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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzl View Post
    I started playing again a few nights ago (10 day trial) and I'm pretty disappointed. Pandaria is beautiful (including the dungeons, which are aesthetically great). The leveling is ok. Random stuff in the world to find is fun. Being forced to use ground mounts until 90 was an excellent decision. But that's where my list of good things ends.


    1. The Social Experience is (almost) Gone

    Not once during this process did I have to be social. I queued, said nothing, did the dungeon, and left. 'But that was your choice', you might say. Well, yes, it was. And I made that choice because the majority of social investments made in this game are nullified by menu options and cross-realm mechanics. I'm not going to invest in building a social relationship if I know I'm probably never going to see that person again.

    This is compounded by the lack of reliance on other people. Warlocks brought summons, mages brought food, some people had enchanting (and you had to get enchants in person) etc etc. We've moved into a state of almost complete non-reliance on other people. This is a bad thing. One of the main reasons we are social creatures is because we need other people in order to accomplish tasks, not only for defeating enemies but also to improve oneself. This, combined with the lack of social investment mentioned above, make it pointless, even stupid at times, to be social in this game.

    I think it's useful to here mention the adage 'bring the player, not the class'. I don't think this is true. The class brings flavor, and creates reliance, and creates a demand for people's unique skills and thus for social activity. Classes are highly homogenous now in what they can accomplish. It's important for each class to have well-defined strengths that the player can attempt to exploit and well-defined weaknesses that they can try to minimize. These well-defined characteristics are mostly gone, because every class can do a little bit of everything.


    2. Content Overwhelming

    There's a lot of content in Mists, and there's a problem with it. The problem might not be the quantity, but rather its presentation.

    Questing has evolved drastically. Now, we have a hub of quests designated to a specific part of a zone with the zone divided entirely into little parts. It's not the worst system. But it's pretty close. Questing is the single player experience. It should be as epic as multiplayer content, but right now it's just a mandatory prerequisite that few people enjoy (I do enjoy it though). A better design would be to reduce the number of quests, but make each more meaningful. Again, if we aren't investing anything in the questing process (emotionally or otherwise), we won't enjoy it nearly as much. Don't make me go to the bottom of a lake to collect 10 pieces of amber AND THEN give me increased swim speed and underwater breathing. Why would you do that? You just seriously devalued this quest. Make me work harder to collect 2 pieces of amber. Make me have to come up for air. The time it takes might even be the same. But now I feel like I'm doing something.

    Dungeons suffer from a similar problem. They're too short. They don't have complex pathways (actually incredibly linear...). Getting lost in dungeons forces us to reach out to other people for help. Not knowing the way, not knowing mechanics forces us to ask. Reliance, again, is crucial. And again, if you place higher value on the content, we as players won't feel the need to rush through it, ignoring all of the aspects of the game that make it an otherworldly experience.

    Raids. Raids are okay with one major exception - Raid Finder. It has to go. Not having access to content drives people to gain access to it. If you walk by that instance portal every day and think of what you don't have, attaining it will be incredibly rewarding (and force you to socialize - the reliance on guild members is the last real form of reliance in the game, and even it is being eroded). If it's just a menu option, you don't think twice. And then when you get inside the raid, you don't talk to anyone. You just do your rotation and then leave.

    There are also too many difficulty levels in raids. I hit 95 and was overwhelmed by the options - and I didn't know which one was the 'right' one for me.

    (Scenarios)
    Dungeons
    Heroic Dungeons
    Timeless Isle
    Raid Finder
    Flex Raid
    Normal Raid
    Heroic Raid

    Do we really need seven tiers at any one time? No. But the problem here runs deeper. By having so many tiers of gear, we as players are forced to focus on that which is only the highest attainable ilvl for us and ignore the rest of the content. What's the point of all that content if so few people see it, and more importantly, understand it?


    3. Challenge Level - Unmotivated

    Items are too easy to get. If they're easy to get, their value goes down. Simple economics. Make them harder to get, and we might actually bother to read the item's name. I'm mostly looking at timeless isle here. I don't have a solution; but I know that 2 hours and 15 epics is not a valid equation for the success of a game.

