1. #2181
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    In other words, so many people are willing to focus on LFR and give up mounts, achievements, and tons of item levels just to not have to be in a raiding guild, that you want Blizzard to remove the alternative so they're forced to.
    Yes. Its almost like mounts, achievements and item levels aren't a particularly attractive reward compared to actually seeing the bosses.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Snorkles View Post
    I've no idea what the masses enjoy about WoW, I'm not them. I imagine it varies massively between each player. But, at it's peak of what, 12million subs? How many of them were raiding? 10%? 5%? less? I honestly can't remember, I vaguely remember GC saying it was miniscule (like, 2% enter SWP when it was current or something like that). Either way, if 98% of the games subscribers aren't taking part in a particular activity a game has to offer, it's safe to say that is not what makes people want to play that game.
    2% entering SWP is not 2% raiding. It was akin to the heroic raids of the today. But Karazhan was massively popular. I'd figure 5-10% got to see Karazhan, at least. Wowjutsu has 90k guilds clearing it during TBC, plus there would be all the pug raids. That's pretty good for a game with a lot of different niches.

  2. #2182
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    2% entering SWP is not 2% raiding. It was akin to the heroic raids of the today. But Karazhan was massively popular. I'd figure 5-10% got to see Karazhan, at least. Wowjutsu has 90k guilds clearing it during TBC, plus there would be all the pug raids. That's pretty good for a game with a lot of different niches.
    90k guilds clearing Karazhan would mean that alot more than 5-10% of playerbase got to see the raid. Honestly, i dont know single person who was playing back then and never stepped into Kara.

  3. #2183
    Quote Originally Posted by Shil3n View Post
    90k guilds clearing Karazhan would mean that alot more than 5-10% of playerbase got to see the raid. Honestly, i dont know single person who was playing back then and never stepped into Kara.
    According to Blizzard a majority of subscribers back then didn't even reach level 70. And I believe that even a while ago they claimed that only ~40% of the subscribers actually purchased Mists of Pandaria. So I'm assuming that back then there was a majority that didn't buy the TBC expac either.
    Maddest of them all.

  4. #2184
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    According to Blizzard a majority of subscribers back then didn't even reach level 70. And I believe that even a while ago they claimed that only ~40% of the subscribers actually purchased Mists of Pandaria. So I'm assuming that back then there was a majority that didn't buy the TBC expac either.
    No doubt there were many who didnt make it to max level (and im not sure if we should even consider those people when the thread is about casual endgame as that in itself suggest reaching max level) but just going by the numbers, 90k guilds means millions of people, especially when you consider that coming from vanilla 40M raids, most guilds had a lot of members and 10 man guilds were quite rare.

  5. #2185
    Quote Originally Posted by Shil3n View Post
    10 man guilds were quite rare.
    Non-existing is better term.

  6. #2186
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    They just stated their development team is bigger than ever following Titan team being reassigned to other projects. They should go back to a model where there is different content for different play styles, instead of one small set of content with 4 modes.

    I was a casual in Vanilla and did organized raiding from TBC to mid Cata before quitting. If I were to come back to the game it would be as a casual. However, WoW has no interesting casual content at all. LFR is the most repulsive idea I've ever heard, it's down right insulting. As a casual I would want a vanilla style casual experience where I can have fun leveling, questing, exploring and doing 5 mans. Back then the game had depth, it offered a great casual experience while still offering a hardcore raiding experience (and everything in between). Today WoW is shallow beyond belief, just one small set of content that everyone is pushed through on Blizzard's patch schedule. Why can't they give me a World of Warcraft again?
    Different play styles? Which play styles are you referring to? I have been around since pretty much day 1 of WoW and all I've ever know was questing to level up with the occasional dungeon here and there to eventually hit max level and start the tedious journey of readying myself up for raiding or proper PvP. The "casuals" in vanilla were people who either: didn't level up or achieve the requirements to raid and a few who logged in for an hour or so to mess about and then log off for another week or two. The game has even more depth now by the very definition of it being the 4th expansion - "Casuals" EXACTLY such as yourself are the ones who nagged and begged and threw all your toys outside the cot to make things "easier" and more "accessible" and now that they've done so, you want it back the way it was?

    The quests are the same, story lines are following the same rules and so is pretty much everything else - if you want to use MoP as a scapegoat, rather blame the players for being TOO hasty when progressing through the levels. If you want more storyline, do what you did in vanilla - read each quest and follow each questline attentively and you'll realize just how much attention to detail has ACTUALLY been put in.

    LFR is perfectly fine in its entirety. Players who aren't "skilled" enough or don't have the time or patience to do normal or heroic raiding are given the opportunity to go through an ENTIRE raid (cinematics, quests and loot included) without having to put in as much effort as the other options. I can't see what Blizzard could possibly do more to keep you happy? You have easier raids, more quests, a bigger storyline, more PvP, more scenarios, more classes, more spells with the added benefit of ALL the aforementioned being INSANELY user friendly and easy to use.

