1. #1081
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kourvith View Post
    Because making short time commitment as meaningful as long time commitment would simply kill any purpose to do the latter. Why Blizzard has chosen long time commitment ? Because it's an RPG, and RPGs are based on empirical character evolution, which emphasizes on time. It's as simple as that
    Who said anything about making a short time commitment? Re-read this and one or two previous pages, those who want a non-raid progression path talk about an equally long time commitment as for raiders (really, it's in their best interests - they want the game to last at least as long as it lasts for raiders), the distinction is that the non-raid content would be solo or small-group based (with equal rewards as for raids, yes).

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoNamedPride View Post
    How can it be ignoring RL when you have NOTHING ELSE TO ...
    Stupid pictures and yelling doesn't help to deliver your point, by the way.

  2. #1082
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Or they should fix the game, because the solutions you offer aren't a possibility.
    Then PUG normal/heroic raids. You get the challange, the reward and you don't even need to follow the raiding schedule of a guild.

  3. #1083
    High Overlord titcch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Okay, I got half a day off, let me -meaningfuly- play WoW for 4 hours this morning."[/I]
    If it's true about you being in a top guild, why are you even saying "Why should organisational effort be rewarded?", I think your signature sums you up quite perfectly. You should know most of all that it takes a lot of effort to do heroic raiding and be at the top leveling of raiding, we BARELY get any reward at all as it is... Do you think we care about the gear? We don't even care about the heroic mount rewards, it's all about the wow progress ranking at the end of the day.

    Heroic = Organised raiding
    Normal/Flex = Casual raiding, can be cleared with 1-2 hours per night of raiding
    LFR = Login anytime and afk through the content

    If you are not doing heroics then there is NO reason to be 580ilvl geared as you will never need it. You should only be as powerful as the raid content you are attempting to do, being able to kill mobs faster in the wild is no sense of "progression" either.

    I remember when I was full time at college and I was very casual in TBC, the only raid I could EVER think about doing was Karazhan - but I didn't whine, didn't need to post stuff on the forums, didn't feel entitled to be inside SWP with no effort, I had to take the time out to fight for my place in a SWP guild in the end and it was rewarding to do so.
    Last edited by titcch; 2013-11-04 at 11:51 AM.
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  4. #1084
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I used to be in your raidguild back when they still were world top #1-3, for over 4 years. :P

    4 years later. RL has priority and the game I've enjoyed for many years just seems unable to provide the type of content that would be suitable for me, someone that just wants to be able to be like: "Okay, I got half a day off, let me -meaningfuly- play WoW for 4 hours this morning."

    Why is it that if I'd want to make character progress that I should have to be online between 19:00 and 23:00 every week instead of just letting me progress when I've time instead?
    You seem to think loot is this larger than life thing and that is the foundation what makes heroic progression worth the time lost when in fact it is memorable and enjoyable because of the other people you can cheer and talk about it with. It is outrageous that you could even suggest something like a soloraid being equivalent to a proper raiding experience and just goes to show how little you really understand about this field.

    You also make your everyday life sound like some jack bauer 24 bullshit when in reality you just go to work, come home and figure out what the best way to spend your time would be and then you do it. Thread after thread, post after post you make it clear you genuinely aren't interested in the game and spend more time showering than playing the game yet for some reason you think its appropriate to come here and ramble on about your casual crusade and how content should be made for you.

    Give me a break.. If I'm totally honest, I hope this expansion caters and milks the casual playerbase for as much money as possible just to be able to safely create everything they have ever wanted making it as insanely hard as possible for the last expansion. This game is a ticking time bomb because the difference between a good and bad player is so insanely huge and the only good alternative is to go out with a bang and come out with an entirely new formula where everyone starts from zero and take into consideration what the last game failed at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Or they should fix the game, because the solutions you offer aren't a possibility.
    It's shit like this that pisses me off so much. For the last time, where there is a will - there is a way.
    Last edited by Strafir; 2013-11-04 at 12:03 PM.

  5. #1085
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    Quote Originally Posted by titcch View Post
    If you are not doing heroics then there is NO reason to be 580ilvl geared as you will never need it. You should only be as powerful as the raid content you are attempting to do, being able to kill mobs faster in the wild is no sense of "progression" either.
    But it could be.

    The Fel Reaver in Hellfire Peninsula is always the example I think of when talking about real dangers in the open world. You avoided him by hook or by crook back in the day, but taking out enemies such as that could be made into meaningful gameplay. The rares in Pandaria are also a step in this direction, if you think about it, and dungeon progression (if it comes in) would also require ever more powerful gear.

