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  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Eh? They just removed 10 man heroic and shifted 25 heroic down to 20. In exchange, they added Flex tech to normal mode raids. But they've clearly made the point that LFR is for seeing the content and not serious character progression, which I'm happy with.
    Effectively they're killing heroic raiding. They just don't realize it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  2. #422
    Still waiting for nazgrim nerf, still 6 stacks today, it's supposed to be capped at 4. Adds hp must be nerfed as well as blizzard said. Nerfs to other bosses (as it's been said) are working fine and garrosh is much more manageable, as well as spoils.

  3. #423
    I don't see how it is a concern to anyone really.

    LFR is not meant to be some sort of learning course or something, it's just a story mode for people who can't or don't want to raid seriously and a gearing stepping stone for people who do want to transition to raiding on new characters or alts. It is also meant to give a taste of raiding to the curious and it does it nicely, IMO.

    I really don't understand why people want to turn a game into some sort of learning session, where every activity they do needs to teach them how to do stuff "teh pro way". I think people will learn better if you won't make every basic entry mode smash their faces into the ground, since they won't be saying "omg fuck it" every single moment then and be more interested in trying flex and eventually real raiding.

  4. #424
    However "tourist mode" may indicate that there won't be any need to nerf LFR ever again.
    I doubt that, given that they're changing the structure of raids again, this means the audience of LFR changes.
    I'm afraid that you didn't get what I meant. They clearly want to have less raid balancing problems (= work). That's why I think that the difficulty of the new LFR's will be on a 'bulletproof' level.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    What makes you think that the purpose of this game is to "improve" players? The purpose of a game is entertainment. If you want to get better at the game by all means do so. Quit telling other people how or why they should play.
    If you're in a group with other players whose performance dictates their own play experience, of course you can expect certain things from them, and vice versa. You can't expect to sign up for a five a side football game and then refuse to kick the ball. You're demonstrating the selfish attitude that systems like LFR only further encourage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Effectively they're killing heroic raiding. They just don't realize it yet.
    An interesting statement. Care to elaborate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I don't see how it is a concern to anyone really.

    LFR is not meant to be some sort of learning course or something, it's just a story mode for people who can't or don't want to raid seriously and a gearing stepping stone for people who do want to transition to raiding on new characters or alts. It is also meant to give a taste of raiding to the curious and it does it nicely, IMO.

    I really don't understand why people want to turn a game into some sort of learning session, where every activity they do needs to teach them how to do stuff "teh pro way". I think people will learn better if you won't make every basic entry mode smash their faces into the ground, since they won't be saying "omg fuck it" every single moment then and be more interested in trying flex and eventually real raiding.
    The problem is it can't serve all those 3 groups of people very well
    -The tourists will resent the alt farmers who want to get through everything at a rushed pace
    -The farmers who just want a quick run for their loot to they can move on their preferred raiding content resent the tourists who refuse to learn how to play and to a lesser extent the newbies who haven't learned yet
    -The newbies won't get a proper taste of raiding if the bosses are too easy and just fall over with everyone ignoring mechanics.

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Effectively they're killing heroic raiding. They just don't realize it yet.
    Well they seem to think the 10 man guilds will magically adapt and grow to 20. *shrug* I'm less optimistic about the realities of that happening then they are. Especially coming off a long break between SoO and WoD. We'll see though.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    If you're in a group with other players whose performance dictates their own play experience, of course you can expect certain things from them, and vice versa. You can't expect to sign up for a five a side football game and then refuse to kick the ball. You're demonstrating the selfish attitude that systems like LFR only further encourage.
    You're not forced to run LFR if you don't want to. If you play football with a group of third graders you can't complain that it's just touch foot ball, that tackling is penalized, and that half the kids on your team aren't giving it their all. If you want to play pro then go pro. Don't insist that all games must be pro games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    An interesting statement. Care to elaborate?
    In my experience many raiding guilds run 25 man normal groups "for fun" and then take the best players into their progression 10H group. This works out because you maintain a large roster of backup players and limit the members of your progression group to the best in your guild. By only supporting 20 man mythic, they've killed this. Guilds will now have to run two 10 man groups and then merge them into a 20-man mythic. Logistically it's going to be a huge nightmare. I don't think we'll see many guilds go beyond normal now. Even the hardcore 25-mans are going to be cutting raiders from their roster to conform to the new format. It's a lose-lose at all levels. That's why I think they're effectively killing "mythic" raiding.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  8. #428
    To this day, the Gates Of Retribution (second wing) is still by far the hardest wing, mostly because of Nazgrim...

