1. #2381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finick View Post
    What exactly do they want from the game then?
    Just to be able to bitch really, as Blizzard has said they could give them 1 million dollars and they would bitch it's not 2 million, they are quick to complain but offer no suggestions and any suggestions gives they don't like it or don't think it's casual friendly enough or some other excuse......honestly I am just waiting to hear "I stubbed my toe I can't do that"
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  2. #2382
    Quote Originally Posted by Finick View Post
    What exactly do they want from the game then? I'm honestly interested in what they could possibly want as end-game. The lasting and meaningful content in this game is raiding. It probably always will be, and that's just the nature of the beast. I'm all for more content for everyone, but I just don't see them devoting time to make sure casuals have oodles of content to play with over months. That would take an insane amount of resources, and they already spend time developing lasting and meaningful content; raids. I don't know if the people who want more content don't enjoy raiding or pvp... but if that's the case... I don't understand why they play to begin with.
    Well even if you did put resources into making thousands upon thousands of quests you'd just end up with a honey-do list. That's no fun but why is Blizzard leaving gordon ramsey http://www.wowhead.com/npc=51734/gordon-tramsay hanging out in the steam pools and not offering a quest? Why is that zone just a vacant unused resort for npcs?

    Like I said there is nothing wrong with raiding nor do I see anyone asking for it to be removed. It just seems these days every 3-4 months they roll out the red carpet for the next raid and put up the red rope around whatever catchup mechanic they create to get you into the midst of the new big ride they made. In vanilla at least you had a ton of other things to do that got you into the story. I had a blast doing that when my guild wasn't raiding. There are a lot of cool areas in the existing game Blizzard could do things with when they make a new patch. Everyone wins.

  3. #2383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    Well even if you did put resources into making thousands upon thousands of quests you'd just end up with a honey-do list. That's no fun but why is Blizzard leaving gordon ramsey http://www.wowhead.com/npc=51734/gordon-tramsay hanging out in the steam pools and not offering a quest? Why is that zone just a vacant unused resort for npcs?

    Like I said there is nothing wrong with raiding nor do I see anyone asking for it to be removed. It just seems these days every 3-4 months they roll out the red carpet for the next raid and put up the red rope around whatever catchup mechanic they create to get you into the midst of the new big ride they made. In vanilla at least you had a ton of other things to do that got you into the story. I had a blast doing that when my guild wasn't raiding. There are a lot of cool areas in the existing game Blizzard could do things with when they make a new patch. Everyone wins.
    I am also perturbed by that whole vacation resort thing, I discovered it and nothing was ever done with it, I was like WTF!
    No child these days ever gets to hear those all-important, character building words: "You lost, Bobby! You lost, you're a loser, Bobby!" They miss out on that. You know what they tell a kid who lost these days? "You were the last winner." A lot of these kids never get to hear the truth about themselves until they're in their twenties. When their boss calls them in and says "Bobby, clean the shit out of your desk and get the fuck out of here, you're a loser."

  4. #2384
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    Notice

    Since "what do you all want, anyway" and "what you propose" are recurring questions in this thread, and I am not the original poster, I have taken the liberty to start a new thread and list some of the suggestions in the first post:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-WoD-(Updated)

    I will update that post as the threads go with more links, suggestions, and possibly with the FAQ. Hopefully this will help us move the discussion forward.

    Thank you.

  5. #2385
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Get oQueue if you are having trouble finding a celestials group. There are constantly premades doing them in prime time, you'll get all four down in few groups.

    (It's good for grouping for Ordos too, once you have the cloak.)
    I never said I had trouble finding a Celestials group. In fact, last night I logged on and one just happened to be starting on their first boss so I piggybacked on it and got my cape. Now all those disenfranchised "hardcores" can wipe their tears on the legendary cloak I obtained in less than two months despite unsubbing for 3 months when the expansion first came out and taking yet another six month hiatus shortly thereafter. For the record, I did not obtain the cloak by playing "casually." It took me 24 ToT-level LFR runs, 21 Ogrimmar-level LFR runs, hours upon hours of ToT dailies, several hours of My Little Panda Adventure Isle, and two attempts at the Sha Amalgamation(the first attempt caught me off guard and I failed to interrupt his waves of painful death). I only attempted to use Oqueue once and it was an abysmal failure. Within less than two months of returning I am 10/14 Flex and 7/14N so everyone calling me lazy or entitled can settle down now.