    Providing both challenging and unchallenging modes of content will result in a watering-down of the content's value. There is no thrill to raid finder. And because everyone can see the content, the exclusivity is diminished and thus the accomplishments feel diminished.

    Questing is not epic. It's 'do these chores, don't worry, they're slightly different from the 300 others you just finished'. Quality and immersion should be key here, not quantity.


    4. Exploration

    I'll be brief here: exploration is in serious trouble. A lot of this is because zones are saturated with quest material. Anywhere you go, the mobs there are probably for a quest. This immediately signals to us that it is not novel information, and exploration is not involved (BECAUSE questing is so linear). Having non-linear hubs is damage control, and it's poor damage control because the exclamation marks are on the map (...).

    Exploration means going out into the wilderness, where there is nothing, or something. You don't know. What you do know is that you're doing it to escape the guiding hand that pushes you along the quest line. If you're guided to a spot (especially by economic coercion, which in this case is xp and money), it's no longer exploration.

    -------------------------

    I see what's happened to this game as a form of capitalism. The emotional aspects of it have been drawn out and away either through removing benefits or providing incentives that lead to antisocial behavior. Gear maximization is the only goal, not character building. This is not a single player game. You can't remove its emotional and social aspects, and expect to succeed in the long run.
    This is a beautiful post, thanks for the effort to formulate the points in detail!

    Many points are even true for games in general. There is a reason why Skyrim is praised

    The leveling experience is so easy now. I died 2 times in Elwynn on a classic server (with time travel of course and not a silly private project) in that spider cave. Epic. I died more than once in redridge in that castle and i had a blast with my 3 hour deadmines journey (sadly the time travel machine is broken and not every mob worked correctly). The thing is: Don't believe the fanbois that we are crazy. No, WoW was really that great. It was big, immersive and dangerous - a great experience from the beginning. Todays leveling experience is a bad joke. I rather play a browser game than leveling a new toon. Oh wait, instant 85 available? Did Blizzard stole this idea from that silly private projects?! Oh wait, i did not mention them!

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzl View Post
    I started playing again a few nights ago (10 day trial) and I'm pretty disappointed. Pandaria is beautiful (including the dungeons, which are aesthetically great). The leveling is ok. Random stuff in the world to find is fun. Being forced to use ground mounts until 90 was an excellent decision. But that's where my list of good things ends.


    1. The Social Experience is (almost) Gone

    Not once during this process did I have to be social. I queued, said nothing, did the dungeon, and left. 'But that was your choice', you might say. Well, yes, it was. And I made that choice because the majority of social investments made in this game are nullified by menu options and cross-realm mechanics. I'm not going to invest in building a social relationship if I know I'm probably never going to see that person again.

    This is compounded by the lack of reliance on other people. Warlocks brought summons, mages brought food, some people had enchanting (and you had to get enchants in person) etc etc. We've moved into a state of almost complete non-reliance on other people. This is a bad thing. One of the main reasons we are social creatures is because we need other people in order to accomplish tasks, not only for defeating enemies but also to improve oneself. This, combined with the lack of social investment mentioned above, make it pointless, even stupid at times, to be social in this game.

    I think it's useful to here mention the adage 'bring the player, not the class'. I don't think this is true. The class brings flavor, and creates reliance, and creates a demand for people's unique skills and thus for social activity. Classes are highly homogenous now in what they can accomplish. It's important for each class to have well-defined strengths that the player can attempt to exploit and well-defined weaknesses that they can try to minimize. These well-defined characteristics are mostly gone, because every class can do a little bit of everything.
    There was nothing stopping you from forming a group manually. That's like choosing to go to a fast food joint instead of sit down restaurant and complaining that you didn't get enough quality service. You choose efficiency over immersion/character relationships. Now as a new player, you may not be aware that you can do that, which is certainly a problem, but by no means is it indicative that the system is what's the issue.

    I don't quite understand your second point. Warlocks still bring summons and mages still bring food. You still have to get an enchanter to enchant things, but it's a little easier in that you can enchant a scroll and give it out. That's a huge logistic burden gone. If anything I'd say people have become MORE reliant on others. Have you ever tried to pug the world bosses? People will literally sit there and spam INV FOR CELESTIALS/ORDOS, forever until you invite them, but at no point do they ever try to make the group for themselves. So I still don't quite understand this point.

