In fact I didn't even bother doing LFR either for the last patch, since I already know it's just going to be a huge timedrain of mashing my DPS buttons on an easy boss that takes too long to drop dead.

    Timeless Isle, Proving Grounds, Brawler's Guild? Irrelevant content. I might be a casual, but that doesn't mean that I want to do challenging content that doesn't reward anything. I still like to feel my character growing stronger and earning rewards for the challenges that are offered to me.

    If Blizzard doesn't manage to add an endgame to the next expansion which offers the same excitement and rewards as normal or heroic raiding, but for casual players, who just want to play when they feel like it, then this will be the expansion that will cause the entire ship to sink.
    Are you fucking kidding me ? What do you want? You have LFR which is already poison. Now its too easy? You're a casual and don't want to put in the time and effort for normal or heroic raiding then DO NOT RAID. It's simple. The game needs to go back to LESS CASUAL raiding experience. Get rid of the nonsense. We need the old days where we had to farm 5 mans to gear for raids that took us longer than 6 hours to gear for. Raids where bosses were literally impossible until we got gear from the previous bosses or tier. BC days are what is needed. Where more bosses than are actually killable are available but just too hard. Stop asking for MORE casual content, there is already everything handed to you on a silver platter. You even get a legendary for doing 50k dps in LFR. Go away please

  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    This is stretching even for you.
    Welcome to a GL post.
    And it's squeezing all the air out of this goddamn cave I live in.

  15. #655
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    "exciting end game content that offers the same rewards as those earned by the raiding community to those who feel that raiding is too (put the excuse here)".
    I don't see any hard-and-fast game design law that says that raids must offer the best gear now and forever. The game can and has worked that way from the beginning but there's no reason that I can think of that precludes getting gear that's 'close enough'--say just a few ilevels less--from other activities. Playing for gear as the only reward is a dead end anyway and is a bigger problem than a lot of people want to talk about. We're at the point right now where the next expansion looms on the horizon and most of the best gear available will go on the trash heap if Blizzard follows true-to-form.

    There has to be a better way.
    People will be happy enough to stand up for America if they're comfortable with what American stands for.

  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    You have repeatedly said it but avoided mouthing the words.

    "exciting end game content that offers the same rewards as those earned by the raiding community to those who feel that raiding is too (put the excuse here)".
    Indeed, there's quite a high standard of bullshit coming from certain directions.

    Show me what the "hardcore" has the casual doesn't...

    Oooooh it's gear from raids they took the time to complete at a difficulty level that takes effort.

    (in the voice of a casual: )
    "I want the same stuff as hardcores but casual friendly" basically equates to EXACTLY what is being repeatedly said here "I want the same for less effort". You don't want casual content, you want casual content to give stuff as powerful as hardcore content - what's in it then for those that DO want to play a decent amount rather than just logging in and receiving free purples?

    If there wasn't any casual content, no issue, you totally have an argument.
    That isn't your beef though, your problem is people having better gear/more achievements than you. "I pay the same, I should be a powerful" isn't the same as "there's no content for casuals".

    Hardcore content is casual content + 2 difficulty levels of THE EXACT SAME THING. That's it, there's nothing extra. If you can't be arsed playing much, you have all the content that DOESN'T require a time or skill commitment.
    Last edited by mercutiouk; 2013-11-03 at 04:18 AM.
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  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by zaneosak View Post
    Are you fucking kidding me ? What do you want? You have LFR which is already poison. Now its too easy? You're a casual and don't want to put in the time and effort for normal or heroic raiding then DO NOT RAID. It's simple. The game needs to go back to LESS CASUAL raiding experience. Get rid of the nonsense. We need the old days where we had to farm 5 mans to gear for raids that took us longer than 6 hours to gear for. Raids where bosses were literally impossible until we got gear from the previous bosses or tier. BC days are what is needed. Where more bosses than are actually killable are available but just too hard. Stop asking for MORE casual content, there is already everything handed to you on a silver platter. You even get a legendary for doing 50k dps in LFR. Go away please
    Nah we don't need to go back to that disaster. But I guess if you have nothing else better to do with your time then the BC version was great for you. A lot of us have grown up and have responsibilities and luckily Blizzard knows that and provides us with some form of raiding that suits an adults schedule.

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I don't see any hard-and-fast game design law that says that raids must offer the best gear now and forever. The game can and has worked that way from the beginning but there's no reason that I can think of that precludes getting gear that's 'close enough'--say just a few ilevels less--from other activities. Playing for gear as the only reward is a dead end anyway and is a bigger problem than a lot of people want to talk about. We're at the point right now where the next expansion looms on the horizon and most of the best gear available will go on the trash heap if Blizzard follows true-to-form.

    There has to be a better way.
    This point about moving away from raiding as the only method though - sure.

    Have 5 mans scale. Scaling mob strength, health and difficulty of pulls.
    Have bosses with more abilities and the odd rare (and stronger) mob in the trash packs with slightly better gear drops.

    E.g (if the average gear ilvl of the players entering is):
    bare ilvl needed - standard mobs
    +10 - standard mobs, a little more health, more cash, bosses drop +5 ilvl higher gear
    +20 - standard mobs, some packs harder though (e.g more casters/cleavers less basic melee). Bosses get 2nd tier of abilities and drop +15 ilvl higher gear
    +30 - harder mobs, many harder pulls. Bosses get 3rd tier of abilities and drop lowish ilvl epics

    and so on...

    I'm not suggesting harder raids should be the only gear source, I AM suggesting that the "do nothing, get stuff" mentality needs to die painfully in a house fire.
    Last edited by mercutiouk; 2013-11-03 at 04:16 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    I knew it would be useful to be french at some point.
    Quote Originally Posted by xxAkirhaxx
    just get a mac. It's like sleeping with a fat chick to avoid STD's.

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    We're at the point right now where the next expansion looms on the horizon and most of the best gear available will go on the trash heap if Blizzard follows true-to-form.

    There has to be a better way.
    Population conditioning dictates that this simply proceed as it always has. One of the biggest complaints about challenge modes is that the gear they offered wasn't in any way progressive. One of the biggest complaints about item squish is that characters will feel 'weaker'.

    When it comes to game attributes like this, Blizzard has kind of made the bed they need to sleep in.
    And it's squeezing all the air out of this goddamn cave I live in.

  20. #660
    Epic! The Iron Fist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    I can't be tied to a schedule in a video game.
    Then you shouldn't raid. Period. This isn't coming from a hardcore raider either. Thats why having hard and challenging 5man dungeons is so important and why Blizzard is killing their sub base - the core of this game isn't and never was raiding, it was 5 mans. Now that 5mans are irrelevant, so is the game.
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