1. #2361
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    He was whining that loot was being awarded to someone who wasn't "working" as hard. RNG does the same thing, but as you pointed out, he never complained about RNG. That was my whole point. This game is not about fairness, merit, hard work, or economic justice. It's purely for entertainment purposes.
    There is a difference between RNG and someone who doesn't put in as much effort, RNG is gambling like the lottery where as no effort is like someone getting millions from the lottery without buying a ticket and someone who DID buy the ticket doesn't get it.

    Again........just stop.
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  2. #2362
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I did quit and I recently resubscribed because I wanted to complete the cloak quest. I just have to kill the Celestials now. After that I'll probably unsub again.
    Get oQueue if you are having trouble finding a celestials group. There are constantly premades doing them in prime time, you'll get all four down in few groups.

    (It's good for grouping for Ordos too, once you have the cloak.)
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  3. #2363
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    He was whining that loot was being awarded to someone who wasn't "working" as hard. RNG does the same thing, but as you pointed out, he never complained about RNG. That was my whole point. This game is not about fairness, merit, hard work, economic justice, or any of those other silly reasons players give for why casuals should be denied content and loot. It's purely for entertainment purposes.
    Casuals aren't denied content. They fail to take part in it, if you buy a movie you don't have time to watch its not the movies fault, nor is it the books fault if you don't have time to read it and its certainly not the games fault if you don't have time to play it.

    This isn't about fairness its about what You and I choose to do on our spare time.
    Last edited by Horizon; 2013-11-07 at 10:05 PM.

  4. #2364
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    When have games ever been fair? It's not fair that on my first AQ run ever the legendary dropped and I won the loot roll for it while many others who had been running it for years were left with nothing, but that's how the game works. To expect otherwise is ridiculous. Even real life isn't fair. If you continue to view loot as a means of promoting fairness I predict you'll be sorely disappointed.
    Are you kidding me? How far out of context are you going to take this?

    The game is fair or atleast fair enough as long as you don't make mistakes like playing with people who are out of your league and don't have similar goals.

  5. #2365
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Content that requires 3-4 hours for a group to complete is not "for the casual community." Maybe that's how Blizzard intended it, but their intentions went awry. I personally did not enjoy spending 3 hours in Grim Batol only to be booted right before the final boss because someone from three of the other members' guild had just logged on. That was not conducive to a pleasant casual experience. The problem with creating content for casuals is that Blizzard always makes it a 20-minute faceroll or a three-hour ordeal, but they never bother to look for the middle ground. If they had added the challenge without the two hours of trash, the all-or-nothing approach to rewards, and the disproportionate reward structure of early Cataclysm I think the content would have been much more successful. As it was, no one wanted to spend three hours in a dungeon for a shot at gear that was 13 ilevels lower than raid gear and awarded a fraction of the valor points that spending those same three hours in a raid would have netted you.
    I can't think of any point in Cataclysm's history where you'd have the choice between wiping for 3 hours in Grim Batol and cruising through a raid. You're not really comparing like with like here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    He was whining that loot was being awarded to someone who wasn't "working" as hard. RNG does the same thing, but as you pointed out, he never complained about RNG. That was my whole point. This game is not about fairness, merit, hard work, economic justice, or any of those other silly reasons players give for why casuals should be denied content and loot. It's purely for entertainment purposes.
    Rewarding people for being better players, playing longer or just plain being lucky is what the game is all about.

  6. #2366
    Go play Angry Birds if you want a "much more casual exciting endgame". Stop trying to ruin my MMO.

  7. #2367
    So now that you guys are done yelling at the one guy, what'd you think of the 'legendary' difficulty heroic idea? No one even said anything about it... I feel like with that idea they could get rid of LFR (the number of threads complaining how bad it is by casuals is getting exceedingly high lately) if they do this. I think it's a good idea and based on the way it got ignored, you guys probably do too.

  8. #2368
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Casuals aren't denied content. They fail to take part in it, if you buy a movie you don't have time to watch its not the movies fault, nor is it the books fault if you don't have time to read it and its certainly not the games fault if you don't have time to play it.

    This isn't about fairness its about what You and I choose to do on our spare time.
    Most people will not buy movies or books if they do not have time to watch or read them.

  9. #2369
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    PvP is struggling with over-work. They've tried too much, too quickly, none of the systems got time to bed in and, underneath it all, the core gameplay is absolutely knackered. It's not inviting for new players because of gear discrepancies, one-shot macros and never-ending chains of control.

    When you toss the highest number of keybinds in the game's history on top of all that, it's actually very casual unfriendly IMHO.
    lol keybinds do NOT make it casual unfriendly. Once again that's a matter of being bad vs being decent. Casual has nothing to do with keybinds etc. Keybinds can mean the difference between decent and amazing, but not a difference between decent and avg.

  10. #2370
    Quote Originally Posted by sith View Post
    Stop trying to ruin my MMO.
    I think someone needs to read the Terms of Service.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  11. #2371
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Casuals aren't denied content. They fail to take part in it, if you buy a movie you don't have time to watch its not the movies fault, nor is it the books fault if you don't have time to read it and its certainly not the games fault if you don't have time to play it.

