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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Marema View Post
    Pretty sure you're the one that is trolling now. TBC raiding was hard. Heroic raiding is hard. The only difference is the name it is given. You're too hung up on the words 'normal' and 'heroic'.
    Are you trolling? I have made ZERO complaints about difficulty. I even explicitly said the difficulty was comparable. The whole argument I'm making over and over is about linear progression. How can you possibly fail this badly at reading comprehension?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    Yeah, I'm just going to take a shot out of the can and say you never raiding heroics and if you did, you killed the first few bosses after the next tier had already came out and based your opinion off of that.
    And you would be completely wrong. I guess it's pointless to argue with you further if you're basing your arguments on incorrect assumptions.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Alltat View Post
    I think the game is better than ever. You're not expected to play for six hours per day to keep up anymore. You can just run a couple of dungeons and spend two or three nights raiding, without feeling like you're missing out on half the content because you didn't spend 18 hours grinding that reputation for that enchant.

    Also, in case you've forgotten it, vanilla was a buggy unbalanced mess. No point in bringing more than one of some classes to raids, some specs and races were ludicrously overpowered in PvP, and most specs utterly useless in the endgame, but that's fine because you're stuck looting and can't do anything anyway. Oh, and you can't get to the raid instance anyway because the flightpath doesn't launch and you get a super fast ground mount that you can't dismount from instead, until you touch something and the game crashes. At least that saves you the trouble of spending fifteen minutes flying from Undercity to Badlands, unable go AFK as you had to click again for each stretch since the flight masters weren't connected yet.
    Your first paragraph is exactly what I tried to address. Sure, you can play for 2 hours a day. Fine. But what do you do in the end? Nothing cause you drained it already by just playing those measly 2 hours a day instead of splitting those 16 hours to 2 hour chunks and thus having a longer gameplay experience.

    As for the balance. I never stated that vanilla was in any way perfectly balanced. The game still isin't. Doesn't mean that made the game worse back then.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrHappy View Post
    few things

    1) Questing.

    If you wanted to see how bad questing used to be compared to now....go to outland. nuff said. Maybe it is not difficult as it used to be and quicker...but we also have almost a full set of BoA's and 25 more levels above what you used to be in vanila. Also questing SEEMED longer because you had a "wtf am I supposed to do now?" and go read on sites where now you are pointed in general area. Honestly if you take off all BoA's and bother to READ the quest text the story has gotten a hell of a lot better and since re-vamp in Cataclysm there are few quests that are very memorable (Questgiver quest and The day Deathwing came)...I don't remember very memorable quests in vanila except AQ stuff. Vanila was an endless grind fest. Think Shao Hao rep on Timeless island...but for everything.

    2) Dungeons.

    Yes they were harder and longer but again the difficulty was due to fact we had no BoA's to speak of. Compare the Damage/Healing output to a toon with and without and Dungeons just got a lot harder and longer. Length of time was also because you sat in trade "LFM for RFK need tank and heals" for 2h then had to fly/run there to summon have someone go afk/DC mid instance hearth to trade and repeat the process for 5h till you get the blue ring to replace the copper one you bought from ah/crafted it after 20min of farming ores.

    CM were designed to give you a challenge. If you friends/guilds don't want that there is OQ and Openraid. Regular LFG is a break in questing and lore bits. Not meant to pose a level of difficulty

    I agree that there should be a level of difficulty that you can scale if you are doing it with friends (kind of like Monster Power in D3) that could give more VP/JP more loot etc that is not just a timed run of CM but time will tell if we see something like that.

    3)Personally I prefer hitting 90 and getting a set of epics that would allow me to run current content of LFR (a system like the gear you get from Timeless Island)

    If I want my alt to raid I don't want to waste time running previous tiers to catch up to LFR of current content to run that for weeks to get gear so i can be of use in my alt runs on normal. It goes back to the point of vanila being a grindf est and artificial gateways in BC raiding. No I don't want my fresh 90 to take a month to even attempt current shit. Not everyone wants to/capable of getting carried in normals to gear me out (unless they desperately need it) I think catch up system like Timeless Island is a godsend for alts.

