Thread: Poison Ideas

  1. #1

    Poison Ideas

    I feel like the current Rogue poison system is lackluster and boring. I was thinking of some new poisons and way to use them

    First of remove Deadly Brew (currently the 2 piece pvp set)

    Introduce some new poisons and modify current ones:

    Lethal poisons:
    Deadly poison: Deals x damage over 12 second
    Instant poison: deals x damage
    Corrosive poison: Apply 1 stack of sunder armor
    Weakening poison: Apply Physical vulnerability (4% inscresed melee damage)
    Soulshattering poison: Apply curse of the elements
    Necrotic poison: absorbs the next X amount of healing received by the target

    Non Lethal poisons
    Leeching poison: Heal for x% amount damage dealt
    Crippling Poison: Reduce enemy's movement speed by 50% for 8sec
    Paralysis poison: Debuff that stacks to X and then stuns for y seconds
    Mind numbing poison: Slow casting speed for 8 sec by 50%
    Wound poison: Debuff that decrease healing receive by 10%
    Hallucinatory poison: Decrease hit chance by X% for Y sec (maybe with a stacking debuff first like paralysis)

    and now that we have all these poison it would be to mix and match 2-3 of these poisons together and apply them to your weapons

    Ex: Mario the Subtelty rogue is doing duels facing a mage. For lethal he mixes Deadly, Instant and Weakening. For non lethal he mixes Crippling, Mind numbing and paralysis.

    Mario now is dueling a warrior and decides to switch poisons. for Lethal he goes: Instant, Weakening and Corrosive. For non-lethal he goes Leeching, crippling and hallucinatory

    Mario's now dueling a holy paladin. For lethal he goes Corrosive, Necrotic, instant. for non-lethal he goes Wound, Mind numbing, Crippling

    now that I wrote all of this, I think It would be pretty complicated specially to balance it and make all poisons worth it. also would promote switching poisons depending on targets. Maybe it would be more of a hassle than anything.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Damax View Post
    Soulshattering poison: Apply curse of the elements
    We already do this with all of our current poisons.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Damax View Post
    I feel like the current Rogue poison system is lackluster and boring. I was thinking of some new poisons and way to use them

    First of remove Deadly Brew (currently the 2 piece pvp set)

    Introduce some new poisons and modify current ones:

    Lethal poisons:
    Deadly poison: Deals x damage over 12 second
    Instant poison: deals x damage
    Corrosive poison: Apply 1 stack of sunder armor
    Weakening poison: Apply Physical vulnerability (4% inscresed melee damage)
    Soulshattering poison: Apply curse of the elements
    Necrotic poison: absorbs the next X amount of healing received by the target

    Non Lethal poisons
    Leeching poison: Heal for x% amount damage dealt
    Crippling Poison: Reduce enemy's movement speed by 50% for 8sec
    Paralysis poison: Debuff that stacks to X and then stuns for y seconds
    Mind numbing poison: Slow casting speed for 8 sec by 50%
    Wound poison: Debuff that decrease healing receive by 10%
    Hallucinatory poison: Decrease hit chance by X% for Y sec (maybe with a stacking debuff first like paralysis)
    Rogues already apply curse of elements.

    All rogues already can apply sunder with expose armor which is actually very user friendly in it's current iteration.

    Mixing multiple poisons just isn't really a good idea. For our deadly poison there's no point to this because any damage increase (like mixing deadly & instant) would just be normalized so anytime you don't do that you'll be doing less damage than you are now. And if you need to apply debuffs we can already do that. And, mixing multiple non-lethal just shouldn't be. It's a pick and choose system and if you just threw them all into the pot it would get kinda op.

    In pve this is generally moot since every tank out there already supplies every debuff to the bosses damage needed and if you're in a raid that lacks a sunder armor rogues already have that ability so why would you want to give up deadly poison? 99% of the time our non-lethal poison is immune on boss mechanics except for adds which a slowing or paralytic poison is generally used but most of the time our non-lethal is completely wasted. The only viable non-lethal that's usable 100% of the time is leeching which is pretty crap healing over all and generally only good for solo play and to top it off the other talents such as cheat death and elusiveness just out weigh it by too much in pve content.

    The end truth though is that anytime you want to make something more interesting it will have a rough time because generally there will always be the "best" use of anything that everyone will use and generally not differentiate from.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Rogues already apply curse of elements.

    All rogues already can apply sunder with expose armor which is actually very user friendly in it's current iteration.

    Mixing multiple poisons just isn't really a good idea. For our deadly poison there's no point to this because any damage increase (like mixing deadly & instant) would just be normalized so anytime you don't do that you'll be doing less damage than you are now. And if you need to apply debuffs we can already do that. And, mixing multiple non-lethal just shouldn't be. It's a pick and choose system and if you just threw them all into the pot it would get kinda op.