  7. #2187
    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    Different play styles? Which play styles are you referring to? I have been around since pretty much day 1 of WoW and all I've ever know was questing to level up with the occasional dungeon here and there to eventually hit max level and start the tedious journey of readying myself up for raiding or proper PvP. The "casuals" in vanilla were people who either: didn't level up or achieve the requirements to raid and a few who logged in for an hour or so to mess about and then log off for another week or two. The game has even more depth now by the very definition of it being the 4th expansion - "Casuals" EXACTLY such as yourself are the ones who nagged and begged and threw all your toys outside the cot to make things "easier" and more "accessible" and now that they've done so, you want it back the way it was?

    The quests are the same, story lines are following the same rules and so is pretty much everything else - if you want to use MoP as a scapegoat, rather blame the players for being TOO hasty when progressing through the levels. If you want more storyline, do what you did in vanilla - read each quest and follow each questline attentively and you'll realize just how much attention to detail has ACTUALLY been put in.

    LFR is perfectly fine in its entirety. Players who aren't "skilled" enough or don't have the time or patience to do normal or heroic raiding are given the opportunity to go through an ENTIRE raid (cinematics, quests and loot included) without having to put in as much effort as the other options. I can't see what Blizzard could possibly do more to keep you happy? You have easier raids, more quests, a bigger storyline, more PvP, more scenarios, more classes, more spells with the added benefit of ALL the aforementioned being INSANELY user friendly and easy to use.
    You need to stop trying to answer the question of 'What to give players who don't want to raid?' The answer of 'Easier access to raids'. That's not what's being asked for here.

  8. #2188
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    You need to stop trying to answer the question of 'What to give players who don't want to raid?' The answer of 'Easier access to raids'. That's not what's being asked for here.
    As with your reply and many other in this thread - None of you have a clue what you're actually asking for. Every solution, every option and every alternative path has an apparent flaw and is never good enough. Stop blaming the game because "you" don't enjoy it and just go somewhere else, after all, you wouldn't take a bite off of a lemon then get pissed off because it's sour now would you? So don't do it to World of Wacraft.

  9. #2189
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Thank you. And exactly my point. Even if the people shouting for welfare epics are currently only meaning normal mode gear once that is opened up more liberally they will then set their eyes on the real shinys.
    Slippery slope? We're talking about a system that's been in the game since TBC's Badges of Justice - it was only ever a catch up mechanic and never got slippier than that in all the years since then.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    As with your reply and many other in this thread - None of you have a clue what you're actually asking for. Every solution, every option and every alternative path has an apparent flaw and is never good enough. Stop blaming the game because "you" don't enjoy it and just go somewhere else, after all, you wouldn't take a bite off of a lemon then get pissed off because it's sour now would you? So don't do it to World of Wacraft.
    You're trying to tell me what I enjoy? Thanks for that. I happen to enjoy 25H raiding, apparently I've also been told that's all I enjoy.

    If you go back to my other replies, I spelled out exactly what I've asked for which is more 5 man Heroics and some Valour gear somewhere either at LFR or Flex level, or maybe somewhere in between.

    I'd also ask for Heroic 5 mans for pre-made groups in the same model of Heroic Scenarios that offer improved loot somewhere maybe 6 levels below LFR.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-11-07 at 09:54 AM.

  10. #2190
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    Non-existing is better term.
    I'm in 5 man guild. 3 of those dont play. HA!
    CLosing on guild lvl 14, cmon! XD

  11. #2191
    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    Different play styles? Which play styles are you referring to? I have been around since pretty much day 1 of WoW and all I've ever know was questing to level up with the occasional dungeon here and there to eventually hit max level and start the tedious journey of readying myself up for raiding or proper PvP.
    Just because you can't see past your own play style, doesn't mean there isn't a wide variety out there. My play style in vanilla was completely different, for example. I mainly did 5 mans, because that's what I enjoyed. For the vast majority of vanilla I wasn't even lvl 60. It was a perfectly viable play style because there was a wide range of different 5 mans, ranging from winged SM to epic BRD.

    "Casuals" EXACTLY such as yourself are the ones who nagged and begged and threw all your toys outside the cot to make things "easier" and more "accessible" and now that they've done so, you want it back the way it was?
    Utter bullshit. Stop making assumptions about other people. I have not once nagged or begged for easier or accessible content. In fact I've stated the exact opposite, I was perfectly happy in vanilla because it had enough depth to fill my casual play hours with 5 man content. The fact that some other people were doing raids was never a problem for me. Now they're going to remove 5 mans completely, and since WotLK they've been boring 20 minute zergs to fit the LFD model. The depth of 5-man content was lost from WoW, because Blizzard decided it's cheaper to just push casuals into the raid instances so they don't have to build as much content (yet continue to charge the same monthly fee for less content).

    if you want to use MoP as a scapegoat, rather blame the players for being TOO hasty when progressing through the levels.
    The rate of progress is governed entirely by Blizzard's game design. The whole problem is that everything is now geared to push people into the current patch's raid as fast as possible, and then through that raid before the next patch. There's no depth anymore, the game is not designed in a way where a casual could have an enjoyable experience spending most of their play time below the level cap like I did in vanilla.

