Page 1 of 4
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1

    To all the "raiding is easy now" ppl.

    Hi community,

    Im here writing this out of sickness, my eyes are bleeding thanks to the quantity of ppl saying "raiding is easy" "the game is easy" "wow was better in vanilla".


    Lets start saying that I've been playing WoW for several hours everyday since 2004. I experienced every content in the game to the fullest, every difficulty, size, type, EVERYTHING.

    I personally am the kind of player that does everything in the game, even the stuff that nobody cares about like finishing the game to 100%, even completing the last quest.

    ----

    The important part of this topic:

    People have been saying raiding is easier lately, its not and I will explain why its not and why it feels easier.

    Many years ago players werent experienced enough, the game was new, everything was a little bit new for all of us except for the small bunch of players that came from another MMO, and eventhough it was new for them also.

    If you take a dedicated look into every single boss fight from Vanilla to WOTLK (instead of going to forums to say exactly the same everybody else says) you will find out the following:

    1) Bosses have less quantity of mechanics.
    2) The mechanics are pretty basic, based on a game that was way more basic (we are talking about many years ago).
    3) Performing such mechanics didnt require as much coordination, in general.

    What really was "harder" "annoying" and such was the PREPARATION TO RAID, Yes, preparation. Why? Well simple enough:

    1) In vanilla many raids required resistance gear that came from long farming and crafting.
    2) No gold inflation with prices for said resistance gear been high.
    3) Attunements, many raids required a quest chain for you to be able to JOIN that raid.
    4) Crafting geared "required" by many guilds.
    5) Consumables required some farming time.
    6) Most of guilds wouldnt take you without blue set gear (back in Vanilla and also happened in BC a bit too)
    7) To farm such gear you needed a lot of time and doing dungeons without a "queue" button, it ment that you had to fly to the dungeon after getting a group that might have had a person leaving in the middle of the run which meant you needed to find someone else, fly to a city, spam trade chat, etc.




    ------


    I hope you all see what I am talking about even when my english is pretty bad, raiding itself WAS NOT harder, the preparation was harder.

    And for the PVP side of the game we can say that Arenas brought the real "skill based" pvp gaming eventhought some comps were/are better or OP. PvP requires skill maybe.

    In my opinion more skill than PvE, PvE is about awareness, knowing your class and "fight studying" for progression plus improvising on specific situations.


    Thanks for reading.

    Sorry for bad english.

  2. #2
    Moderator Babylonius's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Behind you
    Posts
    1,232
    You make good points. The problem is that people posting that it was easier did not really do the things they think they did or claim they did. I can say Vanilla was great and harder all I want, when in reality I didn't start playing till BT came out and didn't really raid (Kara during SWP doesn't really count) till Wrath.

    Boss fights are more complicated to a certain extent, getting a raid together is less complicated to a similar extents. I think the argument as to what was harder is entirely subjective. I find bosses to be much harder now than they were, but I perform better and get farther through progression than I used to. I could say that if my skill has remained the same since BC (it hasn't) then it must be the bosses that have gotten easier to explain why I can progress farther now. The truth of the matter is that I've gotten much better at the game, making certain things easier.

    The people who played in Vanilla think it was hard bc it was new, and they can't give an opinion about how easy it is now bc its not new. New players now may think its hard because its new to them now as it was to others in previous expansions.
    - - Monk Class Forum Moderator - -
    14/14H WW/BrM Monk | Armory | WoWHeroes | Ascent

  3. #3
    Good points here, just wanted to add mine
    People sucked back then and that is the reason the game was so "hard".
    Today people are experienced players, specielly the long time gamers and todays boss fights are a lot more complicated than they were back in the days.

    Still i do feel that Gear plays a huge part in todays progression compared to how it was before and if u add that u got a lot of time to spend raiding, well basicily anyone could make it pretty far.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Blithe View Post
    Most of the Wildstar beta that I participated in consisted of global chat talking about how much better World of Warcraft was until we eventually logged off and logged onto Warcraft instead (that was hilarious).
    Quote Originally Posted by Beige View Post
    If you want to chill and enjoy the leveling experience go play SWTOR, the rest of us are in it to win it

  4. #4
    I think you missed 2 very important points that people tend to forget and overlook

    1) Healers sucked
    Especially in vanilla and TBC, every healer but Shamans and Priests were single target only. Prayer of Healing cost a lot of mana and was really slow at casting and shamans had chain heal but other then that all healers had to heal all 25/40 people in your raid was single target heals only. That's why in Sunwell most hardcore guilds stacked shamans solely for raid healing aka chain heal. In vanilla healers were even worse because mana regen was utter garbage and you could easily oom. In Wrath healers got a huge buff though hence the more complicated boss fights.

