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  1. #301
    Pandaren Monk fengosa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    I have bolded the key point for you. That was Blizzard's first massive mistake and what started the steady slide of WoW into failure.
    Please don't pretend that anyone liked atunements or that they were good for the game. Story can be told a number of different ways.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by mightyshaman View Post
    http://wowsnatch.com/wp-content/plug...%2Byounkin.jpg

    Just check the link. It's more than obvious how Cata/Mop destroyed the game.
    Based on that Wrath made it better then anything before, yet when people bring up issues of the game they were features of Wrath.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
    Quote Originally Posted by fengosa View Post
    Stereotypes: it's easier than thinking.
    Good is the enemy of great.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    You don't like that kind of raiding? That's fine, you don't have to do it. But why do you not want to let me and my friends have that kind of content? And the WoW audience has decidedly regressed, not grown up. It seems to be a bunch of kids throwing crying fits if they are not handed everything for no effort.
    You do have that kind of raiding. Heroic raiding. You and your friends can do that content all you want.

  4. #304
    Is there a chance closing this thread? I would like to see the heads of idiots explode here. The whole discussion is based on an asshole who can not raid. Why dont you Idiots raid Siege of Orgrimmar?

    There is zero chance that the game will change in your favor. Iam sorry.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by fengosa View Post
    Ok, join a heroic raiding guild? There's no reason you can't have that experience just don't expect Blizzard to force your expectations on flex quality raiders.
    I was running a heroic raiding guild. It died, just like every other 25 man guild on my realm due to Blizzard idiotic "hey let's give the same rewards for half the effort" raid model in Cata. Heroic raiding does not give the same progression experience as TBC raiding did. It's challenging, sure, but it's not linear progression and just feels like a boring grind.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Marema View Post
    You do have that kind of raiding. Heroic raiding. You and your friends can do that content all you want.
    No. How many time do I need to explain the difference between heroic raiding and TBC raiding? Seriously, try reading and spend a few minutes trying to comprehend what you've read instead of trolling.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    I have bolded the key point for you. That was Blizzard's first massive mistake and what started the steady slide of WoW into failure.
    That was the best thing they did to this game you mean. Do you want to go back and do heroic MSV/TeS before you can go into heroic SoO? No? Didn't think so.

  7. #307
    Pandaren Monk fengosa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    I was running a heroic raiding guild. I died, just like every other 25 man guild on my realm due to Blizzard idiotic "hey let's give the same rewards for half the effort" raid model in Cata. Heroic raiding does not give the same progression experience as TBC raiding did. It's challenging, sure, but it's not linear progression and just feels like a boring grind.
    Realistically if you're playing the game the entire expansion you do the raids in order anyways? I don't see why forcing some people to do what most are already doing matters.

  8. #308
    Stood in the Fire
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    I agree mostly with the OP. And to the people that say 'if you don't like it, why don't you play another game?' , I can say, there are a number of good reasons why WoW's been losing subs over the last couple of years. I see those kind of remarks quite a lot, similar one is 'How does it affect you when someone else stops playing?'. If enough people stop playing, it does affect me.
    The opening post contains some of those reasons I think the sub numbers are down.

    Blizzard has said that the game starts at level cap and that levelling shouldn't be hard. Should it be mind-numbingly easy then?
    Last edited by Raysz; 2013-11-04 at 04:33 PM.

  9. #309
    Field Marshal leelad's Avatar
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    Not reading through 11 pages of arguments and counter arguments but i'd say (and i'm convinced that i am correct) that it's because you're nearly 10 years older and mentally and socially you're not in the same place you where all that time ago.

    I know i'm not. I have 2 kids and am 31 in a few days. I still get my kicks playing a month at a time and I can't praise the LFR feature enough for allowing me to still raid when it suits me and in small chunks and not have a group of other people depend on me to log at a certain time.

    Yeah my gear isn't amazing but an adult mind would accept that the game will likely grow and the gear I currently wear will be replaced by questing greens before long.

  10. #310
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Lets be honest, WoW in its current state is...