    In pve this is generally moot since every tank out there already supplies every debuff to the bosses damage needed and if you're in a raid that lacks a sunder armor rogues already have that ability so why would you want to give up deadly poison? 99% of the time our non-lethal poison is immune on boss mechanics except for adds which a slowing or paralytic poison is generally used but most of the time our non-lethal is completely wasted. The only viable non-lethal that's usable 100% of the time is leeching which is pretty crap healing over all and generally only good for solo play and to top it off the other talents such as cheat death and elusiveness just out weigh it by too much in pve content.

    The end truth though is that anytime you want to make something more interesting it will have a rough time because generally there will always be the "best" use of anything that everyone will use and generally not differentiate from.
    so just remove all the poisons then cuz they are pretty pointless and mindless. There's absolutely no choice in them right now. most non-lethal right now are useless in pve. Lethal is not even a choice in pve they should just switch your poisons automatically enter a bg you get wound go in an instance you get deadly. The most choice we get in pvp is non lethal and its between mind numbing or paralysis.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    All rogues already can apply sunder with expose armor which is actually very user friendly in it's current iteration.

    99% of the time our non-lethal poison is immune on boss mechanics except for adds which a slowing or paralytic poison is generally used but most of the time our non-lethal is completely wasted. The only viable non-lethal that's usable 100% of the time is leeching which is pretty crap healing over all and generally only good for solo play and to top it off the other talents such as cheat death and elusiveness just out weigh it by too much in pve content.
    Well, I think the mixing poisons idea is bad, but I think you hit on something important. Non lethals are pretty damn worthless in a raid. I think his idea to use poisons for debuffs is actually pretty good except that needs to be additional non lethal options. I'm not sure we really need the ability to pull a hunter for debuffs, but that is one way to take a fairly important class mechanic and actually make it something where people give a crap about it.

    So much of our tool set as a rogue is garbage for raids (and a good bit is pretty lack luster in pve in general). I'd be all for them doing some overall pretty minor tweak so that it actually matters again (like letting us use poisons for debuffs even if we probably have them from some one else most of the time).
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-11-02 at 07:01 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    So much of our tool set as a rogue is garbage for raids (and a good bit is pretty lack luster in pve in general).
    Our offensive toolkit is garbage, as most of our defense can have an impact in the right situation. Our non DPS mechanics not so much. But that is an issue for most characters, as CC in general does not interact with bosses.
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  7. #7
    While I don't agree with some of the OP's ideas, I share the sentiment; poisons are mindless and quite boring. In terms of PvE the Rogue class only have one choice of lethal poison, and non-lethal poisons are fairly useless for a majority of raid situations. Having all three specializations use the exact same poisons simply feels like lazy and uninspired design, which the Rogue class has enough of. Especially for Assassination, the idea that the "Poison" specialization uses the exact same poisons as the other two is absurd. Assassination should have more choices of poisons than Combat or Sub, for example a very potent short cooldown poison (30-60s).

    Either way, hopefully we will see some more creativity applied to this class next expansion.

  8. #8
    Epic! Phookah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    So much of our tool set as a rogue is garbage for raids (and a good bit is pretty lack luster in pve in general). I'd be all for them doing some overall pretty minor tweak so that it actually matters again (like letting us use poisons for debuffs even if we probably have them from some one else most of the time).
    Pretty sure I use Feint/CoS/Vanish/Prep/Evasion all the time in my raids... By utility do you mean stuns? Because almost everything else is great.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarzog View Post
    While I don't agree with some of the OP's ideas, I share the sentiment; poisons are mindless and quite boring. In terms of PvE the Rogue class only have one choice of lethal poison, and non-lethal poisons are fairly useless for a majority of raid situations. Having all three specializations use the exact same poisons simply feels like lazy and uninspired design, which the Rogue class has enough of. Especially for Assassination, the idea that the "Poison" specialization uses the exact same poisons as the other two is absurd. Assassination should have more choices of poisons than Combat or Sub, for example a very potent short cooldown poison (30-60s).

    Either way, hopefully we will see some more creativity applied to this class next expansion.
    I don't think so, I bet some new class will come out and the rogue population will dwindle even more but I guess that's some kind of fix

  10. #10
    Think of poison's like hunter pets we have a selection we can choose from but like a hunter we can only pick one at a time.

    As far as debuffs go. In a raid they're all covered by a tank except for sunder which a lot of classes can apply and honestly the chances of being in a raid without sunder are very small.

    Rogues don't need to bring every debuff either. While blizz wants you to bring the player not the class you still need to have some diversity and want to bring certain classes for optimal buffs to an extent. Promotes raid diversity.

    Honestly if they took away deadly poisons it wouldn't make much of a difference. They make sense for assassination rogues because that's their deal. They're the poison dudes so if they kept deadly poison and that was part of their tool kit that'd make sense. Combat and sub if it was gone and the damage was just baked into those specs passively that'd be fine.

    Pvp and solo play non-lethals play a much bigger role. In pvp you have to have crippling. You just have to which is why it's baked into the pvp 2 set so that rogues can still pick another poison and have a chance to choose what they want aside from the mandatory crippling. And with that said non-lethals are amazing here.

