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As for the balance. I never stated that vanilla was in any way perfectly balanced. The game still isin't. Doesn't mean that made the game worse back then.
2. Searching for people wasn't necessarily a horrible thing. Tedious for some, but it provided you with those extra minutes of something to do other than quest.
And todays dungeons with BoA or without is still a joke, sorry.
3. Sure, that's fine. I can see why some people like it the way it is currently. I'm just discussing the long terms prospects of such a progression.
4. That's fine, and I completely respect that. You might still enjoy the game and it's understandable. The game is still the best MMO there and still has interesting parts.
Yes, I don't have to run LFR I can just do dungeons(see the mind numbing part). But it'll still feel incomplete, because while I'm doing these dungeons, mindlessly aoe'ing packs and killing these easy bosses, I can see other people just get free gear from timeless isle/lfr. That kills the progression aspect.
And the game grew all the way from vanilla -> TBC -> end of wrath. It's not making the game more accesible that made it grow if it was already growing in TBC and vanilla now is it.
I already addressed the LFR -> Flex - > Normal - > Heroic in the OP, and why it can be tedious.
Last edited by newlineGet; 2013-11-04 at 05:41 PM.
"BC raiding was more enjoyable because you had to clear the last tier before you did the next tier"Are you trolling? I have made ZERO complaints about difficulty. I even explicitly said the difficulty was comparable. The whole argument I'm making over and over is about linear progression. How can you possibly fail this badly at reading comprehension?
I do not see how that makes a raid more enjoyable.
I agree with you on almost everything.
First off, it can't be a hard cut, it has to be relatively gradual.
Step 1: make level 91 mobs a little tough. We're talking get you to half health if you're wearing greens tough.
Step 2: Make level 93+ mobs real tough. I'm talking about giving them abilities that stack. Say you have three enemies in a pack. Two of them debuff you against poison damage and the third one(with extra health so u dont just burn it down) has heavy poison damage, non-interruptable. so You have to use cc while questing. and taking on more than 2 mobs at a time is really tough. 4+ is almost assured suicide. This forces players to re-learn how to play. And we do it gradually, so its not off-putting.
Step 3: Have end-game dungeons and heroic dungeons. Make end game dungeons as hard as heroics were in wotlk. Make heroics legitimately challenging for people in all blues from normal max level dungeons. Make the achievements for siad dungeons grant you titles and sparkle ponies and only be doable in full epic raiding gear. Dungeons are the core of the Wow experience for most players. Hard, challenging, engaging dungeons are what they want. Make some harder than others, of course, and make those drop weapons.
Step 4: Make epics rarer. You get to max level Cool. Start working on your first set of blues. Have non-set pieces dropped from every boss in dungeons. Have set pieces be 4 ilevels higher and dropped from end bosses of dungeons. Then have a shared rep that you can grind from any dungeon. Have that reward heroic level blues. Have the heroic drop heroic blues, and the end bosses drop an item that you can turn in 8-10 or so of + like 100 of trade resource(metal,herbs,cloth, etc) for an epic piece or for sparkle pony rewards. This adds a diverse set of rewards to dungeons and heroic dungeons and ensure that raiders will run heroics occasionally and help out the inexperienced players.
Step 5: raiding. The first boss should be tuned to killable after a few hours if your team is in full heroic blues. Main issue should be dodging mechanics or a kill order to figure out, possibly a consumable found by clearing trash a little out of the way debuffs the boss slightly. Second boss should be a dps check of some sort. It shouldn't be terribly difficult. Doable in full heroic gear, but only barely. all other bosses should be tuned to where the average raiders get to progress at about a boss a week if they don't make silly mistakes, and you get some epics from the previous bosses + heroic rewards. This will lead to much slower progression, yes. But also, a feeling of accomplishment. Also, bosses should not be loot pinatas. Two items drop for 10 man, and 5-6 from 25 man. But make the bosses also drop a collectible item. After Bracers buyable for 4, shoulders, helm chest for 10, weapon for 12, and all else for 8 or so. And make these 4 ilevels below dropable gear.