    4) Personally I love what the game has become and I will continue to play untill I stop having fun. Before things seemed harder due to the time you had to put in not because it was actually required skill.

    This game has been out for 8 years....it is only natural that some people get tired of playing the same game for that long and there is only so much that can be done to keep people interested in it. WoW isn't dying...some people's interest in it is...and that is fine. Play other games that make you happy and where you have fun. After all that is what games are about. There is no point in trying to get wow to change with "back in my day" stuff because it will continue to evolve whether you like it or not. Back in my day I had a 128 MB hard drive and saved my Word Docs on a 3.5inch floppy disk. Fact that I had to wait for my PC to display "It is now safe to turn off your PC" did not make it a better PC than what I am using atm. Things change , people grow up and move on. If you are not having fun OP look for something where you would

    The game is not perfect but it is sure as hell a lot better than it ever was...by a mile and for a lot of people. If you are not one of them then the problem is your perception and not the game itself. I'm not saying your opinion is not valid ...just different from others who enjoy this game.

    My suggestion is to take a break, play something else. We'll leave a light on for you if you decide to come back. I"m having fun in WoW and will stick with it untill I won't be

    That is my $0.02

    Cheers
    1. Leveling in TBC also took the linearity, although not as insane as Pandaria. I didn't say it was amazing either. I did and didn't use BoA's on different character while leveling. Doesn't chage much, still mind numbing regardless of what you use.

    2. Searching for people wasn't necessarily a horrible thing. Tedious for some, but it provided you with those extra minutes of something to do other than quest.
    And todays dungeons with BoA or without is still a joke, sorry.

    3. Sure, that's fine. I can see why some people like it the way it is currently. I'm just discussing the long terms prospects of such a progression.

    4. That's fine, and I completely respect that. You might still enjoy the game and it's understandable. The game is still the best MMO there and still has interesting parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    And you have to grind LFR unless you just get unbelievable lucky on drops. Your argument still stands flawed. You don't even have to run LFR, you can grind VP and JP if you wanted and go directly to flex or something.

    There's plenty of grinding still here in the game, you're just looking for small pieces to bitch and complain about.
    I wouldn't call logging in 2 hours per reset to do LFR is exactly grindy or even a gameplay experience at that.
    Yes, I don't have to run LFR I can just do dungeons(see the mind numbing part). But it'll still feel incomplete, because while I'm doing these dungeons, mindlessly aoe'ing packs and killing these easy bosses, I can see other people just get free gear from timeless isle/lfr. That kills the progression aspect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyviroth View Post
    Sorry, I don't believe in your biased "honesty". I believe in facts and figures.

    A game that has 8 million subscribers cannot "honestly" be horrible. what's "horrible" is its playerbase and fanbase.
    It's my opinion. Although there are facts. Numbers, figures, other posts supporting such claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    For some strange reason, you fail to catch the point of the post. He complained that making the game generally easier from BC onward is what made subs go down. But that is where he was wrong since wrath started to make the game easier by making raids more accessible for "casuals", making BoAs to make leveling easier etc etc which in this time of the game where it had more subs than in BC so "making the game easier" is not a valid reason for the sub decrease. Although the difficulty of high end raiding (heroic raiding) have not really changed since BC. The age of the game is the only valid reason for the sub decrease.

    I'm really having a hard time understanding the point you're trying to get across. But if I had a guess, I'd just say you were bitching and complaining about nothing really.
    No, you didn't catch my post. I didn't complain about the difficulty of anything apart from dungeon and leveling. My biggest complaint though, was the removal of real progression.
    And the game grew all the way from vanilla -> TBC -> end of wrath. It's not making the game more accesible that made it grow if it was already growing in TBC and vanilla now is it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mush View Post


    There never has been in WoW, the end game of PVE is not dungeons, it is raiding. FACT

    Raiding has always been about grinding, Hence gear treadmill, the only thing that is changed is that there is more options now. If LFR is too easy move to flex if flex is too easy move to norm, if norm is too easy move to HC. FACT
    Dungeons weren't endgame, never was stated otherwise. They were the KEY into endgame. Served a purpose, and a good one at that. Now they're more or less useless.

