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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    "Great wall of text about why AOE isnt important"
    You know I could pretty much take your exact post and turn it around, with arguments for why AOE damage is important to; get shorter phases with high damage, get rid of certain mechanics, bring less healers and thus more DPS, let good single target classes focus solely on single target etc.

    I don't want to go through each boss, I'm sure people who raid heroic content is well aware of the massive amount of AOE in SoO. And why do we even discuss this, did you miss the point about warriors being the 4th best single target class, only 4% behind the best performing class (warlocks)?

  2. #42
    Field Marshal Sagittary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliria View Post
    You know I could pretty much take your exact post and turn it around, with arguments for why AOE damage is important to; get shorter phases with high damage, get rid of certain mechanics, bring less healers and thus more DPS, let good single target classes focus solely on single target etc.

    I don't want to go through each boss, I'm sure people who raid heroic content is well aware of the massive amount of AOE in SoO. And why do we even discuss this, did you miss the point about warriors being the 4th best single target class, only 4% behind the best performing class (warlocks)?
    The key is that good warriors are the 4th best single target class in the game. Those who say otherwise fall into the category of bad or mediocre (mostly the former). Don't get your knickers in a twist from these people. All they want to do is to get a rise out of the good warriors who perform to the specs capabilities. :3
    Ex top 15 world Warrior. Now playing the mage.

  3. #43
    Herald of the Titans Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    I think single target matters a great deal in this tier. More single target dps is very often more important than more AoE/cleave/multidot.

    Take any fight as an example. 10% more single target dps on the bosses means shorter phases, less phases on some fights and less adds on some fights.

    More AoE just means you don't have to be as careful with the mechanics adds bring.

    Heck, even Galakras requires high single target dps on shamans. The other mobs are usually dead from cleaves anyways. From the heroic fights I have experience from so far (first 6 bosses) I only consider Galakras being a somewhat important fight to have AoE dps.

    We have a hunter/lock for Immerseus, so those adds melt. More single target means less abilities to care about. More AoE means shit.

    We even had to cut down on the AoE/MultiDoT on Protectors because we needed to push certain phases faster. We reduced AoE to increase single target during our progression there.

    Norushen is a no brainer, single target is most important there, same with Sha of Pride unless you for some reason think dps should handle the adds by themselves.

    Galakras; the only step up in difficulty is higher dps needed on Shamans/Bonecrushers. Mostly single target.

    Iron Juggernaut, well. Only one target to dps.


    My point is, after you've reached enough AoE dps to actually beat the phase, everything else should always be thrown into single target. More AoE might push higher numbers, but that doesn't mean it's more important.
    I'm sorry, I usually try to be level headed (to varying degrees of success) but are you an idiot?

    Heck, even Galakras requires high single target dps on shamans. The other mobs are usually dead from cleaves anyways. From the heroic fights I have experience from so far (first 6 bosses) I only consider Galakras being a somewhat important fight to have AoE dps.
    The shamans don't require any more dps than the other mobs; they require interrupts. If you are single target dpsing Shamans instead of cleaving them down along with focus interrupts then I can't even begin to explain how bad you or your group is.

    We have a hunter/lock for Immerseus, so those adds melt. More single target means less abilities to care about. More AoE means shit.
    Immerseus is a joke no matter how you slice it. Regardless Warriors are almost designed for that fight. With 1 minute Bladestorms on adds (and doing heafty dmg to the boss), and spaced out single target phases so you always have CS ready when he comes up, I have no clue in hell how you think a Hunter (who loses ST by aoe'ing them) is better suited to AoE than a Warrior (who loses next to nothing from AoE).

    same with Sha of Pride unless you for some reason think dps should handle the adds by themselves.
    Who else do you think handles the adds? Healers AoE now? Again Warriors Bladestorm lines up perfectly for this. Have a DK Grasp them in, or if your group is simply good at stacking, and a single Warrior can pretty much solo this aspect of the fight, a boon to any 10m (which it sounds like you are) in my opinion.
    Its the same thing with Malkorok, Warriors and DK's are perhaps the best classes to deal with the adds. Just try to have Ranged cleave them down, I dare you.