Step 6: Get rid of LFR. It's only redeemable feature was making it super easy to see the content so you could play wow without any investment,s ee the bosses, and log out till next patch. It's a suicide pill for your game. Ax it.
Step 7: Timey wimey fluctuations mean you cannot bring your flying mounts with you into the past and use them in draenor. You will be rinding ground based steeds, and will no longer be able to ignore content on the ground, which is like half of the game. The world is more immersive and fun when you actually have to traverse it and explore it.
Step 8: Give 5 man world bosses that drop a mcguffin that is needed by raiders. perhaps an item that is required to make end game crafting gear.
Step 9: make side bosses in raids. Make them drop plans for crafting. Make these dropped plans better than 90% of what you can get in the raid. Make it take items dropped from all the bosses( if there's 8 raid bosses, make it take 8 raid items) make it take like 5 world boss crafting items, and make it take like 60+ gatherable crafting mats. Make it like a belt or boots or something. And make it BOE.
Step 10: Take away all the dang self healing in pvp. Make non healers's heals heal for less in combat. Give stamina like twice the budget you ever gave it before. This makes fights longer for dps classes, and give the chance for skill to matter more. Also on healing. Make healers heal for about the same as a normal player can dps. If they are spamming heals sitting still, a few stuns and a mortal strike style debuff should be dead after about 30 secs. Also, we have dual spec. healers do not need to be able to dps. Arenas: add in more buffs. Put them in areas you don't normall go. Have them do like 20% less damage taken, or 20% more damage done. Adds an element of strategy. Do I save my cc for when the buff spawns, or blow it now and try to get a kill?
These alone would make the game badass. perhaps the best expansion yet. Oh, and bring back some of them server wide pve things. Like AQ or Isle of quel'danas. Something we all work towards and different servers complete at different speeds.
Do you really want to go back to vanilla? Offcourse vanilla felt epic cause when you never ever thouched an mmo and started your first char i took you forever to level to 60 and thinking back you find was the best experience ever compared to now. But think about the other side of the medal, travel 45-60 minutes for just 5% experience. Dying 20 minutes on one quest, cause you didnt used the correct spells or your gear isnt high enough to just to complete that one quest. Hitting level 40 and realizing you dont have enough gold to buy your mount.How do we fix this? Honestly at this point, it's hard to say if we can fix this. Look at Cata's heroics for instance. They were probably the closest you can get to vanilla/tbc dungeons, and what happened? QQ shitstorm everywhere. The game has has just changed too much to back to where we started. So the only thing I deem possible - a vanilla server. Look at it as more of a test, to see which way the game is actually better off and what do people enjoy more.
Have a full actionbar filled with lesser healing rank 1 to 6 and greater healing from rank 1 to 6 and during a raid/dungeon you had to determe what spell should i use to not get oom in your current gear. Starting a 40 man raid took you one hour to form and get all 40 people to the instance fully buffed with food etc... and realizing 4 of them didnt have correct gear with them and need to go back to town or change their talents or the 1 person that just pulled whatever he wanted. 25 people hardly know the tactics of the fight.
Im not saying vanilla was complete shit! The social aspect of the game was so good i want it back. Starting a dungeon with 5-10 other random people and end up with adding 2 to your friendlist because you felt they were good and so you formed a personal friendlist with people you liked and where you can count on to do dungeons and raids to have the best possible experience. But people tend to forget from where we come and how the game evolved in a good or bad way.
P.S: fastest character to level from 1-60 took roughly 5 days. If you play 2 hours a day it would take you 60 actuall days to reach level 60
RIPIP Mindbenders in Vashj'ir and those mobs in Deepholm that had 150k lava bursts ;_;
I feel absolutely nothing when killing bosses now. Comparatively, of course. I just check if they dropped good loot and enjoy the good time with guildies, but no emotions at all about beating the game itself.
Last edited by Mionelol; 2013-11-04 at 04:53 PM.