    Poor Garrosh is easier than Nazgrim

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    You're not forced to run LFR if you don't want to. If you play football with a group of third graders you can't complain that it's just touch foot ball, that tackling is penalized, and that half the kids on your team aren't giving it their all. If you want to play pro then go pro. Don't insist that all games must be pro games.
    Which is why LFR should be nerfed so that the group of 3rd grade raiders can finish the bosses on their own, instead of relying on actual players who know what they're doing having to carry them through the fights. Then they could also reduce the rewards or offer more skill intensive gearing methods elsewhere to help actual raiders skip LFR and go straight to Normal mode.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Which is why LFR should be nerfed so that the group of 3rd grade raiders can finish the bosses on their own, instead of relying on actual players who know what they're doing having to carry them through the fights. Then they could also reduce the rewards
    To make raiders ego feel better. Yeah, don't hold your breath. Or better yet, do.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    To make raiders ego feel better. Yeah, don't hold your breath. Or better yet, do.
    I'm not the one comparing the LFR audience to 3rd graders. But it stands to reason that if they want trivial content, it should have trivial rewards.

    Well ok, technically I adopted the other guy's LFRaider=3rd grader comparison and ran with it.
    I don't think its an ego issue, raiders already know they're better at the game. They just often don't like grouping with people who are purposefully bad at it.
    Last edited by Tamerlane2; 2013-11-12 at 07:47 PM.

  12. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    I'm not the one comparing the LFR audience to 3rd graders. But it stands to reason that if they want trivial content, it should have trivial rewards.
    That's impossible to achieve, because Normal, Flex and LFR are trivial to the Heroic World First raiders, and Normal raiders find LFR trivial, but LFR raiders definitely do not find LFR trivial, otherwise there'd be no wipes in there.
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  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    That's impossible to achieve, because Normal, Flex and LFR are trivial to the Heroic World First raiders, and Normal raiders find LFR trivial, but LFR raiders definitely do not find LFR trivial, otherwise there'd be no wipes in there.
    Yeah, and normal mode gear is trivial to world first raiders, hopefully. In an ideal world, the itemisation would be set up so that if you completed and fully geared yourself in Mythic Tier X, you wouldn't find any upgrades in Tier X+1 LFR, Flex or Normal. In practice I don't think this has ever been the case. I know we got a big boost trying to finish off Ulduar hardmodes when ToC was released, because even the normal mode gear from there was 6 ilvls higher than Ulduar heroic drops, and obviously there was a lot more of it dropping.
    And ICC normal gear was better than ToC heroic.

    Currently we have
    Throne of Thunder normal ilvl 522
    Throne of Thunder heroic ilvl 535.
    Siege of Orgrimmar LFR ilvl 528.

    So there's an incentive for normal mode raiders and semi-heroic ones to run SoO LFR for gear right now, and that feels wrong.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Then they could also reduce the rewards or offer more skill intensive gearing methods elsewhere to help actual raiders skip LFR and go straight to Normal mode.
    I think that you and I fundamentally disagree on what constitutes a reward. To me the reward is the sense of accomplishment from tackling a difficult challenge. Sometimes that means powering through a bad LFR group to achieve victory, and other times it means flawlessly executing a fight with the same group of friends that I've been practicing with for weeks. The loot, to me, is actually a nerf to future fights. It's not a reward and never has been. Next expansion it's going to be vendor trash. I keep some of my old loot around for the memories of what I overcame to get it, but it's still absolute crap when compared to many MoP greens. My reward from LFR comes from what I put into it, as does my reward for Flex, Normal, or Heroic raiding. For that reason I have no problem with LFR giving out nice gear. For all I care LFR can give miniscule chances at heroic warforged gear. To be honest that might bring a new level of excitement to LFR. I'm sure the guys who won the super bowl can care less about the monetary value of their super bowl rings. The true value in those rings is in the memory of the victory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Currently we have
    Throne of Thunder normal ilvl 522
    Throne of Thunder heroic ilvl 535.
    Siege of Orgrimmar LFR ilvl 528.