    This isn't about fairness its about what You and I choose to do on our spare time.
    Books are for hardcores?

    Casuals would demand the book be written in "simple English" and have no more than 100 pages. So everyone can achieve and experience the content. Perhaps they would want summary of previous books in the series, so they can catch up easily. It is convenience after all. If everyone pays the same $15, why cater to hardcore bookworms? Then casuals would also hate the elitist bookworms who boast of having read the book and call them names on forums.

  12. #2372
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Yes, but ironically, there is much less content that advances your character in any meaningful way now as back then, and Blizzard keeps making changes to decrease the amount of that content further. Even without any heirlooms on I can't finish a given zone without having it go green on me. If I happen to run an instance or two in the interim it's guaranteed gray before I'm done. The content is somewhat enjoyable, but the nagging sense that you're hindering your character's progression by indulging in it is not. That's what new players and casual players are faced with. In WotLK I spent months working through the various zones and didn't hit level 80 until I was about half way through ICC. At that point I still had incentives to finish the zone because it contained lots of intriguing lore as well as relevant level 80 gear for newly dinged 80s. Fast forward to MoP, and I dinged 90 in less than a week about half way through the Klaxxi area. I finished up because I'm a completionist, not because I particularly cared to help out a bunch of hostile bug people, and I was rewarded with a bunch of dailies that would eventually give rewards if I were to repeatedly grind them out for three weeks or so. Do you not understand the difference between working through novel content for several months with the anticipation of a nice reward at the end and rushing through novel content in scant days only to be faced with the dread a repetitive months-long grind for your reward? In both cases you're taking months to get your reward, but in the latter case you're bored out of your mind the entire time.
    It seems all you are currently doing is bitching and nagging like a 10year old and not really coming up with any remote kind of idea about what you actually even want. You're complaining that questing is too easy now and that the storyline behind all the quests aren't good enough? If you don't like raiding then DON'T DO IT, if you don't like skipping zones, DON'T DO IT! If you love questing and following the storyline, then why is your level bothering you? If you enjoy it so much, skip the other content and keep on completing the quests throughout WoW (with the amount of quests in-game atm I can't see how you could ask for more). The exact same type of idiots such as yourself use to bitch back in Vanilla about things taking WAY too long and this is the result of it - You can't have it your way, so pack up or put on a smile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Every post I have seen nagging for ease and accessiblity has come from raiders who were frustrated with the time it was taking to level alts and/or prepare new guildies for raids. I have yet to see a post from an actual casual demanding accessibility to raids or that non-raid content be made easier. You can believe that if it makes you feel better, but I have yet to see a credible case for it.
    Are you sure you're your reading skills are in check mate? This very thread is the "example" you've been asking for. Tisk tisk tisk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Do you really think that's fun for casuals? Who gives a crap if loot is just handed out? It's still a repetitive 30 minutes of killing trash mobs with elite labels on them. If you're in a heavily populated area you can zerg through it easily. Maybe for you the point of the game is getting better loot. Getting better loot is not the same as progressing your character. Granted, it's a part of it, but you're still skipping over the fun portion of the process where you're working through new content and lore in anticipation of a reward.
    Just to remind you of the goal of ANY RTS or RPG is to enhance your character to the point of being able to defeat the final opponents in the game. Take Titan-quest for one - You follow a basic story line, you kill stuff, you get loot, you kill boss = GG. WoW provides the same basis but done 10000000000x better and you're complaining about little Timmy having to spend an hour of his life farming mobs (which he chooses to do) to be able to take on final boss and defeat the game? Skipping out WHAT? You have the very choice of following each and EVERY quest and still be able to level up whilst finishing zones if you choose to do so. I don't exactly know what game has EVER been designed in the way you're on about but I certainly wouldn't want to play it. You have the choice within WoW to do exactly as you ask yet you're blaming Blizzard for not forcing you to play the way you actually want.

    Lastly
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I did quit and I recently resubscribed because I wanted to complete the cloak quest. I just have to kill the Celestials now. After that I'll probably unsub again.
    You barely play the game and don't support Blizzard as much as us yet you think you're inclined to the game being changed towards your liking whilst we (permanently subscribed players) who currently enjoy the game should just suck it up? I would like to compare you to a player who does PvP and moans about classes being unbalanced - yet has never ranked higher than say 1500. Start playing the game properly and then come back here and share your input.

    This thread is the exact same as when it comes to people and the economy - Every person has some sort of solution they see as an obvious fix for it, yet have absolutely NO clue how the economy actually works. Blizzard is doing an extremely good job, if you are indifferent about it - No one can stop you from leaving, which you should.
    Last edited by sQish; 2013-11-08 at 05:05 AM.

  13. #2373
    Quote Originally Posted by Saif View Post
    Do any of the people who want casual content actually know what they want?

    I'm just curious, not trying to be a troll... what would be "casual friendly" content?

    Dungeons aren't a challenge, but Heroic Scenarios maybe? Challenge mode dungeons? Proving Grounds?

    What non-commitment based challenging, gear-rewarding game-play would you like to see?
    Pet battle dungeons!

