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  1. #961
    Lets say Blizzard does add more challenging Heroic 5 Mans in new expansion that are a lot of fun. Why wont people just QQ again and get them nerfed like when Cata first came out? Then we are back to the same old boring face roll dungeons that arent fun.

  2. #962
    Quote Originally Posted by Dabrix32 View Post
    Lets say Blizzard does add more challenging Heroic 5 Mans in new expansion that are a lot of fun. Why wont people just QQ again and get them nerfed like when Cata first came out? Then we are back to the same old boring face roll dungeons that arent fun.
    Because hard content is a lot of time for the casuals (read bads)

    But thats really it. They dont want to kick the people messing up because it is toxic and they dont want to take a long time in a dungeon. They want both things and as a result Blizz has to dumb down the dungeons (yes, the dungeon aspect of the game has been dumbed down) to match their playstyle.

    I blame Wrath heroics, and they did the same crap again with Mist heroics.

  3. #963
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    Still no one answered. Why do people think blizz must cater casuals the most? You already have more than enough to do, let blizzard focus on other types of people.

  4. #964
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    Quote Originally Posted by enchanted View Post
    Still no one answered. Why do people think blizz must cater casuals the most? You already have more than enough to do, let blizzard focus on other types of people.
    Pretty obvious? Most subs comes from casual players.
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  5. #965
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    They don't want to, is the simple answer. Infact, that was why LFR got made. People weren't touching, and never seemed to want to touch that content.
    EXACTLY! Many people don't want to raid. Why is Blizzard trying to push everyone into content and play style that they don't want to do? Why not build the kind of content those people actually want?

    But you can't honestly expect Blizzard to not tailor their game to these people, can you, when they're the majority?
    You're talking like the only choice is to fully cater to one group. The strength of WoW used to be that it catered to all kinds of play styles. I had no interest in raiding in Vanilla (because I was a casual and didn't want to commit to raiding on schedule and in large groups), but I had a great time in 5-mans which suited me perfectly. Now instead of providing 5-man content that suits casuals better, they want to stop building 5-man content altogether and push everyone into the raids.

    Vanilla showed that you can build both extremely hardcore content and extremely casual content, and the result will be one of the most popular MMORPGs ever made.

    I think WoW's backed into a corner now that it'll never, ever get out of, with the audience it has. MMOs are, or rather, were, meant to be niche. Appealing to the casual market never, ever, ever really would work long term for the type of things MMOs do. Arguably, it never worked, considering all the stories we've ever heard about subscriber churn.
    I think WoW had it right, it was a game where you could be a casual or a hardcore or anything in between. Having those different groups in the game resulted in an interesting game world. It worked, it had millions more subs than the casualized game has today. And churn is just a fact of life, every year you get one generation leaving and a new one coming in. WoW's problem is that it's no longer appealing to those new generations and it's losing the old ones at an increasing rate.

  6. #966
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Now instead of providing 5-man content that suits casuals better, they want to stop building 5-man content altogether and push everyone into the raids.
    But not because they believe it's the best gameplay experience which they can deliver. They clearly stated multiple times that they ditched 5mans, even during cataclysm, because the investment in building the environment, to create the artworks, is too much for them. Way easier to tune some numbers in a raid, flip some switches to disable mechanics as a whole, and serve this as "content".

    Releasing a raid in four(!) "flavours" is way more costefficient. And you can clearly see that this is atm the only thing which matters for them. Orgrimmar is, even more than Dragon Soul, a clear statement that their creative team is workin on something different than the current expansion. May it be a different game or simply the next expansion which they will sel for hard money doesn't change the fact that they try to "fill" the game with cheap content. Brawler's Guild, a few pets, the grindful isle....

  7. #967
    Quote Originally Posted by Dabrix32 View Post
    Lets say Blizzard does add more challenging Heroic 5 Mans in new expansion that are a lot of fun. Why wont people just QQ again and get them nerfed like when Cata first came out? Then we are back to the same old boring face roll dungeons that arent fun.
    The problem is that they keep swinging between making ALL dungeons either hard or trivial and it's not just an issue of different skill levels, it's also annoying to the same players. If I log in my favourite character after a boring day at work and just want to relax a bit, I'd like to have some simple brainless content to plow through with some guaranteed reward and this is well served by the current model of fast, easy dungeons, but then every once in a while when I have more time I'd really like to get together with a bunch of mates and do some engaging content that actually requires me to be awake.