    I already addressed the LFR -> Flex - > Normal - > Heroic in the OP, and why it can be tedious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razecog View Post
    So you want everyone to run MSV, HoF, ToES AND ToT before they can even enter SoO? Yeeeeeeeeeeeah no.
    Yes, that's exactly what it is. Getting gear(progressing) all the way up to current tier. Which keeps you going, and keeps the game interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnseven View Post
    ^^ This

    Seriously OP. Matchbox cars are not fail because you got bored with them by the time you were 7. Legos are not fail because you got bored with them by the time you were 12... and WoW isn't fail because you got bored with it after 9 years.
    Comparing Legos and matchbox car to WoW is a pretty terrible comparison. People play games at any age, hell, some even play it in their 60's. You don't really find people in their 60's playing Legos unless it's with their children or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by alphahunter View Post
    Only because you write "FACT" it istn a fact... you should better read a book instead of playing WoW...
    I didn't write facts.
    Last edited by newlineGet; 2013-11-04 at 05:41 PM.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Mush View Post
    Heroic raiding. If you haven't got 14/14HC you can't talk shit about how difficult it is. FACT



    There never has been in WoW, the end game of PVE is not dungeons, it is raiding. FACT



    Raiding has always been about grinding, Hence gear treadmill, the only thing that is changed is that there is more options now. If LFR is too easy move to flex if flex is too easy move to norm, if norm is too easy move to HC. FACT



    Apples ≠ Oranges. FACT

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    But if you also raided from the start to finish of an expansion then it wouldn't matter if that was the case.

    You seem to keep getting caught up on what other people are doing to play the game when you should be worried about yourself.
    Well said on all counts. And yeah, that last line seems to be the big issue raid finder haters have. Heaven forbid others have fun.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    you would be completely wrong. I guess it's pointless to argue with you further if you're basing your arguments on incorrect assumptions.
    Why don't you go ahead and link us your armory, sport?


    Are you trolling? I have made ZERO complaints about difficulty. I even explicitly said the difficulty was comparable. The whole argument I'm making over and over is about linear progression. How can you possibly fail this badly at reading comprehension?
    "BC raiding was more enjoyable because you had to clear the last tier before you did the next tier"

    I do not see how that makes a raid more enjoyable.

  5. #325

    How to fix it?