    This whole "only raiders need to gear up" argument needs to die in a fire. It's strangling more meaningful innovation and debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  6. #1086
    Quote Originally Posted by titcch View Post
    If it's true about you being in a top guild, why are you even saying "Why should organisational effort be rewarded?", I think your signature sums you up quite perfectly. You should know most of all that it takes a lot of effort to do heroic raiding and be at the top leveling of raiding, we BARELY get any reward at all as it is... Do you think we care about the gear? We don't even care about the heroic mount rewards, it's all about the wow progress ranking at the end of the day.

    Heroic = Organised raiding
    Normal/Flex = Casual raiding, can be cleared with 1-2 hours per night of raiding
    LFR = Login anytime and afk through the content

    If you are not doing heroics then there is NO reason to be 580ilvl geared as you will never need it. You should only be as powerful as the raid content you are attempting to do, being able to kill mobs faster in the wild is no sense of "progression" either.
    The thin people don't understand, and I'm glad you brought up, is that many raiders do it for fun, not to get gear. Gear is a means to an end. Te casuals on the other hand just wan that big item level.btey don't eat progression, nor do they care about hallenge. They have no use for the gear but want it because it is their form of progression since LFR and somewhat Flex don't really have a sense of progression compared to heroic or even normal. They want their gear to be something compared to raiders because they see gear as progression, not a tool.

    Why they care abou gear at all when they have already downed face roll Garrosh is beyond me, but they do.

  7. #1087
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    The thin people don't understand, and I'm glad you brought up, is that many raiders do it for fun, not to get gear. Gear is a means to an end. Te casuals on the other hand just wan that big item level.btey don't eat progression, nor do they care about hallenge. They have no use for the gear but want it because it is their form of progression since LFR and somewhat Flex don't really have a sense of progression compared to heroic or even normal. They want their gear to be something compared to raiders because they see gear as progression, not a tool.

    Why they care abou gear at all when they have already downed face roll Garrosh is beyond me, but they do.
    Ghostcrawler's view of this is that gear is a means to an end for everyone. Some people just have the excitement of acquiring it more than others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  8. #1088
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    But it could be.

    The Fel Reaver in Hellfire Peninsula is always the example I think of when talking about real dangers in the open world. You avoided him by hook or by crook back in the day, but taking out enemies such as that could be made into meaningful gameplay. The rares in Pandaria are also a step in this direction, if you think about it, and dungeon progression (if it comes in) would also require ever more powerful gear.

    This whole "only raiders need to gear up" argument needs to die in a fire. It's strangling more meaningful innovation and debate.
    Raiders use the gear to down new bosses. Non raiders use their gear to...stand around? Defend themselves when doing pet battles?

    You really think casuals want some challenging content to be solo play? Did they no whine enough when Timeless Isle can out an they had to DODGE stuff?

  9. #1089
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steppinrazor View Post
    Then PUG normal/heroic raids. You get the challange, the reward and you don't even need to follow the raiding schedule of a guild.
    No. :-)) You spend a clusterf**k of time enduring LFR getting entry gear, then another clusterf**k of time looking for folks who would like to PUG normal raids (not a lot of people do), then a couple more clusterf**ks of time wiping and handling the leaves and replacements, and then you get a couple of loot dramas, say "to hell with it" and stop the madness. You won't get to heroic raids this way, I guarantee you that.

    This is what raiding is, when it is not scheduled + DKP + whatever.

    It is understandable that Blizzard want everyone to raid, because raiding ties people to the game like no tomorrow. But a lot of people are quite tired of it, and in many cases just do not enjoy it. You can say: then leave, and that's fine, just remember that you are saying "then leave" to, quite possibly, the majority of the playerbase.

  10. #1090
    Do we need more content for "casuals" or more content for people who don't put any effort into the game?

    I know plenty of people who raid normal modes on a 1-2 schedule for only a couple of hours.
    There are people that clear the entire tier on HM that raid on a schedule like that as well.

    Can't commit to a schedule? Openraid. Pugs.
    Some guilds offer "bench" spots so people can fill in and the like. GDKP's are also still around on many realms.

    There is PLENTY to do in this game already that isn't raiding.
    I haven't raided since ToT but I'm still around dabbling in multiple aspects of the game.
    Hell; I'm about to make my first 2200 push after Blizzcon hopefully in PvP. I poke my nose into Flex raids when I'm comfortable enough to pug. Also seriously considering working on buffering my achievement points as much as I can on nights I'm not busy IRL.