    Another problem is that they required you to grind these dungeons for your daily tokens and once you do a dungeon again and again and again it starts getting extremely annoying to wipe because someone doesn't know the mechanics.

    If I were to design an MMO from scratch, I'd include two kinds of dungeons, Diablo-like slightly randomized dungeons for the daily token grind and the leveling grind and harder, longer designed dungeons with good but not exclusive rewards (eg completing the dungeon could be worth finishing several shorter dungeons to get your weekly cap of tokens, they could reward mounts, titles, gold etc). They've tried having normal and hard mode dungeons but they've always made the normal mode gear so inferior that people didn't run them.

  8. #968
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    I think what is probably needed to make the life of a casual player rich and interesting is not instances or scenarios (although they, too, would be welcome), but rather some parallel progression path or paths.

    Think about something like this, for example: what if they take the concept of Brawler's Guild and design a lot of small boss encounters, like, 100 of them, then assign every boss a location in the world, make them solo-visible only (similarly to archeology sites), then spawn 4 or 5 of them every day (one per continent)? A casual player would have to find these bosses and kill them, for a chance at raid-level loot (eg, 10% to drop a normal-raid-level epic). Some bosses would be easier, some more difficult, some next to impossible for certain specs, etc. Some would go in circles, some would stay. There could be NPCs telling them what bosses are up for a fee. Could work?

    There could be other systems like that as well, and they could drop not gear, but, say, raid-level recipes or materials, collectionables, etc.
    Last edited by rda; 2013-11-03 at 03:46 PM.

  9. #969
    Quote Originally Posted by Zatetic View Post
    Even bleeding subs at this rate they still have quite a few more quarters yet before they are down to the 1mil mark (which is still a success by mmo standards)
    It's far from a success though in terms of WoW. Sure, as far as MMO's go, 1 million is about average. WoW though is an entirely different beast, one that at it's peak raked in 12 million people at one time.

    Another fact is that most of those 1 million subscriber MMOs flare out within a year or two, going free to play or even closing down entirely. I don't know about you, but I don't want that fate for WoW.

    WoW needs to go back to it's roots. Make it so that people actually have to commit time to the game to see things and get that feeling of accomplishment. Without that, we're going to see the same decline we've seen ever since the game switched to a casual friendly, everyone sees everything day one, snoozefest it has been lately.

  10. #970
    Whatever Blizzard might do it would probably be too late. The playerbase is already too segregated, there are two groups of players who don't want to play with each other. If WoW was a country it would already be on the process of splitting into two independent states.

  11. #971
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Hell, moreover, do these people even really want to play an MMO? Seems to me that 95% of WoW audience don't. But you can't honestly expect Blizzard to not tailor their game to these people, can you, when they're the majority?
    I can expect them to, as it's proving to be a fruitless endeavor appealing to folks who are likely not to be long term enthusiasts of the game anyhow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    I think WoW's backed into a corner now that it'll never, ever get out of, with the audience it has. MMOs are, or rather, were, meant to be niche. Appealing to the casual market never, ever, ever really would work long term for the type of things MMOs do.
    Really, Blizzards first mistake was trying to placate folks who wanted a plethora of convenience added to the game way back when, because that sort of appeasement is simply a never ending, and ultimately losing battle.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  12. #972
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kourvith
    Having both « casual » and « exciting » in the same request for (what is supposed to be) a RPG feels very wrong to me.

    Role playing games have always been revolving around empirical evolution. That is the core design of any RPG on earth, may it be videogame or pen & paper. Such an evolution needs time investment, has always needed and will always need some. And that's where the word « casual » stops to make sense. A RPG is made like a carrier (progress, learning, choices, achievements, teamwork, etc). You don't make it to the top of your carrier without investing a decent amount of time and work into it.
    That's all fine. What is not fine is that all this gets limited to raidgroup content or tight casual unfriendly raidshedules.

    Flex raiding was a step in the right direction, but ... erh, not completely in my opinion.

    Do you think League of Legends would've been a popular game if it didn't have queues?
    Raiding is just a part of the game, though And it's clearly not the casual one.
    Anyway, if a casual player feels there is a lack of endgame content for him / her, I don't think it's Blizzard's fault, as there are many, many mini-games available (pvp, dailies, scenarios, challenges, crafting, collecting, pet battles, etc). If among all those activities something feels lacking, it's not the content, it's the risk / reward. And in my opinion, risk / reward in a RPG is the total opposite mentality of casual gamedesign.