    Galakras; the only step up in difficulty is higher dps needed on Shamans/Bonecrushers. Mostly single target.
    Again, you shouldn't be single targeting these mobs (unless you are a class which has no real aoe, in which case they should be in the towers when they can) unless there is nothing left to AoE. As I said before, Shamans simply require interrupts, and Bonecrushers require Grips/Stuns to handle Fixate. This is a controlling mechanic, not a DPS check.

    Your end point is somewhat valid, but a Warrior is one of the strongest Cleave classes in the game right now, next to Ele Shams, Shadow Priests and Afflicition locks. It is definitely the best Melee cleave class.
    Even completely ignoring cleave; you bring up fights like Norushen and Iron Juggernaut. Iron Juggs can be a wash depending on your strat; Rogues may be higher IF you don't have healing after knockbacks; they can survive longer, but Warriors can easily survive with proper CD usage.

    I have yet to have a Rogue beat me on Norushen (fact my record is 450k all ST) and I raid with some extremely good Rogues. I don't know what the hell you are talking about when you think Warriors single target is bad. In fact I have been top DPS on almost every fight this tier, barring a few where it was mechanically not possible for me.


    Unless you are talking about lawl normal modes in which case I don't know why we are even bothering having this discussion.

    Keep it civil, please. No need to call people idiot. - Senen
    Last edited by Senen; 2013-11-06 at 10:02 AM.

  4. #44
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    This is the first tier, like ever, that I feel like they designed almost every encounter for warrior to excel in.

    Edit: ICC was pretty close because we passively cleaved.

  5. #45
    I would say ToGC was quite well designed for us as well, but most people don't count that as a tier anyhow, so I think we can skip that one.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I'm sorry, I usually try to be level headed (to varying degrees of success) but are you an idiot?
    I'm not saying AoE dps isn't needed, but there's a roof of how much you actually need. AoE is definitely extremely important in this tier, I'm not saying it isn't, but I will always consider single target dps more important to actually down a boss, unless you overgear it and have no struggle with timers anyways. Let's exaggerate a bit. If I do 30mil dps when there are 5 adds present or 10mil dps single target, which would you consider more important? The single target dps of course.



    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    The shamans don't require any more dps than the other mobs; they require interrupts. If you are single target dpsing Shamans instead of cleaving them down along with focus interrupts then I can't even begin to explain how bad you or your group is.
    I'm not saying you should focus single target, but there are often waves where the shaman are the lone survivor after the AoE storm. More focus on the Shaman there would mean the mobs die at the same time = higher dps in total.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Immerseus is a joke no matter how you slice it. Regardless Warriors are almost designed for that fight. With 1 minute Bladestorms on adds (and doing heafty dmg to the boss), and spaced out single target phases so you always have CS ready when he comes up, I have no clue in hell how you think a Hunter (who loses ST by aoe'ing them) is better suited to AoE than a Warrior (who loses next to nothing from AoE).
    I never said a hunter is better for AoE than a warrior. I said that we have a hunter + lock in my team. The rest of us don't even have to think about AoEing, we just keep nuking the boss. The only time we stop for AoE is if we get 4-5 stacks of the debuff so we don't get killed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Who else do you think handles the adds? Healers AoE now? Again Warriors Bladestorm lines up perfectly for this. Have a DK Grasp them in, or if your group is simply good at stacking, and a single Warrior can pretty much solo this aspect of the fight, a boon to any 10m (which it sounds like you are) in my opinion.
    Its the same thing with Malkorok, Warriors and DK's are perhaps the best classes to deal with the adds. Just try to have Ranged cleave them down, I dare you
    I'm not saying warriors are better or worse than any class when it comes to AoE. I'm still arguing that if you wanted a super steroid pumped dps for either single target or AoE, single target would be the wiser choice in most situations, even in SoO.

    And healers? No, but our tanks pick them up, then they die from natural cleaves. No need to change to them, especially if you have a warrior popping Bladestorm as you say. That's why I consider single target dps more important.