    2) Gear was quite terrible and extremely rare.
    Vanilla was by far the worse culprit of this. In Molton Core, a 40man raid, bosses dropped 2 items and 50% of the time it was gear you didn't even want and was DEed. Items had str and spirit or agility and spirit. They also used ilvl resources on +5 to frost resist and other random stats you never needed. Gear was so poorly itemized it took forever to gear up a 40m raid. TBC improved on this but gear was still very hard to come by and bosses still dropped not enough loot for 25m, I believe it was still 2 drops for 25m (+2 tier items).

    With very weak healers and very little raid upgrades progression became extremely slow and bosses seemed harder then they actually were mechanics wise. A lot of it was your group was under geared or your healers couldn't keep up.
    Last edited by Raone; 2013-11-04 at 05:03 PM.

  5. #5
    People have been saying raiding is easier lately, its not and I will explain why its not and why it feels easier.
    The problem is, feeling easier is more than enough of a sentiment. Noone (in their right mind, I hope) is really saying encounters were truly hard back then - of course they weren't compared to things like heroic Blackfuse or heroic Paragons.

    But on the other hand, content is designed with the community in mind. The devs are not isolated in a bubble and producing content for the sake of it. They know very well what the community is capable of doing, the addons they will create (they even adjust some boss mechanics to emulate addons in certain cases), the coordination they've acquired over the years.

    When you take this into account, then you can have the point of view that they create easier content for that community compared to how it felt in the past.

    A simple analogy would be a teacher giving tests to his class. If he knows he has a class filled with 8 year olds and gives them a test adapted to their knowledge - fine. Giving a test to the exact same class, 10 years later.... but suited for 12 year olds (when the class is full of 18s)... makes it a harder test sure, but these people are going to breeze through it because it is no longer suited to them. Would these students be allowed to call the new test easy? I don't know, your call.

    Whether this is a good or a bad thing I won't debate, I'll leave this to forum trolls. My point is simply that feeling personally challenged is the important part here, not the actual difficulty itself - it doesn't matter if something is actually challenging or not as long as it makes you feel like it is.
    Last edited by Mionelol; 2013-11-04 at 05:10 PM.

  6. #6
    What made old wow raiding harder was that there was a lot more personal responsiblity in raids. Almost every single fight had mechanics that penalized the whole raid if you screwed up, not just you. Now its much, much easier to hide bad players and have the responsibility on just a handful of good players.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  7. #7
    It's all relative. Good points have been made in this thread.

    Players have many more resources now as well. Much better addons, log sites, etc. Lei Shen may be technically more challenging than a lot of older fights, but considering each fight at its time, it being more difficult is not necessarily true.

  8. #8
    Scarab Lord MasterOfKnees's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    4,823
    The game most certainly offers a bigger challenge than it did in WotLK, so not only isn't the game easier than it's ever been, but people are praising the hell out of that expansion these days, so obviously there isn't a problem with easy raiding either. I mean, when a casual like me could go 11/12 HC in ICC, that's quite the sign that raiding was easier than it is today.

    As for the OP post. It's true that Vanilla would be a piece of cake if we did it today, people sucked back then, but Mione does also bring up a good point. It's not that it's easy by today's standards where we have tons of addons, much more experience and what not, but it's about the feeling of being challenged. Sure we sucked back then, but it still meant that there was a greater challenge to be found.

    However, I personally feel that the difficulty of raids is in a pretty nice position these days, especially with the introduction of Flex.

  9. #9
    Yep sorry raiding is easier.

    Contribute if you post
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-11-04 at 05:33 PM.


    Retired from PC gaming. All mmo account sold. Playing Destiny on X1. We(5) are looking for more french members for our Clan !!!!!

  10. #10
    raidings incredibly easy, like killing pandas can ever be difficult.

    Don't post to troll the thread
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-11-04 at 05:33 PM.

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral Antherios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Costa Rica
    Posts
    1,044
    If you say Vanilla raids were harder, you probably didnt played vanilla.

    The only reason they were "hard" was because since you had to bring 40 people, you were going to carry bads eventually, there is no way you could find 40 good players that had a schedule dedicated only to wow.

    Also, most specs had a 1 or 2 buttons rotation, thats it.