    I agree with you on almost everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by newlineGet View Post
    How do we fix this? Honestly at this point, it's hard to say if we can fix this. Look at Cata's heroics for instance. They were probably the closest you can get to vanilla/tbc dungeons, and what happened? QQ shitstorm everywhere. The game has has just changed too much to back to where we started. So the only thing I deem possible - a vanilla server. Look at it as more of a test, to see which way the game is actually better off and what do people enjoy more.
    I have an Idea about how to fix it. It's gonna take some bravery.
    First off, it can't be a hard cut, it has to be relatively gradual.
    Step 1: make level 91 mobs a little tough. We're talking get you to half health if you're wearing greens tough.
    Step 2: Make level 93+ mobs real tough. I'm talking about giving them abilities that stack. Say you have three enemies in a pack. Two of them debuff you against poison damage and the third one(with extra health so u dont just burn it down) has heavy poison damage, non-interruptable. so You have to use cc while questing. and taking on more than 2 mobs at a time is really tough. 4+ is almost assured suicide. This forces players to re-learn how to play. And we do it gradually, so its not off-putting.
    Step 3: Have end-game dungeons and heroic dungeons. Make end game dungeons as hard as heroics were in wotlk. Make heroics legitimately challenging for people in all blues from normal max level dungeons. Make the achievements for siad dungeons grant you titles and sparkle ponies and only be doable in full epic raiding gear. Dungeons are the core of the Wow experience for most players. Hard, challenging, engaging dungeons are what they want. Make some harder than others, of course, and make those drop weapons.
    Step 4: Make epics rarer. You get to max level Cool. Start working on your first set of blues. Have non-set pieces dropped from every boss in dungeons. Have set pieces be 4 ilevels higher and dropped from end bosses of dungeons. Then have a shared rep that you can grind from any dungeon. Have that reward heroic level blues. Have the heroic drop heroic blues, and the end bosses drop an item that you can turn in 8-10 or so of + like 100 of trade resource(metal,herbs,cloth, etc) for an epic piece or for sparkle pony rewards. This adds a diverse set of rewards to dungeons and heroic dungeons and ensure that raiders will run heroics occasionally and help out the inexperienced players.
    Step 5: raiding. The first boss should be tuned to killable after a few hours if your team is in full heroic blues. Main issue should be dodging mechanics or a kill order to figure out, possibly a consumable found by clearing trash a little out of the way debuffs the boss slightly. Second boss should be a dps check of some sort. It shouldn't be terribly difficult. Doable in full heroic gear, but only barely. all other bosses should be tuned to where the average raiders get to progress at about a boss a week if they don't make silly mistakes, and you get some epics from the previous bosses + heroic rewards. This will lead to much slower progression, yes. But also, a feeling of accomplishment. Also, bosses should not be loot pinatas. Two items drop for 10 man, and 5-6 from 25 man. But make the bosses also drop a collectible item. After Bracers buyable for 4, shoulders, helm chest for 10, weapon for 12, and all else for 8 or so. And make these 4 ilevels below dropable gear.
    Step 6: Get rid of LFR. It's only redeemable feature was making it super easy to see the content so you could play wow without any investment,s ee the bosses, and log out till next patch. It's a suicide pill for your game. Ax it.
    Step 7: Timey wimey fluctuations mean you cannot bring your flying mounts with you into the past and use them in draenor. You will be rinding ground based steeds, and will no longer be able to ignore content on the ground, which is like half of the game. The world is more immersive and fun when you actually have to traverse it and explore it.
    Step 8: Give 5 man world bosses that drop a mcguffin that is needed by raiders. perhaps an item that is required to make end game crafting gear.
    Step 9: make side bosses in raids. Make them drop plans for crafting. Make these dropped plans better than 90% of what you can get in the raid. Make it take items dropped from all the bosses( if there's 8 raid bosses, make it take 8 raid items) make it take like 5 world boss crafting items, and make it take like 60+ gatherable crafting mats. Make it like a belt or boots or something. And make it BOE.
    Step 10: Take away all the dang self healing in pvp. Make non healers's heals heal for less in combat. Give stamina like twice the budget you ever gave it before. This makes fights longer for dps classes, and give the chance for skill to matter more. Also on healing. Make healers heal for about the same as a normal player can dps. If they are spamming heals sitting still, a few stuns and a mortal strike style debuff should be dead after about 30 secs. Also, we have dual spec. healers do not need to be able to dps. Arenas: add in more buffs. Put them in areas you don't normall go. Have them do like 20% less damage taken, or 20% more damage done. Adds an element of strategy. Do I save my cc for when the buff spawns, or blow it now and try to get a kill?

    These alone would make the game badass. perhaps the best expansion yet. Oh, and bring back some of them server wide pve things. Like AQ or Isle of quel'danas. Something we all work towards and different servers complete at different speeds.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Are you trolling? I have made ZERO complaints about difficulty. I even explicitly said the difficulty was comparable. The whole argument I'm making over and over is about linear progression. How can you possibly fail this badly at reading comprehension?
    You complained about the multiple raid difficulties. You have a short memory.

  7. #327
    How do we fix this? Honestly at this point, it's hard to say if we can fix this. Look at Cata's heroics for instance. They were probably the closest you can get to vanilla/tbc dungeons, and what happened? QQ shitstorm everywhere. The game has has just changed too much to back to where we started. So the only thing I deem possible - a vanilla server. Look at it as more of a test, to see which way the game is actually better off and what do people enjoy more.
    Do you really want to go back to vanilla? Offcourse vanilla felt epic cause when you never ever thouched an mmo and started your first char i took you forever to level to 60 and thinking back you find was the best experience ever compared to now. But think about the other side of the medal, travel 45-60 minutes for just 5% experience. Dying 20 minutes on one quest, cause you didnt used the correct spells or your gear isnt high enough to just to complete that one quest. Hitting level 40 and realizing you dont have enough gold to buy your mount.