    Amazing, awesome, are those the words you are looking for?
    pretty horrible. Now I know that I'm just beating a dead horse here, and that this has been discussed a million of times, but what the hell, seems to be the go to topic nowadays, so I guess I'll drop my views on the problem and possible fixes to them.
    1. If the thread is beating a dead horse, maybe you shouldn't start it or post this in an already existing thread.
    2. "Possible fixes"? Don't fix it if it isn't broken.
    Difficulty.
    Group quests were also known as "invite your high level friend and get free awesome gear", good thing they got rid of that.

    Can I ask you what spec you were playing if you didn't have life-tap on your bars?
    Because my heirloom-geared Demonology alt goes out of mana quickly while leveling.

    All I see is one big rant about linearity and the removal of group-quests. What does that have to do with difficulty?
    And do you call it difficult because you have to find a class trainer because your abilities are 10 levels behind the zone you are running?
    If you really want to get into that "Classic feeling", you could just ask a random thug to break your mouse-arm. That's the same 'Classic feeling'.

    "Nowadays, you can realistically, after you hit max level just go to the AH, buy a couple of pieces to raise your iLvl , go do LFR and you're set. Damn."
    Really? Are you serious on that?

    Progression.
    Your view is really tainted, so don't complain when people call you nostalgic.
    Do you want to know my TBC path? Ding 70 > few heroics > Karazhan > Black Temple > Top DPS > SWP.

    "You doing LFR means, that you already fought the bosses, saw their mechanics, dialogues, lore in the LFR."
    Simple solution: DO NOT DO LFR!
    Why are people so blind to that simple solution to ALL of your problems? It's no freaking rocket science!
    You don't hit yourself on the head and then complain that the hammer hurts, this is exactly the same!

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Do you want to know my TBC path? Ding 70 > few heroics > Karazhan > Black Temple > Top DPS > SWP.
    Everyone posting on these forums is always "Top DPS". And what you described there is either getting carried or playing after the attunement removal, i.e., when Blizzard changed the model away from linear to their current failing model.

  12. #312
    The biggest Problem in this thread is: The OP trys to make his statement believable. And people actually believe in this bullshit.

  13. #313
    Funnily enough I am aware of that. And I tried it. And it doesn't work and it's not enjoyable.
    Many of the hardcore raiders today who have been raiding since the start disagree and still find it enjoyable.

    I cleared almost all heroics from WotLK to Cata when I was playing.
    Link me the armory of the toon you cleared every heroic raid from wrath- cata while they were current. Because I'm just going to take a wild guess and say you've only cleared LFR and based your opinion off of that.

    Complaining just to complain? Why would I do that? I'm not playing the game, I'm just explaining why I (along with most of my friends) left the game.
    You're bitching just to complain. You say "this game has no more progression raiding" <--- yeah okay, someone obviously has never cleared a heroic raid while it was current.

    They made the progression linear. Removing them removed that linearity, meaning that you no longer had to clear end bosses. The immediate effect was that most guilds that hadn't killed Vashj and Kael by that point just skipped them entirely, and missed out on the two best fights in TBC.
    Vashj? Best fight in TBC? Not even close lol. If they wanted to experience those fights, they would do so. You're just looking for ways to force players to do what you want them to do. The fights were old content, doing old content while it is old will never be as rewarding and satisfying as doing them when it was current.

  14. #314
    Dreadlord Kanariya's Avatar
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    As expected, the Blizz-can-do-no-wrong fanboys are in full force here.

  15. #315
    Bloodsail Admiral ShadowForge's Avatar
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    the reason for wow's downfall from previous expansions before cata is the fact that wow is gettingm ore console gamers on it and if they ccant 1 shot something or do something they bitch on the forums and ask blizz to fix it i mean look at how many times LFR bosses have been nerfed and LFR isnt even hard

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    No. How many time do I need to explain the difference between heroic raiding and TBC raiding? Seriously, try reading and spend a few minutes trying to comprehend what you've read instead of trolling.
    Pretty sure you're the one that is trolling now. TBC raiding was hard. Heroic raiding is hard. The only difference is the name it is given. You're too hung up on the words 'normal' and 'heroic'.