    I really don't know why you're arguing this point. Being able to take any class for a role is awesome. Not being able to kill a boss because one of your shamans didn't show up is lame as hell. Classes are still pretty unique and make a lot of difference sometimes.

    For instance, paladins make single tanking a lot more feasible
    Rogues on heroic Council of Elders could completely negate an ability drastically changing the difficulty of the fight.
    Warlock portal on heroic Iron Qon was HUGE when the tier was new. It was very good even at the end.
    Warlock portal on heroic Lei Shen
    Resto shamans in cataclysm on herioc spine of deathwing(Not having SLT for heroic spine was almost a death sentence depending on your lineup)

    Those are just a handful I thought of off the top of my head. Classes are still plenty unique.

    2. Content Overwhelming

    There's a lot of content in Mists, and there's a problem with it. The problem might not be the quantity, but rather its presentation.

    Questing has evolved drastically. Now, we have a hub of quests designated to a specific part of a zone with the zone divided entirely into little parts. It's not the worst system. But it's pretty close. Questing is the single player experience. It should be as epic as multiplayer content, but right now it's just a mandatory prerequisite that few people enjoy (I do enjoy it though). A better design would be to reduce the number of quests, but make each more meaningful. Again, if we aren't investing anything in the questing process (emotionally or otherwise), we won't enjoy it nearly as much. Don't make me go to the bottom of a lake to collect 10 pieces of amber AND THEN give me increased swim speed and underwater breathing. Why would you do that? You just seriously devalued this quest. Make me work harder to collect 2 pieces of amber. Make me have to come up for air. The time it takes might even be the same. But now I feel like I'm doing something.

    Dungeons suffer from a similar problem. They're too short. They don't have complex pathways (actually incredibly linear...). Getting lost in dungeons forces us to reach out to other people for help. Not knowing the way, not knowing mechanics forces us to ask. Reliance, again, is crucial. And again, if you place higher value on the content, we as players won't feel the need to rush through it, ignoring all of the aspects of the game that make it an otherworldly experience.

    Raids. Raids are okay with one major exception - Raid Finder. It has to go. Not having access to content drives people to gain access to it. If you walk by that instance portal every day and think of what you don't have, attaining it will be incredibly rewarding (and force you to socialize - the reliance on guild members is the last real form of reliance in the game, and even it is being eroded). If it's just a menu option, you don't think twice. And then when you get inside the raid, you don't talk to anyone. You just do your rotation and then leave.

    There are also too many difficulty levels in raids. I hit 95 and was overwhelmed by the options - and I didn't know which one was the 'right' one for me.

    (Scenarios)
    Dungeons
    Heroic Dungeons
    Timeless Isle
    Raid Finder
    Flex Raid
    Normal Raid
    Heroic Raid

    Do we really need seven tiers at any one time? No. But the problem here runs deeper. By having so many tiers of gear, we as players are forced to focus on that which is only the highest attainable ilvl for us and ignore the rest of the content. What's the point of all that content if so few people see it, and more importantly, understand it?
    I agree with you here. Questing needs an overhaul. Mindlessly doing the same quests that you just did but with minor variations is not fun nor compelling.

    How can you say dungeons are too linear yet you somehow get lost? If it's too linear it's impossible to get lost, you're either going towards the end or the beginning. Not knowing mechanics forces you to interact with people and you complaining about that? I thought you problem was that there WASN'T a social atmosphere. You said that questing was too easy and boring, but you don't like the fact that you have to ask if you don't know a mechanic? At the very least it's a unique mechanic adding some freshness.

    Not having access to content does not drive people to it, that is a fallacy. That only works if the content is appealing to them to begin with. The people using raid finder wouldn't be raiding otherwise. They weren't interested in normal mode then, and if you remove LFR they won't be interested in it either. I actually had a long coversation a few days ago with a predominately LFR raider on my server. He's got 10+ clears of everything in LFR, but maybe 1 or 2 in normal. I even asked him this exact question and even he agreed. Had it not been for LFR, he said he would have never gotten involved with raiding, and the only reason he's starting to do normal now is because he feels like he can push his skills further thanks to LFR. Removing LFR is a terrible idea.