    Have a full actionbar filled with lesser healing rank 1 to 6 and greater healing from rank 1 to 6 and during a raid/dungeon you had to determe what spell should i use to not get oom in your current gear. Starting a 40 man raid took you one hour to form and get all 40 people to the instance fully buffed with food etc... and realizing 4 of them didnt have correct gear with them and need to go back to town or change their talents or the 1 person that just pulled whatever he wanted. 25 people hardly know the tactics of the fight.

    Im not saying vanilla was complete shit! The social aspect of the game was so good i want it back. Starting a dungeon with 5-10 other random people and end up with adding 2 to your friendlist because you felt they were good and so you formed a personal friendlist with people you liked and where you can count on to do dungeons and raids to have the best possible experience. But people tend to forget from where we come and how the game evolved in a good or bad way.

    P.S: fastest character to level from 1-60 took roughly 5 days. If you play 2 hours a day it would take you 60 actuall days to reach level 60

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by dgrimm121 View Post
    I have an Idea about how to fix it. It's gonna take some bravery.
    First off, it can't be a hard cut, it has to be relatively gradual.
    Step 1: make level 91 mobs a little tough. We're talking get you to half health if you're wearing greens tough.
    Step 2: Make level 93+ mobs real tough. I'm talking about giving them abilities that stack. Say you have three enemies in a pack. Two of them debuff you against poison damage and the third one(with extra health so u dont just burn it down) has heavy poison damage, non-interruptable. so You have to use cc while questing. and taking on more than 2 mobs at a time is really tough. 4+ is almost assured suicide. This forces players to re-learn how to play. And we do it gradually, so its not off-putting.
    You know, that's exactly what they did in Cata beta. But they very quickly nerfed it before it even went live, like divided the damage of all the mobs by 2 or 3. It's a shame personally, cause I found the leveling way more interesting with the high damage values. 80 to 85 never killed me, and took me what, 10 hours? From 85 to 90 I never died even once either and it barely took me 9 hours or so? I hate this leveling system

    RIPIP Mindbenders in Vashj'ir and those mobs in Deepholm that had 150k lava bursts ;_;

    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    "BC raiding was more enjoyable because you had to clear the last tier before you did the next tier"

    I do not see how that makes a raid more enjoyable.
    Honestly, it just takes a tiny wee bit of care for the immersion. You don't have to be a roleplayer or anything to be more thrilled to kill a badass villain for the first time compared to killing it in its masochist +50% health/damage mode after already having him on farm in easier difficulties.
    I feel absolutely nothing when killing bosses now. Comparatively, of course. I just check if they dropped good loot and enjoy the good time with guildies, but no emotions at all about beating the game itself.
    Last edited by Mionelol; 2013-11-04 at 04:53 PM.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by newlineGet View Post
    I wouldn't call logging in 2 hours per reset to do LFR is exactly grindy or even a gameplay experience at that.
    Yes, I don't have to run LFR I can just do dungeons(see the mind numbing part). But it'll still feel incomplete, because while I'm doing these dungeons, mindlessly aoe'ing packs and killing these easy bosses, I can see other people just get free gear from timeless isle/lfr. That kills the progression aspect.
    2 hours a week on LFR? Yeah okay. Reason I do not do LFR because clearing all 4 wings of SoO takes way longer than it does the clear it on normal.

    If you are a fresh 90 and want to get into heroic raiding, you have a shitton of grinding to do.
    1#must grind all wings of LFR from every tier for legendary cloak for 2-3 month which will take you much much longer than 2 hours per week.
    2#Must grind all wings of flex for gear upgrades every week.
    3#Spend countless hours on timeless isle grinding for epics.
    4#Try to find normal pugs every week and any pieces you do not get, you must grind flex and LFR.
    5# Spend a few hours grinding Black Prince rep for legendary.
    6# Spending an hour or 2 doing all the Isle of Thunder solo scenarios for legendary.
    #7 repeat for any alts you want to gear up.

    If you want any nice titles/mounts/achievements then you have even more grinding to do.

  10. #330
    A lot fo the problems with vanilla were with the inexperience of the playerbase back then.The playerbase has matured substantially since then. Having a vanilla or bc style expansion would probably be amazing. In order to have social interaction, you have to have a need for it. That means you will lose some convenience. As it stands, they have removed the other players from the game and put you on training wheels.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Amazing, awesome, are those the words you are looking for?

    1. If the thread is beating a dead horse, maybe you shouldn't start it or post this in an already existing thread.
    2. "Possible fixes"? Don't fix it if it isn't broken.

    Group quests were also known as "invite your high level friend and get free awesome gear", good thing they got rid of that.

    Can I ask you what spec you were playing if you didn't have life-tap on your bars?
    Because my heirloom-geared Demonology alt goes out of mana quickly while leveling.

    All I see is one big rant about linearity and the removal of group-quests. What does that have to do with difficulty?
    And do you call it difficult because you have to find a class trainer because your abilities are 10 levels behind the zone you are running?
    If you really want to get into that "Classic feeling", you could just ask a random thug to break your mouse-arm. That's the same 'Classic feeling'.

    "Nowadays, you can realistically, after you hit max level just go to the AH, buy a couple of pieces to raise your iLvl , go do LFR and you're set. Damn."
    Really? Are you serious on that?


    Your view is really tainted, so don't complain when people call you nostalgic.
    Do you want to know my TBC path? Ding 70 > few heroics > Karazhan > Black Temple > Top DPS > SWP.

    "You doing LFR means, that you already fought the bosses, saw their mechanics, dialogues, lore in the LFR."
    Simple solution: DO NOT DO LFR!
    Why are people so blind to that simple solution to ALL of your problems? It's no freaking rocket science!
    You don't hit yourself on the head and then complain that the hammer hurts, this is exactly the same!
    Funny how you said if it isin't broken don't fix it. The way everything worked in vanilla, tbc, wrath was fine and the game was growing. Didn't seem like it needed fixing.

    Group quests are what you make of them. Sure, you could invite a higher level to kill the mob for you. You could do the same thing with dungeons. It isin't that though, it's about the leveling experience and choices.

    I leveled as a non BoA demo lock, mass pulling everything. And yes, I did not have life tap on my bars the whole way through. The new HP/MP regen is enough to keep you from stopping to think until you have the gear to avoid this problem.

    "All I see is one big rant about linearity and the removal of group-quests. What does that have to do with difficulty?". Nothing, it's about dullness.

    "Really? Are you serious on that?". Yes I am. Me and many other people have done it.

    "Do you want to know my TBC path?". If you ran those heroics at the end of the exp, with overgeared people then yea, that path might be possible. Even then, your described path looks more complex and time consuming than the current model.

    "Simple solution: DO NOT DO LFR!". Sure. I can run those overdumbed heroics instead for 20 minutes each. Fine. Won't take much effort nor will it consume much time, will only have me less geared.

  12. #332
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    Very good post, I must say I totally agree. People who whine and say "oh go play something else", why should he? He obviously still love this game for what it once was and hates to see it ruined. Wow has been around for such a long time and people have built a relation to it that they won't give up without a fight. I love the world of Warcraft for what it once was, I love the Warcraft universe and it is my favorite game of all time, I won't give up trying to restore it to its former glory until the last server is shut down.

    There is a reason TBC was the most popular expansion, you actually had to play the game back then, you had always had something to look forward to. Now? The only thing there is to look forward to is that someday the game will be as challenging as it was during the golden days.

  13. #333
    I love when casuals say this game is "easy"
    Sorry, where are you in terms of Heroic progression and racing for world firsts?
    Oh nowhere.
    People who claim it's easy take months to get anywhere in progress and stick with LFR/Now flex.
    Of course it's "easy" that's what those are there for. For casuals.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by newlineGet View Post
    Funny how you said if it isin't broken don't fix it. The way everything worked in vanilla, tbc, wrath was fine and the game was growing. Didn't seem like it needed fixing.
    You're kidding yourself if you think everything was fine in vanilla and tbc. Wrath was when Blizzard started to make the game easier for "casual" players and it was the peak of subscriptions by making raids more easily accessible, making leveling a breeze etc.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    You're kidding yourself if you think everything was fine in vanilla and tbc. Wrath was when Blizzard started to make the game easier for "casual" players and it was the peak of subscriptions by making raids more easily accessible, making leveling a breeze etc.
    Not saying EVERYTHING was fine, just a lot.
    About the growing part. It was already growing all the way up to wrath. Uncoincidentaly, end of wrath -> cata was when it started dropping aswell.