    A lot of games can be casual and risk / rewarding (fighting games, notably). But as I mentionned, RPG's main gamedesign (character evolution) is completely empirical (actually, the very definition of evolving is empirical).

    I think that casuals will never stop wanting more rewards for fewer efforts, not because they're lazy, but because most of them are simply former (more or less) hardcore gamers, that now feel frustrated for not being able to reach that state anymore (for any reason, like time, family, etc). They are left powerless. Not their fault indeed, but that might explain why so many people are unwelcoming casual requests of grand content : it could feel like a problem with themselves more than with the game, where they would have to admit they can't be what they used to be anymore. And honestly, I can sympathize with that frustration, as a former HC player myself.

    (that's my very personal reflexion indeed, I can respect diverging opinions)
    Last edited by Kourvith; 2013-11-03 at 04:43 PM.

  13. #973
    Quote Originally Posted by enchanted View Post
    Still no one answered. Why do people think blizz must cater casuals the most? You already have more than enough to do, let blizzard focus on other types of people.
    Because there are apparently more of them. Simple enough. You design for the audience you have.

  14. #974
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    Whatever Blizzard might do it would probably be too late. The playerbase is already too segregated, there are two groups of players who don't want to play with each other. If WoW was a country it would already be on the process of splitting into two independent states.
    Like Korea? Hardcores are definitely North Korea then. Just because they can build nukes they think they're powerful, when in reality none is better than the other in any way.

  15. #975
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    For the ones who said that the majority of the audience are casuals well the thing is, as I've stated in the last page is that there are tons for things for casuals to do. Hardcore should get abit more attention. Maybe make the game harder abit for them or something?

  16. #976
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    Personally I'm of the mind that Blizzard probably should not have combined 10 and 25man raid loot and put them on the same lockout. Those people who hit raiding and found it too hard and couldn't do 5 mans at the beginning of Cataclysm started a serious decline and Blizz has been trying to recover ever since. I'm not sure subs will ever stabilize, especially considering people like the OP are consistently wanting more niche content that may cause other content to decline in quality.
    A typical raid leader command would be something like "Yo Scrub, why don't you YOLO 1337 yards to the left because the boss's Swag is about to hit us in 3 seconds".
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFuFanta View Post
    Oh my god, a company tries to put some lore flavor into the game mechanics, all is lost, whatever shall we do without a whole 1% of crit or haste.
    Quick, call Ukraine and Russia, let them know to put their conflict on standby because Touch of Elune is BULLSHIT!

  17. #977
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    Quote Originally Posted by enchanted View Post
    For the ones who said that the majority of the audience are casuals well the thing is, as I've stated in the last page is that there are tons for things for casuals to do. Hardcore should get abit more attention. Maybe make the game harder abit for them or something?
    I disagree that there are tons of things for casuals to do. Maybe there are tons of things for *new* casuals to do, but those of us who were playing this game at least for an expansion already completed most of non-raid things quite some time ago, and the non-raid things that they add in patches last for several weeks at most every time.

    I'd really like Blizzard to add something for casuals that would last. I put one idea in this thread and can put more. I don't think it would be a question of development time even, compared to raids everything is kinda small in that respect...
    Last edited by rda; 2013-11-03 at 06:17 PM.

  18. #978
    It' hard to make something exciting and rewarding without making it challenging. And if Blizzard made something challenging again (cough cough pre nerf Cata heroics) then all you would get from "casuals" is "blizzard this is way to hard for us" etc etc.

    "Casuals" <---- whatever that means will never be satisfied. This game has become more and more casual friendly yet the "casuals" such as OP still complain.

  19. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    It' hard to make something exciting and rewarding without making it challenging. And if Blizzard made something challenging again (cough cough pre nerf Cata heroics) then all you would get from "casuals" is "blizzard this is way to hard for us" etc etc.
    I think you generalize too much. I am a casual and I never objected to Cata heroics, for example. Not to say that most of the QQ with Cata heroics came from LFG groups, and challenging and lasting content for casuals might not involve LFG or groups for that matter at all, it could be solo content.

  20. #980
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    "Casuals" <---- whatever that means will never be satisfied. This game has become more and more casual friendly yet the "casuals" such as OP still complain.
    Very Much so.

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