    People need to stop asking for so much content for a group that literally will not go out of their way to do things.
    Open your eyes. More content is good but you're asking to cater to a group that doesn't care unless it's given to them on the dot.

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  11. #1091
    Why cant casuals raid normal, or even heroic? Really tell me. Play the game for 3 hours, 2 or 3 times a week? jesus
    That's very easy to explain. To really raid normal/heroic you need to be in a guild or raiding group. With this comes the need to play on every week on the same days at the same time. And thats the problem. My friends/family/job don't align to my raiding schedule. They just say: "Well if you can't come on tuesday we go alone." "When you want to watch the new film in the cinema, come with us or watch it alone." Sure once or twice they will change their plans. But not every week for months/years. And I didn't even mention my workshifts......go tell my boss that I can't work the late shift on tuesday and thursday.....good luck by surviving this.

    And then my kids. My wife meets her friends and I meet mine. So when one of us is out, the other watchs the kids. If I tell her you can't go on tuesday but hey on saturday I'm out....well.....I think you understand why normal/heroic is not such a "small" problem. It is not the few hours a week. It is the set in stone schedule you have to go.

  12. #1092
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Raiders use the gear to down new bosses. Non raiders use their gear to...stand around? Defend themselves when doing pet battles?

    You really think casuals want some challenging content to be solo play? Did they no whine enough when Timeless Isle can out an they had to DODGE stuff?
    Exactly, raiders use the gear to down raid bosses, and non-raiders would like to have some non-raid bosses to down as well. Same as raiders, non-raiders want their characters to get more and better gear and they want challenges matching that gear. Non-raid challenges. Correct.

    Yes, I really think casuals want some challenging content to be solo play. No, pointing to threads with whines regarding this or that does not disqualify that point of view. A poll would be better.

  13. #1093
    Bring in more 5man dungeons. bring in Dungeon tier sets and upgrade quests for said tier sets. Have Valor vendor open and requires 2.5k per item or something so players can grind the items from there or do LFR for similar items via RNG.

    Use the current JP/VP system inbetween patches so the old dungeon gear can become better same for LFR/other raid gear.


    On raid patches release a few dungeons with higher quality gear disable upgrade system. New dungeon tier set released.

    non raid patch enable upgrades and put the new dungeons and old dungeons on the same queue and upgrade all old dungeon loot to its 2/2 level by default.

    Also make it so professions get random recipe drops from dungeons AND have a special anvil/forge/lab etc that professions can use to make. Have these after the last boss so people who queue LFD for it get to the end boss and then use the place to do their crafting.

    Keep LFR the entire time too as its another tool for players to use for gearing their character.

  14. #1094
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Raiders use the gear to down new bosses. Non raiders use their gear to...stand around? Defend themselves when doing pet battles?

    You really think casuals want some challenging content to be solo play? Did they no whine enough when Timeless Isle can out an they had to DODGE stuff?
    Next time you quote me, all I ask is that you read what you're quoting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  15. #1095
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Exactly, raiders use the gear to down raid bosses, and non-raiders would like to have some non-raid bosses to down as well. Same as raiders, non-raiders want their characters to get more and better gear and they want challenges matching that gear. Non-raid challenges. Correct.

    Yes, I really think casuals want some challenging content to be solo play. No, pointing to threads with whines regarding this or that does not disqualify that point of view. A poll would be better.
    I agree with this one!

  16. #1096
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Exactly, raiders use the gear to down raid bosses, and non-raiders would like to have some non-raid bosses to down as well. Same as raiders, non-raiders want their characters to get more and better gear and they want challenges matching that gear. Non-raid challenges. Correct.

    Yes, I really think casuals want some challenging content to be solo play. No, pointing to threads with whines regarding this or that does not disqualify that point of view. A poll would be better.
    You just can't make this mob non instanced that anyone can just go try to kill solo that drops raid quality loot. Simply because everyone else will have the same idea that you have and not want to wait their turn to kill it. You'd just end up with a huge clusterfuck and an even worse experience than you have now. Besides even if they would instance it then what would be the point of making lfr? Nobody would use it and the ones that do won't like the 3 hour queues.

    Can also look at timeless isle which tried to tackle this problem by allowing anyone on their own schedule to kill random rares for chance at tokens to get better gear and upgrade it. I reckon people just got burned out on that one or once they got 535 that it wasn't good enough anymore because it served it's purpose?