  12. #12
    Fact is, SoO IS easy, the first 11 bosses are an absolute cakewalk, raids shouldn't be designed with 90% easy bosses that you kill in 10 pulls and then have the other 10% be brickwalls, heck. Blackfuse isn't even THAT bad once you get the kill order down and survive the Empowered Laser + Magnet phase.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadwraith View Post
    Blackfuse isn't even THAT bad once you get the kill order down and survive the Empowered Laser + Magnet phase.
    I'm shocked! Are you actually saying that once you learn a fight it gets easier, my mind is blown.
    "The fact that you don't get it or like it is fine. The fact that you wanna ruin it for everyone else - that's why you're a cocksucker." - Bill Hicks
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    The playerbase has been desiring this for years and when it's finally here, everyone wants to grab a pitchfork. Ridiculous. This community is disgustingly toxic.
    Please send all PM's with a read receipt, that way both you and I will know I'm not reading them....

  14. #14
    so vanilla was an MMORPG and mist of pandaria is dungen /raid with lobby and que ? is that what u are trying to say ?

  15. #15
    Mechagnome Dragore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    In front of my computer
    Posts
    699
    Raiding is just as hard as it was back in Vanilla.

    Vanilla was defiantly more about community work; Helping guildies get that resist gear, running dungeons for gear together, attunements, et cetera. That was the main focus of vanilla, team work, so the fights weren't to complicated and they didn't need to be.

    Post Vanilla it started to change, community evolved as the population grew. This is completely normal. Think of the colonial era everyone had to do everything to survive but nowadays if we want food, instead of farming for it, we go to the local grocery store. Our perceptions have change and its hard for some people to accept that and grow/understand that the game is completely different. The elements around of have evolved, gameplay has evolved, expectations have evolved, but in the end its still the same difficulty.

  16. #16
    I never played in Vanilla but usually I refer to the early Cata raids for proper raid tuning.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadwraith View Post
    Fact is, SoO IS easy
    Well let's see. There are 26 25 man guilds and 17 10 man guilds who are 14/14 heroic and it's been out for 2 months. Or another way to put it 820 players out of the 7m+ who are subbed to this game have beat it on heroic. Yep it's easy so easy that 0.0117% of players have beaten it on the hardest difficulty after 2 months.

    Ok you said the 1st 11 bosses are easy. 206 guilds have beat the 11th boss on 25m and 295 on 10 man. 8100 players out of 7m+ or 0.1% of players. After 2 months. If it only took 10 pulls then everyone who tried would have the achievement after 2 weeks easily.
    Last edited by Abysal; 2013-11-04 at 05:38 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    I never played in Vanilla but usually I refer to the early Cata raids for proper raid tuning.
    4.0 was such a wonderful time...


    OT No, raiding is not easier, and is intact much much harder. Had a fight like Blackfuse existed in vanilla, nobody would have downed it.

    However, it has become ridiculously easy to kill the last raid boss, thank you LFR, and as a result people coming ino te game see less of a reason to go further since well they already downed Garrosh...

    Raiding itself is harder, but clearing te content at all is a pitiful joke with LFr

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Abysal View Post
    Well let's see. There are 26 25 man guilds and 17 10 man guilds who are 14/14 heroic and it's been out for 2 months. Or another way to put it 820 players out of the 7m+ who are subbed to this game have beat it on heroic. Yep it's easy so easy that 0.0117% of players have beaten it on the hardest difficulty after 2 months.

    Ok you said the 1st 11 bosses are easy. 206 guilds have beat the 11th boss on 25m and 295 on 10 man. 8100 players out of 7m+ or 0.1% of players. After 2 months. If it only took 10 pulls then everyone who tried would have the achievement after 2 weeks easily.
    Most will refuse to acknowledge that a minority of that that try to actually do complete the content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrandir View Post
    My starfall brings all the mobs to the yard.
    Laurellen - Druid Laurellin - Deathknight

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Abysal View Post
    Well let's see. There are 26 25 man guilds and 17 10 man guilds who are 14/14 heroic and it's been out for 2 months. Or another way to put it 820 players out of the 7m+ who are subbed to this game have beat it on heroic. Yep it's easy so easy that 0.0117% of players have beaten it on the hardest difficulty after 2 months.

    Ok you said the 1st 11 bosses are easy. 206 guilds have beat the 11th boss on 25m and 295 on 10 man. 8100 players out of 7m+ or 0.1% of players. After 2 months. If it only took 10 pulls then everyone who tried would have the achievement after 2 weeks easily.
    nice statistics, now please factor in that not all 7m are even TRYING nor care about clearing heroic mode, or aren't even level 90, or maybe don't raid at all.

    but to voice my own opinion as a heroic raider the first 11 are a joke, ToT felt much harder than SoO.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •