1. #1261
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Mid-Classic, I have interacted with lots of people, some raided some didn't, some pvped, some didn't..........but the ones who did neither do you know what they didn't do?
    What millions of them didn't do was keep paying for the game, and Blizzard decided they didn't like that much. Nobody invaded Blizzard HQ and made them nerf the game at gunpoint. I love this insane fantasy of yours that retards shitposting on the forums (rather than their money) can somehow force the hand of a publicly-traded multibillion dollar company. It certainly explains your own approach.

    Anyway, you're a lost cause, so whatever. Casuals have all the numbers and money, and will only be paid more attention to as time goes by. What are you going to do about it besides cry? Oh yeah, nothing.

  2. #1262
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Entitlement is proportional to how small your demographic segment is. Someone who wants something for large numbers of people is less entitled than someone who wants it for small numbers.
    You are not entitled if you already earned it, only if you want it and feel you are, well, entitled to have it for less or nothing at all.







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  3. #1263
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I am not talking about means to stop everyone from bitching. I am talking about a non-raid progression. People need one.
    In your scenario it would have heroic raid gear but it would HAVE to be easy mode because the people that do it would bitch and moan about how hard it is, how much time it takes, and it can't be queued for......again.....look at Crapaclysm heroics or even LFR with all the mass amounts of nerfs to it, so it would be heroic raid gear for a shit load less effort and be consumed in MAYBE a month.
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  4. #1264
    The Lightbringer Seezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I guess that is your opinion, and it's not one I agree with. There's the faint hope that Blizzard will do better in providing proper end-game content for casual players in the future expansion, because admittedly Blizzard has been "trying hard" for the past few expansions now, but sadly not succeeding much.

    Honestly, personally I am convinced that Blizzard will do exactly that and will try to introduce a new major end-game feature for casuals in the next expansion. I'm very convinced about it, and if anything, this thread was started as more of a premonition towards such.

    I'm willing to bet my right arm on the fact that the next expansion will try very hard to bring exactly what is currently missing.
    Wait, blizz gave casuals LFR. They even made Flex to bridge to normals. And now you say "proper end game content for casuals"? Sorry bud. Blizz catered to ya. It ain't working. As much as you want to hold your breath, lay face down on the floor pounding your feet and fists against the ground, blizz gave you everything.

    Of course blizz is going to introduce major end game features for casuals. Like they've been doing the entire expac. Of course you're convinced of that. Because it's already happened. If you don't like that, then that's on you. And the game isn't for you. But there isn't anything more they can do for you. And they're learning that no matter how much they pander to people like you, it won't keep you from bitching, and it isn't keeping subscribers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    You tried too hard and now your post is shit. Never try too hard, the gamble isn't worth it.

  5. #1265
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
    What millions of them didn't do was keep paying for the game, and Blizzard decided they didn't like that much. Nobody invaded Blizzard HQ and made them nerf the game at gunpoint. I love this insane fantasy of yours that retards shitposting on the forums (rather than their money) can somehow force the hand of a publicly-traded multibillion dollar company. It certainly explains your own approach.

    Anyway, you're a lost cause, so whatever. Casuals have all the numbers and money, and will only be paid more attention to as time goes by. What are you going to do about it besides cry? Oh yeah, nothing.
    Actually believe it or not I have more friends on my realid that do nothing but pet battles and farm than do heroic raiding.
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  6. #1266
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyphnos View Post
    And you overlook as usual the very obvious point that the 18 hr a day tennis player and the casual player have access to the exact same equipment and playing fields. The rewards to the serious player are, in fact, external to the game. Your post sounds like the 18 hour a day player saying to the casual why do you need the same racket and shoes and balls that I have if you're only going to play 3 hrs a week instead of 18 hrs a day...
    By all means buy the same racket as me. No, wait my john maccaroni one of a kind limited edition signed racket was awarded to me for beating him...........................







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  7. #1267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odina View Post
    The point is valid however a group of people that are uniting to overcome a greater foe in an RPG should be rewared more than the solo hearo vanquishing say the ogre under the bridge causing the town to be scared. ... If it takes solo player 1 hour to kill something and a 25 man 1 hour to kill it then the reward should show that extra 24hours of personal time invested to get the reward.
    I don't agree with the first sentence. I am not sure I agree with the last either - if someone puts 1 hour into killing a boss, it was their 1 hour, regardless of whether others put that hour in or not. 25 people will get several drops from a boss, but 1 guy out of these 25 will only get a chance of a drop - this chance should be the same as with a solo challenge of the same complexity.

    So, again, in a 25-man raid, you have a chance at getting a drop. In a solo challenge of the same complexity (where, you, for example, have to put the same DPS and avoid the same types of obstacles, etc), you should have the same chance at getting a drop.

    ---
    Added later:

    Perhaps it would be simpler to say that a group of 25 already gets more reward than one guy out of that group of 25, and I wish the soloing guy to get the same reward as that one out of 25 gets.
    Last edited by rda; 2013-11-04 at 08:10 PM.

  8. #1268
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I keep hearing "what's the solution? tell me, you aren't being constructive". Newsflash: there have been several suggestions made even in this thread and more in others, by me and by other posters. I can make more suggestions, no problem, the problem is that after I or someone else make these suggestions, a page later people yell "what's the solution? tell me" again.

    Read. The. Threads.
    Ok, so what he probably really meant was make some SMART suggestions that do not involve either making the game a solo play kingdom for you and only you, or include welfare to the extent where no effort whatsoever is involved.







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  9. #1269
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    Although I am a player that thoroughly enjoys raiding I can see the point brought forward here. There is easy to access content for players with unreliable schedules but there is nothing exciting/difficult for them. Yes they could find a way to raid, but that isn't always something players want to do. I know players who have a rotation schedule at work where they work 3 on 2 off and each time they work its at a different time. (1am - 9.30 am, 9am - 5.30 pm, 5 pm - 1.30 am) (they work together) They can't really dedicate to a raiding group as their schedule is different every week, so they pug when they can but really just waste time doing achieves/farming without any real purpose.

    My suggestion to fix this (I just came up with this on the spot reading this post):
    Epic Quests!
    Epic quests are a set of weekly quests a player can participate in, that will tell a short story, resulting in rewards based on your level of completion class/spec specific rewards. My idea here would be to make them timetravel based events, where players go back in time and participate an event from warcraft lore. As they progress through they receive rewards that upgrade as you hand in each level. Epic quests will basically read: "Travel back in time and complete the events of X." You will also receive the starting quest for a long chain. One epic quest will be available each week, you will have to complete any current epic quest to pick up the next one.

    During these quests there will be spawnpoints of current resources (ghost iron etc) pet battles to be had, etc.

    For instance:
    Assault on blackrock spire

    Quest 1:
    Assist Milan with inspection of the troops prior to the battle.
    (Basic quest inspecting missing elements etc, smack troops into line) Rewards some gold.

    Upon completion this will set a chain of quests that goes through the basic story of Milan.
    Freeing southern Lordaeron from the orcs, embarking to "northern azeroth" (wetlands), Zul'Dare, Tol Barad, Dun Algaz all the good stuff from warcraft 2 human story.

    Upon the completion of major parts of the events you will start getting armor rewards that will upgrade as the events take place. One of the early quests will require handing in a piece of armor, the quest will send you to an armory, storeroom, holding cell, etc, that you can pick up a piece. The remaining quests will upgrades this item into something that's looks will be related to your class/faction/chosen role. Upon completion of all of the epic quests you will have a full set of armor that relates to your class.

    Progression of items:
    Worn ______ a grey quality item that looks like a battered version of the final item.
    Repaired _____ a white quality item.
    Enchanted _____ green.

    This will upgrade up to an epic quality BOA item with item level equivalent to the current flex, but the difficulty of the quests will increase at a rate to make it interesting and challenging, but still do-able for all classes. Upon accepting the first quest you select healer, tank, damage. The quest will be tuned to accommodate your choice like proving grounds. This will be how newly leveled characters can get their armor sets and get ready for raiding, by participating in heroics as well as following these quest chains each week you can build up a get-ready-to-raid set while doing something interesting yet challenging.

    Edit:
    Completing the epic quests will also give a token, upon gaining so many of these you can upgrade your epic item up a tier of item levels. These tokens reset each raid patch returning gold. This will allow players to build these sets up to top end gear with time (a long time)
    Last edited by Anteries; 2013-11-04 at 08:14 PM.

  10. #1270
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    What's vague about soloable bosses?

    Nothing. However you realize that for reward to equal effort a solo boss would hand you a lollipop, pat you on the ass, and say "good game".







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  11. #1271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    In your scenario it would have heroic raid gear but it would HAVE to be easy mode because the people that do it would bitch and moan about how hard it is, how much time it takes, and it can't be queued for......again.....look at Crapaclysm heroics or even LFR with all the mass amounts of nerfs to it, so it would be heroic raid gear for a shit load less effort and be consumed in MAYBE a month.
    Disagree with "would HAVE to be easy because ... people ... would bitch".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Nothing. However you realize that for reward to equal effort a solo boss would hand you a lollipop, pat you on the ass, and say "good game".
    No, that entirely depends on the design of a particular solo boss.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Ok, so what he probably really meant was make some SMART suggestions that do not involve either making the game a solo play kingdom for you and only you, or include welfare to the extent where no effort whatsoever is involved.
    LOL, OK, I see that arguing further is just a waste, since you are on the brink of namecalling.

  12. #1272
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Look, this argument has been answered more than once in this thread as well. I will repeat the answer this time, but you should really read the thread.

    The answer is: I want tier set bonuses to make my character able to take more powerful challenges, and I want these more powerful challenges to overcome, too. Just non-raid ones. A progression, you know. Just a non-raid progression.