  16. #336
    I agree on most points. There have been a lot of very good new features in the game in the past few years, but the difficulty drop (outside raiding/Challenge modes) and linearity killed it for me. I think the worst part is that there is literally nothing even remotely challenging until you hit lvl90.

  17. #337
    Please close this retarded thread, for fuck sake.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2013-11-04 at 09:18 PM.

  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by newlineGet View Post
    pretty horrible. Now I know that I'm just beating a dead horse here, and that this has been discussed a million of times, but what the hell, seems to be the go to topic nowadays, so I guess I'll drop my views on the problem and possible fixes to them.

    Inb4 "Not this shit again", "oh, what an exciting thread", "troll", "take off your nostalgia glasses".

    Now that we got that out of the way we can discuss the main two problems of todays WoW: Progression and difficulty.

    Let's start of with the difficulty part, because it will eventually lead up to the problem with todays progression. Now I know a lot of you will think I'm going to rant about how easy raiding is now a days, but the difficulty that I am referring to isin't related to raiding at all. It's rather related to the overall experience of the game. Leveling, grouping and ESPECIALLY the dungeon difficulty.
    I'm going to refer to the following thread : eu.battle.n.et/wow/en/forum/topic/8427632869. It explains everything pretty well, but let's touch on what I think really makes the game mind numbing and unbearable.

    First off the leveling.. what a load of bull. About 2 months ago I tried to relevel a couple characters to expand my class pool and to also try out monk. Trust me, I have never, never, felt so mind numbed before. Mind you I leveled one character with BoA gear and the other without, and it doesn't make too much of a difference, except that in one scenario you kill your brain cells for longer, and in the other, a bit less. The problem is, that everything is literally spoon fed. And I mean it. Quests? Boring as fuck. Everything is shown and extremely linear. I honestly, don't understand why people enjoy the new "flow" of quests. In pandaria, you just follow a set path or chains that just lead you from one place to another. I hate that they have done this to vanilla content as well, because honestly, I found wayyyy more enjoyable to sidetrack, search for different quest hubs, new places. Add up the fact that you now get abilities automatically when you level, and you have yourself with a brain mush deluxe - just run from one place to the other aka follow this linear path until you're 90. Group quests? Why the hell were they removed? It was always fun and exciting to see that quest that would give you blue gear, more gold, and more experience in exchange for a bit of effort. You could say that it broke the numbness of linearity and let you try something else - try to take on the challenge and solo 5 man quest alone(which I loved) or take a break and find some people to take on the quest. Either way it spiced things up a lot. The difficulty? Don't even want to comment that. It's just a mass pull fest with overdumbed mechanics now. Want to guess how many times I life tapped or stopped to drink on my warlock from 1-90? Yea that's right, zero(actually, I didn't have life tap on my bars).

    Dungeons(I felt like this needed it's own space)? Oh my fucking god, what have they done? Dungeons used to be meaningful , fun, challenging and a key into the actual endgame. What are they now? Useless and boring. They are now just mass aoe fest, with a straight patern, easy bosses and overall useless(not only the normals, but also heroics). Nowadays, you can realistically, after you hit max level just go to the AH, buy a couple of pieces to raise your iLvl , go do LFR and you're set. Damn.

    Now that we got most of those points out of the way we can move to the biggest problem: progression. Now this is a big one and honestly the one that has killed WoW for me the past 2 expansions, it's the progression or lack of it.

    I know how much people hate when other put on the "nostalgia glasses", but let me try to give prime examples here for a second.

    Vanilla - TBC - Wrath(possibly) : Okay, so at least for me, these were the expansions that I found myself logging on every day for the longest hours until the end of the expansion. Why you might ask? Because I felt an actual sense of progression, difficulty, fun and rewards. Back in TBC, after I hit level 70 on new alts I felt like I had a clear path - to get into Black temple/Sunwell/Kara(you name it). How did I achieve it? By baby steps. Hit 70 -> get all the possible best quest/rep gear(possibly buy something from AH) -> run normals until properly geared - > onto heroics -> get attuned -> run previous raids to get the latest possible gear before I stepped into the current tier. And all this while keeping me entertained also helped me find new people(no dungeon finder), and finally after so much effort help me reach the goal : to see the current tier, it's bosses, mechanics.