    While you and your friends are off playing candycrush me and my friends are having a good time and very glad that the BC days are over.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Everyone posting on these forums is always "Top DPS". And what you described there is either getting carried or playing after the attunement removal, i.e., when Blizzard changed the model away from linear to their current failing model.
    Just like everybody on this forum leads 25 man hardmodes until 'Blizzard' does something to screw it up.

  17. #317
    High Overlord Pippo89's Avatar
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    They need to stop such huge raids, better split up those number of bosss in different raids, not wings and much less linear!

    I'm playing since Classic, and yes I also admired Ulduar, but come on Throne hat 13 non-linear bosses on heroic and after that we get another non-linear 14 boss-raid. WTF???

    The only way to choose boss order in this gigantic raid is: Siegecrafter or Spoils. That's so lame. Every week the same "shit" in the same order.
    Ulduar just did it damn right! Blizzard said they'll make another like Ulduar and then they released Throne. Good joke blizzard...
    Ulduar had a great environment, good fights, hardmodes, it had optional bosses and a questline/hardmode-only boss.
    Even the teleporter system felt more logic, because you at least had to choose where to get teleported. T
    he new teleport system in ToT and now SoO just does not contribute to a good atmosphere imo... But that's not as important as the other things.

    Throne heroic: 13 bosses, 100% non-linear
    Siege of Orgrimmar heroic: 14 bosses, 90% non-linear

    The raids as a whole were not bad, I'm not saying that. But I don't understand why two big raids are released with almost no way to choose boss order.

    As someone said, 1 raid with 4 difficulties is just lame after a while.
    The first three raids were cool. Small, different themes and with delayed releases, yet ilvls not too far away from each other.
    They were non-linear too, yes. But at least you could choose which raid to enter!

    Vale of Eternal Sorrow could've been an extra raid, with the bosses slighty more tuned on Normal, especially the Sha of Pride. He's just too damn weak on Normal. Heck, I would've been happy if it's Terrace 2.0 (4 bosses, and they're easier than the other content - at least on Normal :P).

    After that, the real Siege of Orgrimmar raid could have started. But with more non-linear bosses like Siegecrafter or Spoils.. Galakras or Juggernaut first? Why not?

    I'm just a huge fan of alternation. I hate doing the same order over and over again. Especially within those huge raids.
    The roots of evil are deep. Irreversibly so in the hearts of men.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    I was running a heroic raiding guild. It died, just like every other 25 man guild on my realm due to Blizzard idiotic "hey let's give the same rewards for half the effort" raid model in Cata. Heroic raiding does not give the same progression experience as TBC raiding did. It's challenging, sure, but it's not linear progression and just feels like a boring grind.
    Yeah, I'm just going to take a shot out of the can and say you never raiding heroics and if you did, you killed the first few bosses after the next tier had already came out and based your opinion off of that.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Marema View Post
    Pretty sure you're the one that is trolling now. TBC raiding was hard. Heroic raiding is hard. The only difference is the name it is given. You're too hung up on the words 'normal' and 'heroic'.
    Are you trolling? I have made ZERO complaints about difficulty. I even explicitly said the difficulty was comparable. The whole argument I'm making over and over is about linear progression. How can you possibly fail this badly at reading comprehension?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    Yeah, I'm just going to take a shot out of the can and say you never raiding heroics and if you did, you killed the first few bosses after the next tier had already came out and based your opinion off of that.
    And you would be completely wrong. I guess it's pointless to argue with you further if you're basing your arguments on incorrect assumptions.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    I think the game is better than ever. You're not expected to play for six hours per day to keep up anymore. You can just run a couple of dungeons and spend two or three nights raiding, without feeling like you're missing out on half the content because you didn't spend 18 hours grinding that reputation for that enchant.