    Would we rather have 2 bladestorms or extra single target? I'd choose single target.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Again, you shouldn't be single targeting these mobs (unless you are a class which has no real aoe, in which case they should be in the towers when they can) unless there is nothing left to AoE. As I said before, Shamans simply require interrupts, and Bonecrushers require Grips/Stuns to handle Fixate. This is a controlling mechanic, not a DPS check.
    Well of course the control is the priority, no arguing there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Your end point is somewhat valid, but a Warrior is one of the strongest Cleave classes in the game right now, next to Ele Shams, Shadow Priests and Afflicition locks. It is definitely the best Melee cleave class.
    Even completely ignoring cleave; you bring up fights like Norushen and Iron Juggernaut. Iron Juggs can be a wash depending on your strat; Rogues may be higher IF you don't have healing after knockbacks; they can survive longer, but Warriors can easily survive with proper CD usage.
    Warriors are indeed extremely strong cleavers, especially arms. No argument there. I'm not convinced Warriors outperform Rogues single target yet though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I have yet to have a Rogue beat me on Norushen (fact my record is 450k all ST) and I raid with some extremely good Rogues. I don't know what the hell you are talking about when you think Warriors single target is bad. In fact I have been top DPS on almost every fight this tier, barring a few where it was mechanically not possible for me.
    And this is evidence that it always comes down to player skill, RNG, setup, orb order, etc etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Unless you are talking about lawl normal modes in which case I don't know why we are even bothering having this discussion.
    Of course not, don't be silly. :P
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  7. #47
    Herald of the Titans Archimtiros's Avatar
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    And you think there isn't a single target roof?

    You only see one side of the argument and keep focusing it, in complete opposition to every counter argument.

    You claim AoE isn't necessary because Shamans survive the AoE? Shamans shouldn't be the ones surviving the AoE purge. They have 123mil hp on 25H. Bonecrushers by contrast has 193mil. They are also the ones that keep running out of range for Fracture, while the Shamans stay still and cast. If Shamans are the last ones up, something is wrong. But even if they are, 123mil is nothing, you keep talking about AoE caps and act like there isn't an ST cap?

    As Oliria also pointed out, and the reason I brought up the hunter; you think there is no point to a Warrior AoEing when you have a Hunter. My counter argument is why would a Hunter ever AoE when you have a Warrior? Warriors AoE will (usually) vastly out perform a Hunter, and the Hunter loses ST dmg while the Warrior does not.

    Sha of Pride: The Manifestations of Pride have 7.7mil HP each. That is easily handled by your Tanks if you want to go that route during the early waves, but during the later waves when there are dozens of them up, why would you NOT want to AoE those down? In fact if you don't stun them and AoE them immediately I am pretty certain your tanks will either need CD's to survive or you have bomb healers. Either way they would be up entirely too long and require unnecessary healing when you could have AoE'd them down in 6 seconds.

    I am also talking about Fury in all cases, Arms is a dead spec. Its worth using on 3 fights max, and 2 of those can be a complete wash based on strat.

    Lastly:
    Would we rather have 2 bladestorms or extra single target? I'd choose single target.
    I simply cannot understand this statement. You realize you get both right?

    And:
    I'm still arguing that if you wanted a super steroid pumped dps for either single target or AoE, single target would be the wiser choice in most situations, even in SoO.
    It's not a decision of one vs the other. I've been expounding on the benefits of Warrior AoE but I don't understand how you fail to realize, as Oliria showed you in a post early, we are still one of the best ST damage at the moment.

    I am convinced that you simply raid with some shit Warriors and hope your opinion changes when you have a chance to meet some good ones.

    Edit: And all my argument here has been for Fury not Arms. Arms is a dead spec IMO. It is only good on 3 fights, none of which are particularly difficult this tier; and 2 of which are completely strat dependent.
    Last edited by Archimtiros; 2013-11-05 at 06:54 PM.

  8. #48
    My time machine, it worked! It's clearly 2006 again where people think AoE damage just helps to clear MC trash faster.
    Only make passive aggressive posts when it doesn't make you look like a dumbass.

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  9. #49
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    Umm...when you have MOST efficient AOE in the game, why is your hunter and lock doing all the aoe? Sounds like a raid DPS loss to me.