    Cataclysm - Pandaria(mainly pandaria): The game in it's current state doesn't have me coming back for more than a couple of months maximum. Why? I'ts cause I can't find anything to fill my time in terms of meaningful progression. This is what is done on new alts today: Hit 90 - > get a couple of pieces for iLvl requirement - > LFR - > Loot shower - > eventually make way into heroics. Yes, it's that sad. With this type of gameplay I can't imagine myself spending more than 2-3 hours actually doing something meaningful in the game. All of this is done in an automized sense(LFR, dungeon finder, etc.) which makes the process even quicker thus making the game less of a time sink.

    This sort of progression also makes the game EXTREMELY bland. You doing LFR means, that you already fought the bosses, saw their mechanics, dialogues, lore in the LFR. Do you really enjoy repeating it in normal/heroic just for those +10-20 iLvl's? I know that me, personally, would much prefer to have a carrot on a stick thrown at me, so I progress in a way that makes me reach my final goal in a climax. Reaching the final tier is the climax of doing dungeons/attunements/previous tiers, and is honestly always been the best reward.

    Think about it for a second. What do you prefer? Hitting 90 and heading straight into LFR, getting the gear and possibly continuing into normals/heroics? Or would you rather break down your game into chunks that kept you occupied for a longer period of time, thus removing the "I'll resubscribe when new patch comes out" scenario, because you'll actually have something to do until the new patch hits. I find it funny that people blame Blizzard for not producing content fast enough, when in reality, there's more content than ever, just that half of it is useless or just done too quickly.

    The game isin't dying because it's too hard/easy/aged. It's dying because of what it has become. A quick express that takes you no longer than a couple of days.

    How do we fix this? Honestly at this point, it's hard to say if we can fix this. Look at Cata's heroics for instance. They were probably the closest you can get to vanilla/tbc dungeons, and what happened? QQ shitstorm everywhere. The game has has just changed too much to back to where we started. So the only thing I deem possible - a vanilla server. Look at it as more of a test, to see which way the game is actually better off and what do people enjoy more.

    There are also other problems like class homogenization, reducing social interaction and others that I could touch upon, but the post is already too long, and probably half the people won't bother reading it anyway.

    TL;DR: Games too quick,bland, easy thus leaving people with nothing to do, but to unsubscribe and wait for next patch, cause they are already done with the previous one in a week.

    Thanks for your time and welcome to thread 9798789 discussing this topic.
    MMOS in comparison are shit, especially all the F2P ones, I tried like 90% of the F2P ones and they suck dicks, I will agree if you played WoW for more than 5 years, or like me have more than 365 days played across all my characters over a span of almost 10 years it can get boring. Just don't play it, you want WoW to be something it can't and will never be because you love the feel of it. Just take the fond memories you have for it and be done.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    I feel absolutely nothing when killing bosses now. Comparatively, of course. I just check if they dropped good loot and enjoy the good time with guildies, but no emotions at all about beating the game itself.
    Something like that should be expected by anybody who's been playing the game for a few years though. Let's all face it. Those of us who've played for a long time have killed countless bosses and we're pretty much over it.

  20. #340
    I agree 100% with everything the OP said and I don't know how Blizzard can fix this now. Even stuff like Transmog and Flying Mounts I feel dampened the experience for me.

    Everything is easy, everything is picked for you, and everything is broken.

    problem is if Blizzard backtracks and tries to make the experience like WotLK and before, people will QQ like no other and whine about it. Who plays a game that doesn't feel rewarding in any way and when blizzard tries to challenge you whines that they would rather get everything for free?

    If Blizzard backtracks, it will cleanse the game of the stupidity and whiny brats and bring back all the true hardcore WoW fans that loved this game before Cata. Which I think would make the game healthier overall. sure, maybe less subs, but at least its healthy... If blizzard keeps following this path WoW will eventually just become a empty husk instead of dropping subs in a healthy way all the people who loved wow will stick with it until the end if Blizzard returns to their ways.

    Just my two cents.

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