    Pve in general the poisons are pretty moot but in the cases where they aren't they're pretty awesome. But this is understandable because if bosses were poisonable with like mind numbing they the boss would be built around HAVING to have a rogue be in the raid to put mind numbing on it. In a 10 man this can get tricky and could either make the encounter normal or next to impossible. And I think this is where the problem lies is that if rogues can poison a boss for instance and do something awesome then the boss is balanced around that. It turns into a gimmick along the lines of having to bring a shaman back in the day because they were the only ones who could hero and you needed 5 for all 5 groups. Imagine if a boss had a .5 second cast that had to be interrupted and on heroic difficulty non-interruption is a wipe. You need to have a rogue in there cause other wise because of latency/lag and just the fact that most people can't react to a .5 second cast you need the rogue in there for mind numbing so that the cast time is more reasonable to hit although still hard. Now if you're in a situation where you just can't find a rogue then you can't progress past that boss and that's poor design.

    Poisons are pretty awesome as they are. We have an assortment of tools to use in various situations as needed. Deadly are boring but so are bleeds for warriors. It's just part of our passive damage.

    As far as utility goes a rogue brings, physical haste, curse of elements, and sunder if needed. It fits in perfectly with other classes and we bring just as much to the table as others. The rogue utility tool kit is straight up on the level of McGuiver right now you just have to be smart and make use of it. Rogues are totally fine on the utility department and don't need any more of it. I'm running out of buttons as it is!

    Personally I'd rather they improved rogue game play rather than delved too much into a passive ability.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Our offensive toolkit is garbage, as most of our defense can have an impact in the right situation. Our non DPS mechanics not so much. But that is an issue for most characters, as CC in general does not interact with bosses.
    See theres 2 problems with that. (1) Polymorphing isn't a class defining mechanic. Sure, its a fairly iconic mage spell, but really if you just took away poly, mages would still be masters of ice, fire, and arcane magic which is what defines the mage class. Mages aren't defined by a single spell just like rogues are still rogues after losing riposte and ghostly strike. Stealth on the otherhand is a class defining rogue mechanic which if you take away, we really no longer fit our class description. So Poly / Fear / etc being useless is not equivalent.

    (2) There are in fact raid encounters where CC can be used. Except of course our primary CC which is only usable on mobs not in combat and mobs spawned during a raid encounter start in combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phookah View Post
    Pretty sure I use Feint/CoS/Vanish/Prep/Evasion all the time in my raids... By utility do you mean stuns? Because almost everything else is great.
    And when was the last time stealth was useful in a raid encounter? Never. I never mentioned utility btw. Whether its utility we offer or just directly beneficial to our damage output / survivability, we have very core class mechanics like stealth (to the point one of the 'new big abilities' we got for MoP was group stealth) that serve no point in a raid encounter. Other classes of course have minor things which tend to be useless in raid encounters, but not core aspects of their class like we do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Think of poison's like hunter pets we have a selection we can choose from but like a hunter we can only pick one at a time.
    Not really a good example. Hunter pets can bring pretty much any of the important buffs / debuffs which are only 'useless' when some one else already brings them and therefore are potentially useful on every single encounter ever. Our utility poisons on most fights are useless because they flat out will never do anything.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post

    Pvp and solo play non-lethals play a much bigger role. In pvp you have to have crippling. You just have to which is why it's baked into the pvp 2 set so that rogues can still pick another poison and have a chance to choose what they want aside from the mandatory crippling. And with that said non-lethals are amazing here.
    You don't have to have crippling in pvp, its given to you when you get 2 set of pvp gear which you should wear if you are doing any pvp. They could give you a debuff ala druid's infected wounds. There is no choice in pvp if you go leeching you are dumb: 10% of 30% of the dps you would do on a heavy movement fight with cc and interrupts. The only ''choice'' is paralysis or mindnumbing I feel paralysis is superior but its a talent so if you didn't take it there's no choice and if you took the talent your choice is already made pretty much.

    For solo-play leeching works but its pretty useless as recup should be enough, some mob barely hits you once or twice when you got the gear. In pve leeching is often overhealing since most healer nowadays top off everyone asap. Mindnumbing and crippling are both useless for PVE.

    Lethal there's no choice either its deadly for pve, wound for pvp unless you are playing with a warrior and still wouldn't change it in case your warrior can't get a MS on a switch target fast enough.

    Poisons are as boring as shaman weapons imbues: each spec is set in stone, pvp can choose the offhand between two (frostbrand/flametongue = Mindnumbing/paralysis)

    Poisons aren't awesome as they are. we don't have an assortment of interesting tools to use since there isn't various situation of need for them. Deadly and wound is an illusion of choice which could be passive and no rogue would mind since everyone hates the 1 hour time limit and the horrible cast time if you didn't glyph it.

  13. #13
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    Basically, allow our poisons to fill the roles that hunter pets currently fill, with perhaps assassination (poison focused) having access to the beast mastery pet abilities. Yes it's homogenisation, but at least it makes poisons more involved in a balanced and easy manner.
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  14. #14
    I would merge deadly poison and wound. No reason for 2 lethal poisons anymore. Dirty tricks can go baseline.

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