    So there's an incentive for normal mode raiders and semi-heroic ones to run SoO LFR for gear right now, and that feels wrong.
    What are you talking about? My Little Panda Adventure Isle hands out burdens of eternity that you can use to upgrade to ilevel 535, and Flex SoO offers 540 gear. The only incentive they have to run LFR is to supplement deficiencies in tier sets, but they can run Flex just as easily (more easily) for that. Also nothing is stopping them from queueing for LFR as a guild. Then they won't even have to consort with the unwashed masses to finish their sets.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post

    <snip>

    For all I care LFR can give miniscule chances at heroic warforged gear. To be honest that might bring a new level of excitement to LFR. I'm sure the guys who won the super bowl can care less about the monetary value of their super bowl rings. The true value in those rings is in the memory of the victory.
    Its nice that you enjoy the martyrdom of running LFR with bad players. I think my issue is that if it offers a faster way to gear up for whatever progression raiding you're into, I'd feel forced to do it when I'd really rather not. Especially when so many LFRaiders have a toxic attitude towards raiders. The gear just shouldn't be relevant.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlane2 View Post
    Its nice that you enjoy the martyrdom of running LFR with bad players. I think my issue is that if it offers a faster way to gear up for whatever progression raiding you're into, I'd feel forced to do it when I'd really rather not. Especially when so many LFRaiders have a toxic attitude towards raiders. The gear just shouldn't be relevant.
    And that's a non-issue because it is not faster to gear up through LFR. There are two other readily available modes on separate lockouts (flex and normal), they give much better gear, and they're often cleared much faster than LFR. No one "forces" you to do anything. I don't know how what you're talking about with regards to a toxic attitude towards raiders. I have never encountered that. It just so happens that many raiders go in there and make asses of themselves, so people respond in kind. That's people having a toxic attitude towards those who act like jackasses, and that's understandable. As a raider in LFR I often find that other players appreciate having me there more often than not. Asking that LFR loot get gimped even further than it already is just so that you don't feel inclined to go in there for gear is selfish on your part, unfair to those who are limited to running LFR, and completely irrational to boot.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  17. #437
    I insist with nazgrim: anyone can confirm that the nerf MIGHT have been applied in the last few days? Till 1 week ago I still saw stacks going up to 6-8, while according to the nerf they should cap at 4, but today I killed him twice, stacks went max to 4, either the tanks were incredibly precise in both occasions, or seems it works now. As for adds as well, their hp seems DIFFERENT compared to what I remember, anyone knows for sure?

  18. #438
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    LFR is one of the worst things that happened to WoW in my opinion. It just spoon feeds people free loot and makes people feel special because they are doing a 25man hc dungeon thinking they are actually raiding. Dumbing down the content will not make players any better it just promotes lazyness on most players parts. They should remove LFR altogether bunching 25 random people up and expecting them to all work good together will never happen.

  19. #439
    Have any of you qued for LFR lately, its so much worse than TOT. Half the raid does under 50k dps, people leave after every attempt, ques take hours. They need to stop nerfing the bosses and bump the ilvl req to like 515, maybe bump lfr gear to 530. Either that or make the 496 timeless gear not complete and utter garbage, because people in full timeless are literally ruining LFR. LFR was at least playable in TOT, it was a suffer but SOO lfr is downright awful.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    Have any of you qued for LFR lately, its so much worse than TOT. Half the raid does under 50k dps, people leave after every attempt, ques take hours. They need to stop nerfing the bosses and bump the ilvl req to like 515, maybe bump lfr gear to 530. Either that or make the 496 timeless gear not complete and utter garbage, because people in full timeless are literally ruining LFR. LFR was at least playable in TOT, it was a suffer but SOO lfr is downright awful.
    I have to agree with you on this... I had a group yesterday in LFR, (a decent group... Everyone listened, did what limited mechanics there was) BUT the main issue was they were only doing 50-75K dps in their 515 gear........ I mean I was tanking part 2 on my blood DK , and he only has 502 ilvl, but he was third in DPS on on the Galarakas (sp?) fight..... WTF?!?!?

    Long story short... People arent doing DPS, or they are literally sitting there and are auto attacking.... And the endless trolls as well, that I have encountered..... Anyone else have this problem with people running into Orgrimmar pulling trash way before the tanks, and wiping us.... Then stealthing, pulling, and as people rez pull again, over and over....

    Yes we eventually all died, stayed dead, and booted them, but the point is they are doing this more and more frequently.................

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucarocks92 View Post
    They should remove LFR altogether bunching 25 random people up and expecting them to all work good together will never happen.
    Well at least in 6.0 they are implementing flex rules, in regards to people leaving, so this shouldnt be an issue.... What I mean is If you get rid of the idiots in LFR, and still have a "decent" group you can actually continue, instead of having to wait.......
    Last edited by johnnymcdanger; 2013-11-16 at 01:02 AM.

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