    Also, in case you've forgotten it, vanilla was a buggy unbalanced mess. No point in bringing more than one of some classes to raids, some specs and races were ludicrously overpowered in PvP, and most specs utterly useless in the endgame, but that's fine because you're stuck looting and can't do anything anyway. Oh, and you can't get to the raid instance anyway because the flightpath doesn't launch and you get a super fast ground mount that you can't dismount from instead, until you touch something and the game crashes. At least that saves you the trouble of spending fifteen minutes flying from Undercity to Badlands, unable go AFK as you had to click again for each stretch since the flight masters weren't connected yet.
    Your first paragraph is exactly what I tried to address. Sure, you can play for 2 hours a day. Fine. But what do you do in the end? Nothing cause you drained it already by just playing those measly 2 hours a day instead of splitting those 16 hours to 2 hour chunks and thus having a longer gameplay experience.

    As for the balance. I never stated that vanilla was in any way perfectly balanced. The game still isin't. Doesn't mean that made the game worse back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrHappy View Post
    few things

    1) Questing.

    If you wanted to see how bad questing used to be compared to now....go to outland. nuff said. Maybe it is not difficult as it used to be and quicker...but we also have almost a full set of BoA's and 25 more levels above what you used to be in vanila. Also questing SEEMED longer because you had a "wtf am I supposed to do now?" and go read on sites where now you are pointed in general area. Honestly if you take off all BoA's and bother to READ the quest text the story has gotten a hell of a lot better and since re-vamp in Cataclysm there are few quests that are very memorable (Questgiver quest and The day Deathwing came)...I don't remember very memorable quests in vanila except AQ stuff. Vanila was an endless grind fest. Think Shao Hao rep on Timeless island...but for everything.

    2) Dungeons.

    Yes they were harder and longer but again the difficulty was due to fact we had no BoA's to speak of. Compare the Damage/Healing output to a toon with and without and Dungeons just got a lot harder and longer. Length of time was also because you sat in trade "LFM for RFK need tank and heals" for 2h then had to fly/run there to summon have someone go afk/DC mid instance hearth to trade and repeat the process for 5h till you get the blue ring to replace the copper one you bought from ah/crafted it after 20min of farming ores.

    CM were designed to give you a challenge. If you friends/guilds don't want that there is OQ and Openraid. Regular LFG is a break in questing and lore bits. Not meant to pose a level of difficulty

    I agree that there should be a level of difficulty that you can scale if you are doing it with friends (kind of like Monster Power in D3) that could give more VP/JP more loot etc that is not just a timed run of CM but time will tell if we see something like that.

    3)Personally I prefer hitting 90 and getting a set of epics that would allow me to run current content of LFR (a system like the gear you get from Timeless Island)

    If I want my alt to raid I don't want to waste time running previous tiers to catch up to LFR of current content to run that for weeks to get gear so i can be of use in my alt runs on normal. It goes back to the point of vanila being a grindf est and artificial gateways in BC raiding. No I don't want my fresh 90 to take a month to even attempt current shit. Not everyone wants to/capable of getting carried in normals to gear me out (unless they desperately need it) I think catch up system like Timeless Island is a godsend for alts.

    4) Personally I love what the game has become and I will continue to play untill I stop having fun. Before things seemed harder due to the time you had to put in not because it was actually required skill.

    This game has been out for 8 years....it is only natural that some people get tired of playing the same game for that long and there is only so much that can be done to keep people interested in it. WoW isn't dying...some people's interest in it is...and that is fine. Play other games that make you happy and where you have fun. After all that is what games are about. There is no point in trying to get wow to change with "back in my day" stuff because it will continue to evolve whether you like it or not. Back in my day I had a 128 MB hard drive and saved my Word Docs on a 3.5inch floppy disk. Fact that I had to wait for my PC to display "It is now safe to turn off your PC" did not make it a better PC than what I am using atm. Things change , people grow up and move on. If you are not having fun OP look for something where you would

    The game is not perfect but it is sure as hell a lot better than it ever was...by a mile and for a lot of people. If you are not one of them then the problem is your perception and not the game itself. I'm not saying your opinion is not valid ...just different from others who enjoy this game.