    LFR is perfectly fine in its entirety.
    For you. For me personally it's one of the reasons why I would not even consider getting back into the game right now. Not as a casual and not as a raider.
    Last edited by LeperHerring; 2013-11-07 at 09:58 AM.

  12. #2192
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    You're trying to tell me what I enjoy? Thanks for that. I happen to enjoy 25H raiding, apparently I've also been told that's all I enjoy.

    If you go back to my other replies, I spelled out exactly what I've asked for which is more 5 man Heroics and some Valour gear somewhere either at LFR or Flex level, or maybe somewhere in between.
    You'd notice the "you" in inverted commas as to a referral or generalization to the people currently complaining in this thread, pay attention (I didn't try and outline you or what you currently enjoy but used your post as an example). Having gear in between LFR and Flex? More valor gear? You're obviously kidding and not being serious at all (I hope) - next stop, gear in between the ALREADY in-between LFR & Flex gear, so you can have question gear, dungeon gear, heroic dungeon gear, valor gear, LFR gear, in-between gear, flex gear, normal gear, heroic gear and finally legendary gear? More heroics in terms of sheer amount? Or more heroics in terms of difficulty or quest-line based? Personally I feel Blizzard should ignore the people complaining about everything and focus on keeping the long-term and newly-addicted and somewhat "hardcore" players happy (Once again, MY opinion).

  13. #2193
    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    You'd notice the "you" in inverted commas as to a referral or generalization to the people currently complaining in this thread, pay attention (I didn't try and outline you or what you currently enjoy but used your post as an example). Having gear in between LFR and Flex? More valor gear? You're obviously kidding and not being serious at all (I hope) - next stop, gear in between the ALREADY in-between LFR & Flex gear, so you can have question gear, dungeon gear, heroic dungeon gear, valor gear, LFR gear, in-between gear, flex gear, normal gear, heroic gear and finally legendary gear? More heroics in terms of sheer amount? Or more heroics in terms of difficulty or quest-line based? Personally I feel Blizzard should ignore the people complaining about everything and focus on keeping the long-term and newly-addicted and somewhat "hardcore" players happy (Once again, MY opinion).
    Well you quoted me, there must be a reason for that.

    And yeah, what's wrong with multiple means of reaching a certain average item level, if that level is capped below Normal raid difficulty? It's a decent incentive toward character power progression through varied means. They said they want players to see more than just a small focused part of the content, and yet the SoO raiding model is very much forcing that due to the lack of up-to-date alternatives.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-11-07 at 10:10 AM.

  14. #2194
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Just because you can't see past your own play style, doesn't mean there isn't a wide variety out there. My play style in vanilla was completely different, for example. I mainly did 5 mans, because that's what I enjoyed. For the vast majority of vanilla I wasn't even lvl 60. It was a perfectly viable play style because there was a wide range of different 5 mans, ranging from winged SM to epic BRD.
    So did 90% of players back then - WoW being a newborn child back then, had INSANE requirements due to difficulty and no previous grounds to go from. It seems like you're basically feeling an overwhelming sense of nostalgia of "something great, that once was.". There is just as much content out now as back then (even more if you add all the expansions up vs original) but the newly found "casual" player has nagged for it to be easier and more accessible thus destroying that very "viable" play style you're referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Utter bullshit. Stop making assumptions about other people. I have not once nagged or begged for easier or accessible content. In fact I've stated the exact opposite, I was perfectly happy in vanilla because it had enough depth to fill my casual play hours with 5 man content. The fact that some other people were doing raids was never a problem for me. Now they're going to remove 5 mans completely, and since WotLK they've been boring 20 minute zergs to fit the LFD model. The depth of 5-man content was lost from WoW, because Blizzard decided it's cheaper to just push casuals into the raid instances so they don't have to build as much content (yet continue to charge the same monthly fee for less content).
    So on the one hand, we have casuals: wanting more for less i.e. more gear, more loot, more dungeons, more raids with the added benefit of it being WAY easier. On the other hand, we now have players such as yourself: wanting longer and more difficult RP, more focused storyline and less forced raiding. Added to these two: You have PvP players who couldn't give a lesser fuck about PvE or raids and then HC raiders who couldn't give a fuck about PvP or the RP of the game.