    I'm pretty happy with the way things are right now TBH, MoP had so much casual content. Maybe expand a bit on existing systems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  14. #2374
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Pet battle dungeons!
    I just threw up a little in my mouth.

  15. #2375
    Mechagnome Deathray's Avatar
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    Maybe you should request some ideas instead of just complaining? ...maybe?
    Sweeter than yo mama's apple pie.

  16. #2376
    As a raider, and person who enjoys playing alts (not necessarily raiding on his alts) I can see where people come from when they want more casual friendly end-game stuff.

    I consider the Timeless Isle and Flex a great step in the right direction for casual players. It offers pretty generous Ilvl for just a little bit of farming, and fully upgraded you can jump right into Flex/Normal SoO. My only complaint is that it gets a little bit boring, but the best part is that it's not gated and you can do it at your own pace.

    Before the Timeless Isle and Flex I hardly played any of my alts at all, I really hated what they decided to do at the launch of MoP. I could grind reps by doing endless dailies on my shaman to get some 489's from rep, or run LFR. I used to go weeks without getting something from LFR, and dealing with the subpar playing and wipes really just made me hate playing my alts for a long time. I can imagine if I didn't have time to properly raid I would've quit the game too, and been super annoyed.

    I imagine that the Timeless Isle model and Flex should be pretty satisfying to casuals though, and if they're not... I wonder what people actually want when they say a more casual friendly end game? The main focus of this game is PvE, and to a lesser extent PvP. It's really hard to get away from that. In what other what can you even feel a sense of progression other than your characters power increasing? I'm genuinely interesting in the ideas some people could have for casual friendly endgame that doesn't involve raiding/pvping.

    As a general rule of thumb though, for me, when my alts are fun to play... I consider the game casual friendly.

  17. #2377
    Quote Originally Posted by scarson View Post
    Books are for hardcores?

    Casuals would demand the book be written in "simple English" and have no more than 100 pages. So everyone can achieve and experience the content. Perhaps they would want summary of previous books in the series, so they can catch up easily. It is convenience after all. If everyone pays the same $15, why cater to hardcore bookworms? Then casuals would also hate the elitist bookworms who boast of having read the book and call them names on forums.
    It's more like "They paid the same amount for the book, and they'd like to read it at their own pace". Which is probably true of even the most hardcore bookworms. They read at their pace, and they enjoy it as they'd like to enjoy it. By your argument, people who love TV shows should watch a season a day, and if they don't have the time for it, they should only get to see the first half of a season and no more.

  18. #2378
    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    So did 90% of players back then - WoW being a newborn child back then, had INSANE requirements due to difficulty and no previous grounds to go from. It seems like you're basically feeling an overwhelming sense of nostalgia of "something great, that once was.". There is just as much content out now as back then (even more if you add all the expansions up vs original) but the newly found "casual" player has nagged for it to be easier and more accessible thus destroying that very "viable" play style you're referring to.



    So on the one hand, we have casuals: wanting more for less i.e. more gear, more loot, more dungeons, more raids with the added benefit of it being WAY easier. On the other hand, we now have players such as yourself: wanting longer and more difficult RP, more focused storyline and less forced raiding. Added to these two: You have PvP players who couldn't give a lesser fuck about PvE or raids and then HC raiders who couldn't give a fuck about PvP or the RP of the game.

    Do you see what an impossible task Blizzard has trying to keep everyone happy?



    Time Isle. 30minutes and you've achieved this "inbetween" gear you've been asking for whilst in putting almost ZERO effort.

    P.S. I quote everyone's post I reply to, just to make it easier for the reader to identify who I'm replying towards.
    I don't think people are asking for more "content" like yawn isle. Sure you can gear up in 30 minutes. How is that lasting and meaningful content? The only interesting quest you get is the hourglass and seeing the different visions. Outside of that it's just a big meaningless grind fest to gear you up for raiding. I'm not against raiding at all. If that was what I wanted to do then I'd just join a guild and be done or almost done with heroic by now. The game needs more depth in the end game than just assembling 25 or 10 people to have something meaningful to do.

  19. #2379
    at this point saying casual and endgame just makes me smile isnt that what achivements and pet battles is for

  20. #2380
    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    I don't think people are asking for more "content" like yawn isle. Sure you can gear up in 30 minutes. How is that lasting and meaningful content? The only interesting quest you get is the hourglass and seeing the different visions. Outside of that it's just a big meaningless grind fest to gear you up for raiding. I'm not against raiding at all. If that was what I wanted to do then I'd just join a guild and be done or almost done with heroic by now. The game needs more depth in the end game than just assembling 25 or 10 people to have something meaningful to do.
    What exactly do they want from the game then? I'm honestly interested in what they could possibly want as end-game. The lasting and meaningful content in this game is raiding. It probably always will be, and that's just the nature of the beast. I'm all for more content for everyone, but I just don't see them devoting time to make sure casuals have oodles of content to play with over months. That would take an insane amount of resources, and they already spend time developing lasting and meaningful content; raids. I don't know if the people who want more content don't enjoy raiding or pvp... but if that's the case... I don't understand why they play to begin with.

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