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  1. #161
    funny blizzard do this to make more tanks but the fact tanks are faceroll now and this is why i don't tank anymore its simply boring so i just DPS and its much more fun

  2. #162
    Bring back proper threat mechanics and tanking will be fun again.
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  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by waldor22 View Post
    Tanking is harder than ever you actually have stuff to do besides pop cds when shit gets bad, this system rewards good tanks and it punishes bad tanks.

    Playing a pally tank with constant GCD cap is amazing, being a bear and having stupidly high health and dodge is fun too plus the crit.
    YOU have NO idea what u are talking about do u play tank since mop ???

  4. #164
    Herald of the Titans Puffler's Avatar
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    Tanking is basically move out of x , y and z while holding aggro of boss / adds with some tank switching.

    Found it very boring indeed (during Cata anyway)
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  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebonj View Post
    I've brought this up on the forums before. DPS should be in REAL danger of death if they pull aggro. There should be consequences for being over-zealous, impatient or downright bad.

    Just recently I joined a dungeon, as a guardian druid, and before I'd even buffed, the warrior in the group was running ahead of me pulling everything. A tank wasn't needed.

    If a dps enters combat with a dungeon mob or boss, they should HAVE to kite it or blow defensive cooldowns to survive. All dps want in dungeons now is a key to let them in. That key is the "tank" role, but it doesn't mean anything anymore.

    lol

    tanks not needed when item level difference is 100+

    give me a break, are you brain dead? Not to be insulting, but what you're demanding isn't realistic

    we entered heroic dungeons at 440 item level.

    at 560 item level, you still want there to be danger??????????????
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  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    only problem then would be - how to do all this (and I agree with basically everything you said) while keeping AM. because I like it, a lot of other people do, and I am pretty convinced that blizzard does as well.

    Tanks should NOT be about "don't care about survivability, as long as you have gear you're fine" (as it was in classic), but neither they should be "don't care about threat as long as you have it once you're fine" (as it is now).

    they did well with threat being an issue (in classic and I think at least also in BC if I remember correctly), and nowadays they do well with survivability being an issue, but threat being absolutely irrelevant.

    I would say what you said is a good start.
    I think, Tanks should do the exact same DPS as DPS do - regardless if they have aggro or not. maybe not 100%, but let's say 80% or so. combine this with a 120% (not precise math) threat modificatior. Or 90%/110%. additionally, their survivability is a lot greater than DPS/Healers, meaning if they fail at Threat, the non-tanks get instagibbed. taunt immunity at bosses, plus switch mechanics which requires tank switches, maybe not in the extend they do now (e.g. garrosh, taunt every what? 10 seconds?). No a good tank does good threat and at the same time, due to AM, survives better.

    complete overhaul of all passive stats. hit/expertise are just too mandatory nowadays. everyone has this as top priority (except healers), so it is something I would remove first... but that's a whole different story.
    You balance the two mechanic between each other, that's how you solve it. The point with AM is about giving you the decision if to use your resources for DPS or for AM, the problem with this is that the two things are out of balance. The choice between using resource for AM or for getting a bigger e-penis is not meaningful enough and it is not a real "choice".

    Quoting the good GC from twitter:
    "The game designer definition of interesting is a choice with no clear right answer. You have to weigh pros and cons etc."

    Here is where the problem lie, the tank work may be complex in a way (movement, checking buff/debuffs, interrrupt if needed) but lacks depth because it lacks real choice on how to spend its resources, or if there are choices they are not meaningful.

    Lowering the generated threat (not at previous miserable levels though but enough to have a dedicated DPS grab aggro if you're not paying enough attention) so that you have to work harder to maintain it would not really go against the current AM mechanic if anything it would enhanche it as how you spend your resources it really becomes way more strategical and meaningful than now
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
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  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Muezick View Post
    lol

    tanks not needed when item level difference is 100+

    give me a break, are you brain dead? Not to be insulting, but what you're demanding isn't realistic

    we entered heroic dungeons at 440 item level.

    at 560 item level, you still want there to be danger??????????????
    Nothing brings about content irrelevancy quite as fast as the ability to outgear it.