    Do you see what an impossible task Blizzard has trying to keep everyone happy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Well you quoted me, there must be a reason for that.

    And yeah, what's wrong with multiple means of reaching a certain average item level, if that level is capped below Normal raid difficulty? It's a decent incentive toward character power progression through varied means. They said they want players to see more than just a small focused part of the content, and yet the SoO raiding model is very much forcing that due to the lack of up-to-date alternatives.
    Time Isle. 30minutes and you've achieved this "inbetween" gear you've been asking for whilst in putting almost ZERO effort.

    P.S. I quote everyone's post I reply to, just to make it easier for the reader to identify who I'm replying towards.
    Last edited by sQish; 2013-11-07 at 10:15 AM.

  15. #2195
    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    So did 90% of players back then - WoW being a newborn child back then, had INSANE requirements due to difficulty and no previous grounds to go from. It seems like you're basically feeling an overwhelming sense of nostalgia of "something great, that once was.". There is just as much content out now as back then (even more if you add all the expansions up vs original) but the newly found "casual" player has nagged for it to be easier and more accessible thus destroying that very "viable" play style you're referring to.



    So on the one hand, we have casuals: wanting more for less i.e. more gear, more loot, more dungeons, more raids with the added benefit of it being WAY easier. On the other hand, we now have players such as yourself: wanting longer and more difficult RP, more focused storyline and less forced raiding. Added to these two: You have PvP players who couldn't give a lesser fuck about PvE or raids and then HC raiders who couldn't give a fuck about PvP or the RP of the game.

    Do you see what an impossible task Blizzard has trying to keep everyone happy?



    Time Isle. 30minutes and you've achieved this "inbetween" gear you've been asking for whilst in putting almost ZERO effort.

    P.S. I quote everyone's post I reply to, just to make it easier for the reader to identify who I'm replying towards.
    I think everyone knows blizzard has a had task.

    What is clear though is that 5mans got the short end of the stick this expansion. We could certainly do with more 5man dungeons for sure. I think they have said or alluded to the idea of bringing in a lot more 5man dungeon content.

  16. #2196
    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    Do you see what an impossible task Blizzard has trying to keep everyone happy?
    No it's not. Have a separate dev team building separate content for each type of player. Problem solved. That's the strength of having a huge sub base, you can afford to do it, you don't have to focus everything towards the (real or imagined) "majority".

  17. #2197
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    No it's not. Have a separate dev team building separate content for each type of player. Problem solved. That's the strength of having a huge sub base, you can afford to do it, you don't have to focus everything towards the (real or imagined) "majority".
    I take it you have experience in running a multi-billion dollar company? Yes, they have quite a large amount of subscribers but people don't fully realize JUST how expensive it is to create new DLC's/expansions/addons etc. Even with a separate team, you'd still be stepping on someone's toes and eventually end up right back at the start. You shouldn't think so poorly of Blizzard or their developers - if they weren't the best of the best, they wouldn't currently be running the world's largest MMO-RPG.
    Last edited by sQish; 2013-11-07 at 10:27 AM.

  18. #2198
    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    I take it you have experience in running a multi-billion dollar company?
    Do you?

    Yes, they have quite a large amount of subscribers but people don't fully realize JUST how expensive it is to create new DLC's/expansions/addons etc.
    I suggest you take a peek at http://investor.activision.com, there you can see exactly how much they spend on development and how much money they make.

  19. #2199
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Do you?
    I'm not the one trying to tell them what to do or how to do it the way you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    I suggest you take a peek at http://investor.activision.com, there you can see exactly how much they spend on development and how much money they make.
    Take a look at the expenditures and net income(loss) for quarter 3 2013 and realize what a SUBSTANTIAL loss they're still taking trying to make the game better for people such as yourself (just in case you can't find it, "80,5%" of their total earnings are put back into keeping Blizzard alive). In future, don't refer to accounting sheets if you haven't the slightest of what they portray.

  20. #2200
    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    Time Isle. 30minutes and you've achieved this "inbetween" gear you've been asking for whilst in putting almost ZERO effort.

    P.S. I quote everyone's post I reply to, just to make it easier for the reader to identify who I'm replying towards.
    Two things. Firstly, 30 mins might land some 496 pieces, which are pretty poor. I have significantly better than that already on 6 alts before the patch went live. There's no character progression from those.

    Secondly, the Burdens that offer 535s would take considerably longer, and aren't doing anything to address the lack of dungeon content. For that, I suppose Valor still counts from the same tired old Heroics that I've been doing for nearly 2 years, but again, they're 2 years old. Even the more recent scenarios are outdated by this point.

    You're stuck in the mindset that 'gearing up' content is just that, not that that gearing up content has been for nearly 10 years the endgame content for a significant proportion of the playerbase - not the raiding that you consider as the only valid content.

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