    Also, your statement about bladestorm intrigues me. Simmed, at 572 ILevel, it is a 1k DPS loss over Dragon Roar single target. Give ANY ads through the whole encounter that causes the DR to diminish, and bladestorm is on par if not better. That is efficient aoe that no other classes have. I fail to see your points, as the facts you are presenting are out-dated.
    Last edited by sjsctt; 2013-11-05 at 07:34 PM.

  10. #50
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Guys, 2/14 normal mode noob is trying to argue with warriors in world top 10 guilds. I smellz a troll. Or an idiot. Even I'm not going to bother mocking him by dismantling his idiotic rambling.

    Keep it civil, please. Don't flame people or call them troll. - Senen
    Last edited by Senen; 2013-11-06 at 10:00 AM.

  11. #51
    Field Marshal Sagittary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Guys, 2/14 normal mode noob is trying to argue with warriors in world top 10 guilds. I smellz a troll. Or an idiot. Even I'm not going to bother mocking him by dismantling his idiotic rambling.
    A "professional" mage, at that
    Ex top 15 world Warrior. Now playing the mage.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    And you think there isn't a single target roof?

    I don't raid with warriors. At least not every raid unless we need a replacement. I'm not arguing about AoE dps being important or not. I think you misunderstand me completely.

    There is never a single target roof unless you kill the boss in 1 second. If you have 20mil dps, you can still make the fight easier by getting 30mil single target dps.

    Going from 50 to 100 mil AoE dps makes incredibly little difference unless the single target dps on the boss is increased at the same time.

    I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say since you bring up multiple completely irrelevant arguments.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sjsctt View Post
    Umm...when you have MOST efficient AOE in the game, why is your hunter and lock doing all the aoe? Sounds like a raid DPS loss to me.

    Also, your statement about bladestorm intrigues me. Simmed, at 572 ILevel, it is a 1k DPS loss over Dragon Roar single target. Give ANY ads through the whole encounter that causes the DR to diminish, and bladestorm is on par if not better. That is efficient aoe that no other classes have. I fail to see your points, as the facts you are presenting are out-dated.
    We don't have always have a warrior in my group, I never said we did.

    I'm not saying warriors are better or worse than other classes. You should read my posts again, if you in fact were talking to me. (Which I assume considering you mentioned the hunter + lock)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Guys, 2/14 normal mode noob is trying to argue with warriors in world top 10 guilds. I smellz a troll. Or an idiot. Even I'm not going to bother mocking him by dismantling his idiotic rambling.
    No, they simply do not understand what my first point was. Warriors aren't even my discussion topic. I don't know why they brought it up.

    My first post was off-topic actually about wether or not AoE is more important than single target dps (for any class)


    And my sig is a joke.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Warriorsarri View Post
    If we look at the absolute top end of of raiding and players-skill, warriors are in the top5 of best classes this tier. If we look at pure single target, we would rank as either 3:rd or 4:th. The ranking goes as: WW/Feral>Rogue/Fury>rest

    For AoE, it's harder to rank, because there are so many different AoE situations that can come up.
    Burst AoE every 40s-1m, Fury is the strongest in the game.
    Constant AoE on 8targets, Arms is the strongest in the game.
    Constant cleave on 2targets, Arms is the strongest in the game.
    From my experience, Subtlety is quite easily ahead of everyone else in single target damage. Also, where are Destruction Warlocks? I think they might have the highest single target and cleave, actually. Boomkins? Not sure about Arcane since some of the nerfs but they were among the very top in single target damage as well.

    Warriors are REALLY good this tier though.
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  14. #54
    Herald of the Titans Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    I don't raid with warriors. At least not every raid unless we need a replacement. I'm not arguing about AoE dps being important or not. I think you misunderstand me completely.

    There is never a single target roof unless you kill the boss in 1 second. If you have 20mil dps, you can still make the fight easier by getting 30mil single target dps.

    Going from 50 to 100 mil AoE dps makes incredibly little difference unless the single target dps on the boss is increased at the same time.

    I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say since you bring up multiple completely irrelevant arguments.

    - - - Updated - - -



    We don't have always have a warrior in my group, I never said we did.