    The answer is: I want tier set bonuses to make my character look just like a raider who put in the effort, and I want challenges that I can easily overcome to get them. Just non-raid ones. A progression in my own mind, you know. Just not a progression that presents rewards equivalent to the effort I expend.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Seriously just bring back dungeon tier sets sure make them 5 set like raid sets are now. But make it upgradable through a good quest line (unlocked at say 2 piece/4 piece)

    That along with some profession recipes dropping in dungeons along with forges/anvils/alchemy labs used for specific crafting items that are only located in dungeons would be a pretty cool change. Just make those crafting areas after the end boss in a dungeon so the person who wants it completes the dungeon in LFD first.
    Or like he said bring back the large set bonuses so you can mix and match.







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  13. #1273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteries View Post
    My suggestion to fix this (I just came up with this on the spot reading this post):
    Epic Quests!
    Epic quests are a set of weekly quests a player can participate in, that will tell a short story, resulting in rewards based on your level of completion class/spec specific rewards. My idea here would be to make them timetravel based events, where players go back in time and participate an event from warcraft lore. As they progress through they receive rewards that upgrade as you hand in each level. Epic quests will basically read: "Travel back in time and complete the events of X." You will also receive the starting quest for a long chain. One epic quest will be available each week, you will have to complete any current epic quest to pick up the next one.
    Good idea, by the way.

  14. #1274
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    The answer is: I want tier set bonuses to make my character look just like a raider who put in the effort, and I want challenges that I can easily overcome to get them. Just non-raid ones. A progression in my own mind, you know. Just not a progression that presents rewards equivalent to the effort I expend.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Or like he said bring back the large set bonuses so you can mix and match.
    i'd be cool with that if it was 8 parts but only had a 5 set bonus i'd be MORE than happy with that. I just want to see dungeon sets

  15. #1275
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Good idea, by the way.
    Agreed, as long as it offers LFR quality loot or lower
    A living Warlock = a dead everyone else

  16. #1276
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    It is amazing that people continue flaunting their laundry lists of "quests, instances, heroic instances, scenarios, heroic scenarios, pet battles, bla bla bla" when in reality, once you subtract raids (which people in this thread are specifically saying they DON'T want) and PVP (which is a special case), everything else is - surprise! - likely DONE, if you have been playing for at least a year or two. Yes, done. Perhaps there are a couple of hard grinds you didn't yet get, but that's it, the juicy 90% of everything is done.
    cool. lets have every casual player who claims they are done and bored link their above 20k achievement points.







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  17. #1277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scathbais View Post
    Agreed, as long as it offers LFR quality loot or lower
    If the rewards are LFR quality or lower, that wouldn't solve the problem, so no.

  18. #1278
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I am not talking about means to stop everyone from bitching. I am talking about a non-raid progression. People need one.
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Yes, and? I said it wasn't covering all slots? Check. I said it was of a smaller ilvl than raiding gear? Check (heroic raids dropped 535, plus there were Thunderforged items). What's wrong?
    RDA, I went and read your posts on wanting full raid gear, including tier without raiding. It will never happen and there is no evidence that it is a key driver of subscription losses. Recall that subs dropped the most in Cata with the introduction of challenging heroics. I believe people got frustrated with the difficulty and jumped ship. Also a mature game with a maturing audience means that players age out. As Blizzard stated a while back, new subs are no longer covering the drop subs.

    Blizzard is not going to give you a full set of raid level gear for non-raid activity. Let's say we gave everyone full heroic gear just for logging in and doing some quests, you will have God-mode. Players will not be motivated to do anything because they will already have every possible reward. If you really want to see a game die quickly, give them no incentive to play. Loot is the goal; it is the reward for overcoming the obstacles Blizzard throws at us. It is payday at the end of the week. It is the blowjob at the end of that horrible chick-flick your girlfriend forced you to watch.

    And in case you forgot, Blizzard has provided a lot of non-raid content. You may not like what they added, but they added it:

    1) Pet collecting, pet battles, and pet pvp. I happen to love this one.
    2) Challenging world elites: for example Warbringers. A great way to make gold and farm for mounts.
    3) Transmog and soloable old raid content. You are here for the gear, possible mount drops, crafting mats, etc.
    4) Brawler's Guild -- i'm still stuck at rank 8.
    5) Timeless Isles is a great place to gear up alts, grind out that exalted mount, get interesting fun drops from rare elites, farm mount from Huolon, do some pvp for the blood coin mount/pet.
    6) LFR is an easy way to get tier gear and actually participate in killing Garrosh without the need for organized raiding.
    7) Scenarios and Heroic Scenarios
    8) Flex, if you are good enough to raid but don't have the time for organized raiding.

    I don't know; if none of these things can keep you busy and you have no desire to raid, maybe you need to find a new game? If all you want is raid quality-gear, without raiding, you are going to be disappointed.
    A living Warlock = a dead everyone else

  19. #1279
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    cool. lets have every casual player who claims they are done and bored link their above 20k achievement points.
    If you cut off achievement points for unsoloable raids, it would be much less than 20k.

  20. #1280
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Good idea, by the way.
    Thanks! I just submitted it to the wow forums to try and get some attention drawn to it:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...65606?page=1#0

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