    You say there are too many raid difficulties and then proceed to make a list filled half of non raid categories. You're looking at it the wrong way if you think there's too many. You have Timeless Isle with 499/535 gear(Burdens), which is completely solo for all intents and purposes(Running up to a rare and tagging it while other people kill it, I don't consider as grouped). I will agree that 5mans have fallen out of use which is unfortunate and scenarios are all but useless unless you have very good RNG.

    The only thing that leaves is LFR/flex which for the most part are all the same. I'm not really sure how that's confusing. You have LFR as the lowest level of raid difficulty that you can pick up whenever you want, then there's flex that allows for variable sizes groups so you don't have to exlude people anymore. Normal/heroic are probably beyond you at the moment if you're having trouble grasping the previous difficultly levels( I don't mean that as an insult, rather that they just aren't relevant to a new player like yourself, so for the time being you can exclude them)
    3. Challenge Level - Unmotivated

    Items are too easy to get. If they're easy to get, their value goes down. Simple economics. Make them harder to get, and we might actually bother to read the item's name. I'm mostly looking at timeless isle here. I don't have a solution; but I know that 2 hours and 15 epics is not a valid equation for the success of a game.

    Providing both challenging and unchallenging modes of content will result in a watering-down of the content's value. There is no thrill to raid finder. And because everyone can see the content, the exclusivity is diminished and thus the accomplishments feel diminished.

    Questing is not epic. It's 'do these chores, don't worry, they're slightly different from the 300 others you just finished'. Quality and immersion should be key here, not quantity.
    Timeless Isle is designed as catch up. You're SUPPOSED to gear up quickly. That's why the gear is only ilvl 496 so as not to diminish the gear you get from the current tier. The only thing this does is allow you to start a character at ilvl 496 essentially, instead of having to waste time gearing up in previous raids/LFR. You could say that that isn't fun and you'd rather progress naturally; well that option is open to you. The thing you need to understand is that this is at the END of the expansion. A lot of what you want won't be there because more players are tired of redoing the same content over and over than there are new players. So successive patches are going to make it easier to get to a point where you can become relevant to the current tier quickly. This doesn't mean you'll fly through the current tier, just means that you can spend more time on the tier itself and not the ones before it.

    Having easy content does not diminish harder content, this is another fallacy. Raid finder was never exclusive to begin with, so I don't know what the issue is there. Whether raid finder exists or not doesn't diminish my heroic Garrosh achievement.

    I agree with your statement on quests 100%. Quality and immersion DEFINITELY should be driving factors.
    4. Exploration

    I'll be brief here: exploration is in serious trouble. A lot of this is because zones are saturated with quest material. Anywhere you go, the mobs there are probably for a quest. This immediately signals to us that it is not novel information, and exploration is not involved (BECAUSE questing is so linear). Having non-linear hubs is damage control, and it's poor damage control because the exclamation marks are on the map (...).

    Exploration means going out into the wilderness, where there is nothing, or something. You don't know. What you do know is that you're doing it to escape the guiding hand that pushes you along the quest line. If you're guided to a spot (especially by economic coercion, which in this case is xp and money), it's no longer exploration.
    There is absolutely nothing stopping you from exploring. Can you explore and do any quest you wish? No, but that has more to do with phasing and how the zone is supposed to progress dynamically as you quest through it. In order for that to work you kind of have to go linearly or you risking breaking immersion. You can still explore as you wish and see everything and then go back and quest, or you could do it AS you quest.

    The one thing I will agree with you on that subject though, is the excitement of not knowing what's going to be there is nice. However, even if that were the case, the instant you do it it's not longer "new", so every subsequent time after is going to be just as boring. So as you can see the real problem is still there either way.

    -------------------------
    I see what's happened to this game as a form of capitalism. The emotional aspects of it have been drawn out and away either through removing benefits or providing incentives that lead to antisocial behavior. Gear maximization is the only goal, not character building. This is not a single player game. You can't remove its emotional and social aspects, and expect to succeed in the long run.
    A lot of those changes are QoL changes that DID make the game better. Because people decided to twist them into how they are today is not indicative of a flawed system. People are the problem, not the system in place.