    If this game did things right, higher ilvl gear would allow you to compete in a wider range of places / instances, and little else.
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  8. #168
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    The problem is not tanking is easy or faceroll it's the content we are running (heroic content excluded) has been dumbed down severely. LFD's you don't even need tanks/healers/dps rolls as ONE person can solo any 5 man heroic now. LFR is just a dumbed down raid for mentally handicapped people and regular raids usually get nerfed or you just showered with epics to make the once maybe difficult content now trivial.

  9. #169
    easier content is a factor but not the core of the issue
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    If X is % better then Y, Y is bad. I hate that concept with the searing, burning unfathomable energy of a collapsing supergiant.

  10. #170
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brazorf View Post
    Here is where the problem lie, the tank work may be complex in a way (movement, checking buff/debuffs, interrrupt if needed) but lacks depth because it lacks real choice on how to spend its resources, or if there are choices they are not meaningful.
    the funny thing is, currently paladins for example (I play one) don't really have a different button for dmg and AM. Shield of the Righteous is both one of the highest hitting abilities AND the main button for AM. I don't really count EF/SS as choice, since you only press it about twice per minute actually. You are right, there is no choice.

    Nowadays you don't have a choice for threat, because survivability is all that matters, in vanilla you haven't had a choice for survivability (because it was all passive via gear and some CDs), all that mattered was about threat.


    I'm really curious what blizzcon will reveal. But I fear it won't be big changes...

  11. #171
    that's why I said that they simply swung the core of the tank gameplay too much on the opposite side
    The Monk is a perfect example of the AM concept done if not perfectly, much much more better.

    The management of the short term buffs usually do lead on interesting choices on how to spend your Chi, but even the monk may need a bit more work imho.
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    If X is % better then Y, Y is bad. I hate that concept with the searing, burning unfathomable energy of a collapsing supergiant.

  12. #172
    Active mitigation is a bull**t. Maybe monks and DKs like it, but for other classes pressing one extra button every 6 second isn't fun/challenging/skillfull.

    And the bosses are soooo boring... since ToT every boss is built around stacking tank debuffs. All we have to do on every single fight is taunt at 1/2/3/4/5....14/15 stack.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Khayelynn1121 View Post
    I disagree with the threat argument and I'm glad they raised it. I remember being a warlock in BC, no matter how good the tank was it was just too easy to peel off him. It was even worse for fury warriors, even with Salvation. It was not compelling nor fun to tell your DPS to "throttle it back" and it was even worse in vanilla.
    That only tells me that you never raided with a good tank in vanilla and BC.
    Yes there were a few fights were the bosses actively dumped threat from the tank but you as DPS had to keep that in mind and pop threat mitigating cooldowns accordingly, other than those few bosses a good tank would hold threat no matter what whereas a decent tank could struggle and a bad tank stood no chance in hell of holding aggro, ever.
    Back in those days pretty much all bosses were untauntable as well so when a boss required tank switches the tanks really needed to be on the ball and being high on threat all the time. Was way more interesting and fun to tank in BC (didn't really tank in vanilla except for on a few different occasions borrowing a guildies tank when he couldn't show up for raid, but not enough to form a valid opinion) than it is today.

  14. #174
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Personally, while I don't find it boring I don't find it enjoyable. I liked tanking before Active Mitigation, and think that this new concept feels more like "Defensive DPS" than actual tanking. I'm not a fan of it; in fact I don't tank anymore because I hate active mitigation and it was burning me out. I absolutely loved tanking in Wrath and to a lesser extent Cataclysm, but MoP just ruined it for me. I want to tank, not feel like a DPS. Let me manage threat, let me know when I should use actual cooldowns, and that's it. I enjoyed tanking being boring as the "reward" for the associated stress of tanking; now it feels like not only do I have that same stress but I have to be much more engaged in the act of tanking.

    Not for me, not anymore. I've pretty much hung up my shield now except in very rare cases (e.g. third tank for Dark Shaman) because it's no longer fun, even if its more engaging.
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  15. #175
    It's because encounters are more demanding now.

  16. #176
    Mechagnome Zenny's Avatar
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    I don't agree. Tanking is more engaging then it's ever been.

  17. #177
    So...

    While we have "A" group whining, that threat is too easy, and AM is irrelevant since "we can blame the healer if we die!".

    "B" group whines because tanking is too difficult right now, since they can't afk now once they have threat... Aka: "using abilities properly (having a rotation) isn't the duty of a tank, if I would have wanted to do that I would have roled a DPS!!!!!"

    I'm not sure what to say anymore... -___-

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