    My suggestion is to take a break, play something else. We'll leave a light on for you if you decide to come back. I"m having fun in WoW and will stick with it untill I won't be

    That is my $0.02

    Cheers
    1. Leveling in TBC also took the linearity, although not as insane as Pandaria. I didn't say it was amazing either. I did and didn't use BoA's on different character while leveling. Doesn't chage much, still mind numbing regardless of what you use.

    2. Searching for people wasn't necessarily a horrible thing. Tedious for some, but it provided you with those extra minutes of something to do other than quest.
    And todays dungeons with BoA or without is still a joke, sorry.

    3. Sure, that's fine. I can see why some people like it the way it is currently. I'm just discussing the long terms prospects of such a progression.

    4. That's fine, and I completely respect that. You might still enjoy the game and it's understandable. The game is still the best MMO there and still has interesting parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    And you have to grind LFR unless you just get unbelievable lucky on drops. Your argument still stands flawed. You don't even have to run LFR, you can grind VP and JP if you wanted and go directly to flex or something.

    There's plenty of grinding still here in the game, you're just looking for small pieces to bitch and complain about.
    I wouldn't call logging in 2 hours per reset to do LFR is exactly grindy or even a gameplay experience at that.
    Yes, I don't have to run LFR I can just do dungeons(see the mind numbing part). But it'll still feel incomplete, because while I'm doing these dungeons, mindlessly aoe'ing packs and killing these easy bosses, I can see other people just get free gear from timeless isle/lfr. That kills the progression aspect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyviroth View Post
    Sorry, I don't believe in your biased "honesty". I believe in facts and figures.

    A game that has 8 million subscribers cannot "honestly" be horrible. what's "horrible" is its playerbase and fanbase.
    It's my opinion. Although there are facts. Numbers, figures, other posts supporting such claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    For some strange reason, you fail to catch the point of the post. He complained that making the game generally easier from BC onward is what made subs go down. But that is where he was wrong since wrath started to make the game easier by making raids more accessible for "casuals", making BoAs to make leveling easier etc etc which in this time of the game where it had more subs than in BC so "making the game easier" is not a valid reason for the sub decrease. Although the difficulty of high end raiding (heroic raiding) have not really changed since BC. The age of the game is the only valid reason for the sub decrease.

    I'm really having a hard time understanding the point you're trying to get across. But if I had a guess, I'd just say you were bitching and complaining about nothing really.
    No, you didn't catch my post. I didn't complain about the difficulty of anything apart from dungeon and leveling. My biggest complaint though, was the removal of real progression.
    And the game grew all the way from vanilla -> TBC -> end of wrath. It's not making the game more accesible that made it grow if it was already growing in TBC and vanilla now is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mush View Post


    There never has been in WoW, the end game of PVE is not dungeons, it is raiding. FACT

    Raiding has always been about grinding, Hence gear treadmill, the only thing that is changed is that there is more options now. If LFR is too easy move to flex if flex is too easy move to norm, if norm is too easy move to HC. FACT
    Dungeons weren't endgame, never was stated otherwise. They were the KEY into endgame. Served a purpose, and a good one at that. Now they're more or less useless.

    I already addressed the LFR -> Flex - > Normal - > Heroic in the OP, and why it can be tedious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razecog View Post
    So you want everyone to run MSV, HoF, ToES AND ToT before they can even enter SoO? Yeeeeeeeeeeeah no.
    Yes, that's exactly what it is. Getting gear(progressing) all the way up to current tier. Which keeps you going, and keeps the game interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnseven View Post
    ^^ This

    Seriously OP. Matchbox cars are not fail because you got bored with them by the time you were 7. Legos are not fail because you got bored with them by the time you were 12... and WoW isn't fail because you got bored with it after 9 years.
    Comparing Legos and matchbox car to WoW is a pretty terrible comparison. People play games at any age, hell, some even play it in their 60's. You don't really find people in their 60's playing Legos unless it's with their children or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by alphahunter View Post
    Only because you write "FACT" it istn a fact... you should better read a book instead of playing WoW...
    I didn't write facts.
    Last edited by newlineGet; 2013-11-04 at 05:41 PM.

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