    What's really frightening is that we seem to be getting more and more players that do not want to play with other people. It's an MMO, there's a certain level of interaction that has to happen in order to function properly. However people are coming into this game without thinking about that. I personally think it's because they made leveling so easy. If you spend 90 levels solo and never once NEED to group with someone, then once you hit max level your perception is going to be that you should be able to do it solo.

    Another thing is people approach WoW VERY differently. To some people it's a game, to others a hobby. There is a very large distinction in that and I think that's where most of the misinformation stems from.
    Last edited by Allarius; 2013-11-04 at 08:21 PM.

  3. #363
    ...an awesome game.

    Oh did I guess wrong? Huh, never expected this to be a 'why wow sux0rs' thread.

    /sarcasm
    Originally Posted by Vaneras
    Soon™ ;-)

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Allarius View Post
    There was nothing stopping you from...
    See that's the problem, right there.
    Sure theres nothing stopping people from doing this or that.
    But most players want to maximize rewards for time played.
    Ergo, don't talk to anyone, just click your menu and head to LFR.

    Now the question is, are you going to fault the player? Or are you going to fault the designers for not encouraging social interaction/exploration/meaningful content in a game where the entire theme is that you are playing with millions of others around the world?

  5. #365
    Oh, questing is too smooth? Too polished? Too flowing?

    "Not knowing where to start x questchain, better interrupt the game to search on Wowhead. Oh here it is, but I don't have the prerequisite. Need to look for that. Now I have 75/80 qusts completed but missing five, better run/search Wowhead endlessly to find those last scattered random quests"

    Yeah, that is SO hardcore dude. Really using my braincells there.

    1. Flow>running around looking for random scattered auests that have nothig to do with eachother

    2. Questing is supposed to be an immersive, enjoyable experience, not "hard". Do PVP or Raiding for that.

    /bow

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Sastank View Post
    I love when casuals say this game is "easy"
    Sorry, where are you in terms of Heroic progression and racing for world firsts?
    Oh nowhere.
    People who claim it's easy take months to get anywhere in progress and stick with LFR/Now flex.
    Of course it's "easy" that's what those are there for. For casuals.
    This game is easy. The existence of a sliver of challenging content doesn't make the game hard. Super Mario Brothers is not a hard game because sub 5 minute speed runs exist.

    You can take a lowest, common denominator approach to this game, be as slack as possible in terms of a minimum of attention span, and still at least experience all the content there is, with possibly the exception of brawlers guild and proving grounds. If that doesn't define the overall scope of this game, I'm not sure what does.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jabulaniman View Post
    Oh, questing is too smooth? Too polished? Too flowing?

    "Not knowing where to start x questchain, better interrupt the game to search on Wowhead. Oh here it is, but I don't have the prerequisite. Need to look for that. Now I have 75/80 qusts completed but missing five, better run/search Wowhead endlessly to find those last scattered random quests"

    Yeah, that is SO hardcore dude. Really using my braincells there.

    1. Flow>running around looking for random scattered auests that have nothig to do with eachother

    2. Questing is supposed to be an immersive, enjoyable experience, not "hard". Do PVP or Raiding for that.

    /bow
    Implying that questing in this game was ever hard. Or vague.

    Well, everything is giant neon flashing "KILL THESE! YES THESE RIGHT HERE, SEE YOUR MAP" signs. How's that immersion and enjoyment working out for you?
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
    I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Strangewayes View Post
    See that's the problem, right there.
    Sure theres nothing stopping people from doing this or that.
    But most players want to maximize rewards for time played.
    Ergo, don't talk to anyone, just click your menu and head to LFR.

    Now the question is, are you going to fault the player? Or are you going to fault the designers for not encouraging social interaction/exploration/meaningful content in a game where the entire theme is that you are playing with millions of others around the world?

    How can you fault the designers if people refuse to socialize? You can't force them. They encourage social interaction quite a bit, but there's only so much they can do. If you don't want to socialize there is no system they could put in place where you would decided to socialize for the sake of being able to do it. They'd most often just find something else to do. I don't raid LFR and I speak with the people I raid with on a daily basis most of the time.