    I'm not saying warriors are better or worse than other classes. You should read my posts again, if you in fact were talking to me. (Which I assume considering you mentioned the hunter + lock)

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, they simply do not understand what my first point was. Warriors aren't even my discussion topic. I don't know why they brought it up.

    My first post was off-topic actually about wether or not AoE is more important than single target dps (for any class)


    And my sig is a joke.
    Likely because you are in a Warrior Forum, in a Warrior Thread, talking to Warriors, about Warriors. And you don't play one or raid with any. And we are supposed to believe you have any clue in the world as to what you are talking about.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I will elaborate: There is a single target roof, just like there is an "AoE" roof.

    The purpose of damage is to kill the target yes, but lets expand that a bit. It really doesn't matter how long it takes you to kill a target. Assuming infinite healing and no Enrage mechanic, you could have 1 person doing 1 dps and kill the boss. How long it takes is irrelevant. This applies to both AoE and ST.

    The "roof" (which is likely a bad word for it, but I will continue to use it as it was your descriptor) is dealing with the target in time that mechanics allow; ex: killing the boss within Berserk timer. As long as you kill the target before mechanics will adversely effect you, how quickly you kill the target is arbitrary, it doesn't matter. You can exceed that magic number; but falling below it is the problem (perhaps we should call it a floor! lol). The fight does not get any easier by killing it faster, unless there is some sort of stacking Enrage mechanic, it simply gets shorter; they are not necessarily the same thing.

    My arguments are not irrelevant simply because you choose to ignore them. Your arguments are flawed in a variety of ways, and you simply choose not to listen to what we were trying to point out, no matter how blunt we decide to be.

    You also forget, or ignore the fact, that 9/10 times, AoE damage effects the boss as well; so yes it is still useful and deals effective damage on target. For some classes more than others surely. Since we brought up Bladestorm many times; you likely do not know that Bladestorm is a single target dmg increase over the normal rotation outside of CS. Which means, when you aren't under the CS buff, Bladestorming does more damage than normal ST rotation, even against only one target.

    AoE can be more important than single target when the situation calls for it, its rare since most classes carry AoE abilities now, but it does happen, but that isn't even the point. The point is you can, will and should, get the best of both worlds. We aren't playing in BC anymore where Mages could only AoE and Ret Paladins couldn't. I guess in your raid group you never bring Enh Shamans, or Shadow Priests, or Ele Shaman or any other multi-roll damage dealer. And whats your progression again?... le surprise.

    You absolutely did say, and thinly eluded to your opinion that Warriors were worse than other classes, a couple times in fact. I would quote you but honestly I don't even care anymore. You came into a Warrior forum filled with some of the best Warriors in the game, and made yourself look like an idiot. Congratulations, please see the exit on your right.

  15. #55
    I admit I was one of the bigger whiners last tier. This tier, we really have nothing to complain about. From where we left off last tier, we are better in every aspect. Burst ST, Burst AOE, sustained AOE and even pure ST we are competive.

    Arguably, arms lose its purpose for later progression or when the raid and warrior becomes increasingly geared. The point remains that we have a top 5 position in every role. Plus, we have banners and more defensives than t15.

    We arent top.. and we arent the class to stack. You don't want to be number 1 spot because that will invite scrutiny and eventual nerfs. But hiding in top 5 is the best place to be imo
    Last edited by senturion; 2013-11-06 at 01:18 AM.

  16. #56
    High Overlord Jaceo's Avatar
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    Warriors are also the most fun to play IMO, this includes all three specs! I think we all sometimes get too caught up in what is the best or most viable etc. It's a game we play for fun and if you are play the top DPS but you hate the class how long do you think that will last?

    One of the things I still love about this game is when I see people stick to their original class because they enjoy it and then they make it work through being creative. Not the over powered class for arena but put together some strange comp/spec/talents and see what happens. Not the over powered class for raiding but do more research and tweaking to play better then your fellow raiders to make up for it!
    Last edited by Jaceo; 2013-11-06 at 04:13 AM.

  17. #57
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    We aren't playing in ToT anymore where Boomkins, warlocks, shadow priests and mages could AOE and Melee couldn't.
    Fixed it for you.

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