    I guess Blizzard can spend more time trying to figure out how to appease a large diverse group of players that have different wants and needs. I guess now to keep these type of players they gotta give more and bigger rewards to keep them around to pay the bills? They can continue these experiments while alienating even more players that are already satisfied with the game and what it has to offer. I guess in the end turning wow into what is isn't to satisfy people that haven't moved on yet is what needs to be done now? Maybe nike will figure out how to make one shoe that fits everyone's foot and can change to look how anyone wants it to. They would sure make a lot more money.
    Last edited by Barnabas; 2013-11-04 at 12:58 PM.

  17. #1097
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    You just can't make this mob non instanced that anyone can just go try to kill solo that drops raid quality loot. Simply because everyone else will have the same idea that you have and not want to wait their turn to kill it. You'd just end up with a huge clusterfuck and an even worse experience than you have now. Besides even if they would instance it then what would be the point of making lfr? Nobody would use it and the ones that do won't like the 3 hour queues.
    Why not make it instanced? You know how archeology sites work? Why not do the same here? Not to mention that this is just the most literal interpretation of the idea of non-raid progression.

    If, after they provide a non-raid progression path, they find that noone uses LFR, so be it. That would just show that people didn't enjoy it and were running it for gear / because there was nothing else to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Can also look at timeless isle which tried to tackle this problem by allowing anyone on their own schedule to kill random rares for chance at tokens to get better gear and upgrade it. I reckon people just got burned out on that one or once they got 535 that it wasn't good enough anymore because it served it's purpose?
    Timeless Isle had several problems. The most important one - it didn't last. The gear was not on par with raiding at all (496 is nothing, 535 is less than even flexes, plus one-stat, plus not for all slots, plus no tier bonuses), and you did 80% of the "progression" in the first two weeks. If they made the Timeless Isle five times as large as it is now, and gave out normal-raid-level gear (might limit the drop rate to 10% until you get the first drop per week, 2% until the second drop, 0% after that, for example, or do something similar), it would have worked better. If they have also made rare spawns solo-bound (like the archeology sites again), and arranged it so that you'd get simpler bosses in the first weeks and progressively more complex bosses after you defeat the simpler ones, I think they would have had a winner for 5.4.
    Last edited by rda; 2013-11-04 at 01:13 PM.

  18. #1098
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    No. Challenging - yes, gives a reward equal to that of heroic raiding - yes, without the dedication - no. Nothing wrong with the dedication, just let that dedication be solo or small-group based.

    Re-read the thread, it has been laid out several times already. With variants of what Blizzard could do.
    Maybe they could... make a legendary that anyone could use, and the player could fly solo or simply join random groups to accomplish 95% of what needs to be done.

    And the reward from this would be BiS for anyone.

    This is a great idea, someone should present it.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  19. #1099
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Maybe they could... make a legendary that anyone could use, and the player could fly solo or simply join random groups to accomplish 95% of what needs to be done.

    And the reward from this would be BiS for anyone.

    This is a great idea, someone should present it.
    If you are saying that Blizzard are trying to take steps to provide casuals with the ability to progress gear-wise on their own schedule, I don't disagree. I just wish they really did that, and didn't use raids. Right now they are merely toying with the idea and are trying to lure people into raids for what is exactly one slot of gear (that is on par with that of heroic raiders, and only during the last half of the expansion). Well, that's the beginning, I guess...
    Last edited by rda; 2013-11-04 at 01:30 PM.

  20. #1100
    Quote Originally Posted by Redrun View Post
    Im just curious as to what people want? "we want change but we have no idea what kind." 5 mans and scenarios can only get you so far before you need to invent more time to get the better rewards. there are world bosses that give good stuff but ultimately this is a raiding game and if you want some char progression gonna have to put your toe into a raid of some sort. :\
    I think a 5 man heroic progression is perfectly doable, if there was enough demand for it.
    TBC had it by accident because there was such a wide variety in dungeon difficulty. IE Shattered Halls or Shadow Labyrinth were like a whole tier of difficulty above Heroic Mechanar or Slave Pens. Then Magister's Terrace to cap it off.
    Wrath had the release 5 mans, then ToTC, then the ICC 5 mans.
    Cata had the release 5 mans, ZA/ZG, then the sadly undertuned End Time dungeons.

    They have the advantage of being easier to organise with friends and not taking as long to complete as an LFR wing. The only downside is heroic raiders don't get much mileage out of them. But having said that, I'd done over 100 5 man heroics in Wrath, while also killing ever heroic raid boss in 25 man. And I had fun in both.

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