    This is solely on us as players and how we treat each other. You want a better multiplayer experience? Start playing with likeminded people. Blizzard's obsession with allowing every kind of player to succeed is part of the problem.

  8. #368
    Blah blah blah, wow sucks, vanilla was better, woe is me, I'm hardcore, all casuals ruined my game, thanks blizz.


    Nothing to see here, another thread of the same crap.

  9. #369
    I seriously don't get what people are complaining about. Yes, LFR is crap, but its NOT the only content out there, there is TONS of stuff to do - Real raiding, Proving Grounds, Timeless Isle (which is quite a decent way to get rid of dailies), Brawler's Guild, Pet Battles, running old instances for transmog, Flex, and for the the casuals there's always dungeons and scenerios. Yes, there is room for improvment, Timeless Isle could be better, more involving, and more story driven, Proving Grounds should have been more balanced and fine tuned and less RNG based, but at what point did the game offer so many things to do?

    If you're bored by Every single feature WoW offers, then obviously this isn't the game for you anymore, and nothing Blizzard do will please you.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Maulis425 View Post
    Blah blah blah, wow sucks, vanilla was better, woe is me, I'm hardcore, all casuals ruined my game, thanks blizz.


    Nothing to see here, another thread of the same crap.
    If you took atleast 30 seconds to skim through the post, you'd notice how the word casual and hardcore wasn't even in my post.
    I guess you could CTRL + F, if you don't have time to skim it.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    I seriously don't get what people are complaining about. Yes, LFR is crap, but its NOT the only content out there, there is TONS of stuff to do - Real raiding, Proving Grounds, Timeless Isle (which is quite a decent way to get rid of dailies), Brawler's Guild, Pet Battles, running old instances for transmog, Flex, and for the the casuals there's always dungeons and scenerios. Yes, there is room for improvment, Timeless Isle could be better, more involving, and more story driven, Proving Grounds should have been more balanced and fine tuned and less RNG based, but at what point did the game offer so many things to do?

    If you're bored by Every single feature WoW offers, then obviously this isn't the game for you anymore, and nothing Blizzard do will please you.
    It's not that there's no content, it's that there's no relevant content. Having been playing this game for 7 years, I can safely say that I have no desire in pet battles. I'm playing this game to play wow, not pokemon; so pet battles are artificially inflated "content" if you could even call it as such.

    Running old raids so I can change how I look is not content either. I will agree with Brawler's Guild/Proving grounds are nice though. The only issue is the former suffers from queue times and the latter really isn't that engaging. With that being said, it's still not content. Adding proving grounds is much like skirmishes for arena. It's cool tool to use, but it's not providing something you can't do else where(and actually get something useful for your time).

    There really isn't that much content, which is depressing. We're at the point now as we were at the end of cata. I've been gearing alts, because there's nothing left on my other chars when I'm not raiding.

  12. #372
    Playing through the same content on higher difficulty levels is never as fun as the first time experience.

    Most people's first experience through the content is this interactive Youtube video know as LFR. They do that and feel like they've "beaten" the raid, much like someone who plays a video game on the lowest difficulty setting does.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Allarius View Post
    How can you fault the designers if people refuse to socialize? You can't force them. They encourage social interaction quite a bit.
    How do they encourage socialization?
    I see only 4 things that encourage socialization in WoW.

    1. Normal/Heroic Raids. But with the advent of LFR, why do that when you can get near enough gear with the same look without having to socialize?
    2. Rated Battlegrounds. Same deal as LFR, Random BG's mean you never have to do the content by talking to people.
    3. Challenge Mode - 5mans that require socialization, too bad its only optional content.
    4. Guild Perks. If you want Guild perks, you have to join a guild. But plenty of guilds out there exist only to provide players with perks and funnel money to the GM, no socializing required.

    So where are all these encouraged socializations you are talking about?

  14. #374
    eventually all expansions reach this point.

    my issue with mop is that I am losing will to play it before I even login. at least before you get to that point after an hour or so, but now its just meh.

  15. #375
    In this topic, OP's post specifically: "I don't like the way certain aspects of the game come across so Blizzard should tailor the game specifically to my interests so that it can be good again."

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