    Just because I have a wife who is understanding enough to tolerate my insane gaming habit doesn't mean I expect the same of everyone else. I am not proud of the countless of hours I have wasted playing this game, and I will never understand those of you who hold those who are disciplined enough to refrain from wasting so much time on a game in such disdain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Casuals aren't denied content. They fail to take part in it, if you buy a movie you don't have time to watch its not the movies fault, nor is it the books fault if you don't have time to read it and its certainly not the games fault if you don't have time to play it.
    The difference between a movie and this game is that once you've bought the movie it's yours forever. They are not going to nerf the movie's content next year, nor are you going to lose access to the movie unless you pony up an additional $15 each month. You're effectively saying that casuals are to blame for not enjoying the game, but that's completely beside the point. The fact remains that they won't enjoy the game so they will quit paying. They won't demand their money back, but whatever revenue Blizzard would have collected from them in the future will cease to be. That's not casuals' problem. That's Blizzard's problem. You can pat Bobby Kotick on the back and assure him that his lazy customers are to blame for refusing to throw more money at his investors in exchange for raids, but I think he's more concerned with what the board thinks than with your accolades.

    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    This isn't about fairness its about what You and I choose to do on our spare time.
    Exactly. And when players choose to quit subscribing to the game Blizzard loses out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    I can't think of any point in Cataclysm's history where you'd have the choice between wiping for 3 hours in Grim Batol and cruising through a raid. You're not really comparing like with like here.
    I speak from personal experience. Pugging Grim Batol was typically a three hour ordeal. On the other hand, the early raids in Cataclysm could be cleared in less than three hours. Remember that the raids at release only had 2-6 bosses apiece. Heck, Baradin Hold took about 10 minutes, and you arguably got more out of that than you would get in a Cataclysm heroic dungeon at release.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by scarson View Post
    Casuals would demand the book be written in "simple English" and have no more than 100 pages. So everyone can achieve and experience the content.
    They do that. Theodore Seigel (Dr. Seuss) built a career on it. There are also "abridged" versions of many lengthy books. The market is driven by demand, not merit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    Are you sure you're your reading skills are in check mate? This very thread is the "example" you've been asking for. Tisk tisk tisk.
    I think you need to check your reading skills. This thread is demanding non-raid content for casuals. You're so wrapped up in this idea that this game is nothing but raiding that you can't even separate an exciting endgame from a raiding endgame.

    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    WoW provides the same basis but done 10000000000x better and you're complaining about little Timmy having to spend an hour of his life farming mobs (which he chooses to do) to be able to take on final boss and defeat the game?
    My point is that little Timmy doesn't have to do that. He can just quit the game. I'm sure you're perfectly fine with that, but Blizzard is going to see that differently because they actually enjoy getting $15 a month from little Timmy.

    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    I don't exactly know what game has EVER been designed in the way you're on about
    Wrath of the Lich King

    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    but I certainly wouldn't want to play it.
    I thought you said you had been subscribed the entire time...

    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    You barely play the game and don't support Blizzard as much as us yet you think you're inclined to the game being changed towards your liking whilst we (permanently subscribed players) who currently enjoy the game should just suck it up?
    When did I say I barely play the game? In fact, I think I play way too much. My whole point is that most people don't have the time or inclination to play as much as I do, but they pay just as much as I do. Why should they be forced to play for three hours a day like me just to see meaningful progress on their character? I understand that if I play more I will advance more, but that's different from not advancing at all without putting in a 3 hour daily minimum and/or enduring a boring, meaningless grind.

    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    I would like to compare you to a player who does PvP and moans about classes being unbalanced - yet has never ranked higher than say 1500.
    Except I went 8/8H in DS prior to MoP and am currently 7/14N in SoO after only one normal mode raid, so I think your comparison would fall flat.

    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    Start playing the game properly and then come back here and share your input.
    Everyone defines what is proper for themselves when they play the game. I also am not aware of any mandates on these forums that require a minimum amount of playing time prior to posting.

    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    Blizzard is doing an extremely good job, if you are indifferent about it
    Phenomenal. That's why they're down over four million subscribers.