If you are a fresh 90 and want to get into heroic raiding, you have a shitton of grinding to do.
1#must grind all wings of LFR from every tier for legendary cloak for 2-3 month which will take you much much longer than 2 hours per week.
2#Must grind all wings of flex for gear upgrades every week.
3#Spend countless hours on timeless isle grinding for epics.
4#Try to find normal pugs every week and any pieces you do not get, you must grind flex and LFR.
5# Spend a few hours grinding Black Prince rep for legendary.
6# Spending an hour or 2 doing all the Isle of Thunder solo scenarios for legendary.
#7 repeat for any alts you want to gear up.
If you want any nice titles/mounts/achievements then you have even more grinding to do.
A lot fo the problems with vanilla were with the inexperience of the playerbase back then.The playerbase has matured substantially since then. Having a vanilla or bc style expansion would probably be amazing. In order to have social interaction, you have to have a need for it. That means you will lose some convenience. As it stands, they have removed the other players from the game and put you on training wheels.
Group quests are what you make of them. Sure, you could invite a higher level to kill the mob for you. You could do the same thing with dungeons. It isin't that though, it's about the leveling experience and choices.
I leveled as a non BoA demo lock, mass pulling everything. And yes, I did not have life tap on my bars the whole way through. The new HP/MP regen is enough to keep you from stopping to think until you have the gear to avoid this problem.
"All I see is one big rant about linearity and the removal of group-quests. What does that have to do with difficulty?". Nothing, it's about dullness.
"Really? Are you serious on that?". Yes I am. Me and many other people have done it.
"Do you want to know my TBC path?". If you ran those heroics at the end of the exp, with overgeared people then yea, that path might be possible. Even then, your described path looks more complex and time consuming than the current model.
"Simple solution: DO NOT DO LFR!". Sure. I can run those overdumbed heroics instead for 20 minutes each. Fine. Won't take much effort nor will it consume much time, will only have me less geared.
Very good post, I must say I totally agree. People who whine and say "oh go play something else", why should he? He obviously still love this game for what it once was and hates to see it ruined. Wow has been around for such a long time and people have built a relation to it that they won't give up without a fight. I love the world of Warcraft for what it once was, I love the Warcraft universe and it is my favorite game of all time, I won't give up trying to restore it to its former glory until the last server is shut down.
There is a reason TBC was the most popular expansion, you actually had to play the game back then, you had always had something to look forward to. Now? The only thing there is to look forward to is that someday the game will be as challenging as it was during the golden days.
I love when casuals say this game is "easy"
Sorry, where are you in terms of Heroic progression and racing for world firsts?
People who claim it's easy take months to get anywhere in progress and stick with LFR/Now flex.
Of course it's "easy" that's what those are there for. For casuals.
I agree on most points. There have been a lot of very good new features in the game in the past few years, but the difficulty drop (outside raiding/Challenge modes) and linearity killed it for me. I think the worst part is that there is literally nothing even remotely challenging until you hit lvl90.
Please close this retarded thread, for fuck sake.
Last edited by Gehco; 2013-11-04 at 09:18 PM.
“What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”
-Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011
I agree 100% with everything the OP said and I don't know how Blizzard can fix this now. Even stuff like Transmog and Flying Mounts I feel dampened the experience for me.
Everything is easy, everything is picked for you, and everything is broken.
problem is if Blizzard backtracks and tries to make the experience like WotLK and before, people will QQ like no other and whine about it. Who plays a game that doesn't feel rewarding in any way and when blizzard tries to challenge you whines that they would rather get everything for free?
If Blizzard backtracks, it will cleanse the game of the stupidity and whiny brats and bring back all the true hardcore WoW fans that loved this game before Cata. Which I think would make the game healthier overall. sure, maybe less subs, but at least its healthy... If blizzard keeps following this path WoW will eventually just become a empty husk instead of dropping subs in a healthy way all the people who loved wow will stick with it until the end if Blizzard returns to their ways.
Just my two cents.