    Quote Originally Posted by sQish View Post
    No one can stop you from leaving, which you should.
    Thanks. I wasn't aware that unsubscribing was an option, but you've enlightened me now. I'm sure Blizzard would want to thank you for your tireless efforts to drive players from "your" game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Finick View Post
    What exactly do they want from the game then? I'm honestly interested in what they could possibly want as end-game. The lasting and meaningful content in this game is raiding.
    Heroic dungeons used to be lasting and meaningful too.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-11-08 at 09:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  6. #2386
    I know that it's still raiding, but the whole "flexi across the board"-thing is a huge improvement into letting people to experience the end-game content without being a strictly required to stick to a raidshedule. Not to mention that if they're going to flesh out the whole garrison thing properly it'll add some progress and alternative end-game playstyle we'd like.

    It's good to see they're steering away from silly things such as proving grounds and brawler's guild.
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦ INTJ

  7. #2387
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    I know that it's still raiding, but the whole "flexi across the board"-thing is a huge improvement into letting people to experience the end-game content without being a strictly required to stick to a raidshedule. Not to mention that if they're going to flesh out the whole garrison thing properly it'll add some progress and alternative end-game playstyle we'd like.
    Basically, they're making what was "normal" mode flex, and then they're having to rename the difficulty levels because "flex" can't be used anymore for one of them.

    Cutting Mythic to 20 people is interesting. I imagine they did that to reduce workload on balancing the encounter at that level, and because the high end raiders don't need two sizes.

    It's good to see they're steering away from silly things such as proving grounds and brawler's guild.
    Undoubtedly they look at usage for such things. Throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  8. #2388
    Seems like with WoD they are potentially going for a spg experience with changes like the garrison. You aren't completely unreliant on other players but the gap is getting closer. The next expansion after WoD will likely put the mmospg square center with raiding still there but not required to advance your character. Just hypothesizing from the road they are going down.
    Last edited by Barnabas; 2013-11-09 at 12:21 AM.

  9. #2389
    While I agree casual should get more stuff that reward them with gear without time commitment, ie being able to play for very short period of time and feel progressing,

    I also think that if a hardcore raider need to invest 50-75 hours to get full gearset from a new tier, casual need to have to invest same time, and pay a little tax on quality due to not having to organise, schedule, endure what it's about to play an MMO, being in a group.

    For example, brawler's guild should have a lesser queue time and reward flex or lfr equivalent. Non set.

  10. #2390
    I am Murloc! Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarch the Conqueror View Post
    I know that it's still raiding, but the whole "flexi across the board"-thing is a huge improvement into letting people to experience the end-game content without being a strictly required to stick to a raidshedule. Not to mention that if they're going to flesh out the whole garrison thing properly it'll add some progress and alternative end-game playstyle we'd like.

    It's good to see they're steering away from silly things such as proving grounds and brawler's guild.
    What? What is even wrong with Brawlers Guild and the proving grounds? PG should be good for casuals, a place to learn.

    Are you really asking for LFR to give heroic level gear, though?
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

  11. #2391
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    It's a necro.

    The continuation thread for this one is:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-WoD-(Updated)

    There's a summary there, in the first post.

  12. #2392
    I am Murloc! Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NarnBloodyknuckles View Post
    It's more like "They paid the same amount for the book, and they'd like to read it at their own pace". Which is probably true of even the most hardcore bookworms. They read at their pace, and they enjoy it as they'd like to enjoy it. By your argument, people who love TV shows should watch a season a day, and if they don't have the time for it, they should only get to see the first half of a season and no more.
    No, it'd be more like "casual" watchers that "don't have the time" to watch a new episode every week, getting mad at whoever makes the show because their "hardcore fan" friends get to see what happens because they watch every week, and the "casual watcher" can't be bothered to watch it also.
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

  13. #2393
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    No, it'd be more like "casual" watchers that "don't have the time" to watch a new episode every week, getting mad at whoever makes the show because their "hardcore fan" friends get to see what happens because they watch every week, and the "casual watcher" can't be bothered to watch it also.
    You are replying to posts that were written three months ago.

  14. #2394
    I am Murloc! Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    You are replying to posts that were written three months ago.
    I see that now, heh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

  15. #2395
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    It's a necro.

    The continuation thread for this one is:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-WoD-(Updated)

    There's a summary there, in the first post.
    Yes, please use the thread linked above. Thanks!



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