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  1. #221
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    1. It doesn't matter to me. I'm cool with neutrality.

    2. I'm a bit skeptical, so I'll just wait and see what happens. In my opinion I can see Alleria staying neutral, while Vereesa stays in the Alliance and Sylvanas in the Horde. Even things out.

    3. I would rather have either one/both die during the expansion than off-screen. It kind of defeats the purpose of building up their appearance if they die and we don't see them.

    4. I will save up my Ironpaw tokens, buy a Flippable Table, and abuse the hell out of it for what it's worth.

  2. #222
    Herald of the Titans Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Point of order: Alleria and Turalyon have no connection to the Alliance of Stormwind either. If you get to count Alliance of Lordaeron as Alliance of Stormwind, we get to count Old Horde as New Horde
    Except Stormwind was and has always been a part of the Alliance since its inception.

    Stormwind was destroyed during the First war and was being rebuilt the entire time between the second and third wars. While it had no direct influence in Alliance politics at the time, it always was held as a part of Alliance Territory.

    The Old Horde has no Affiliation with the new one, Thrall deliberately made that note of distinction when creating his Horde, he wanted to not be associated with the likes of Blackhand and Gorefiend, and wanted a better start overall for his people.

    The Old Horde was disbanded after its defeat on Azeroth, Thrall simply took the name and reshaped it to fit his image of a united people. Anyone in outland who still claims to be a part of the Horde represents the Old Horde and no one else, they lost their ties to what the Horde represented when the Dark Portal closed.

    I know alot of Horde players complain that Alliance has alot of heroes left, but tell me, which ones aside from faction leaders get any character development? Which ones helped us during this new war? Which ones were on the battlefield on the front lines with us? Mekkatorque? Genn? or maybe Danath?

    Blizzard made the decision to make the Old Horde irredeemable, don't use the Alliance as a scapegoat as to why their heroes should be cut down to be on par with yours, whom for the most part get better character development on an expansion basis than most leaders of the Alliance have for the entire history of the game.

    I want to see new heroes for the Horde, ones who are self made and Identifiable, but don't make this about the Alliance having too many heroes, you guys already say 'deal with it' to Alliance players on every other fucking occasion when it comes to this game, you should be able to 'suck it up' when it comes to lore characterization.
    And should he be a prophet of It's coming, he shall be cast out by his kin and his peers, for they cannot comprehend and fear the end of the corrupt empire. - Unknown, 3/1/2012
    I am Lothaeryn, Dragonborn of Nirn and Paladin of Azeroth. Hear my voice and tremble... Bask in my radiance and be inspired...
    For I am the Hand of Dawn, and justice shall be done by my shout and by my blade.

  3. #223
    So, the old Horde and the new Horde are two different things. Fine.

    The old Alliance is still pretty much the same Alliance but without Lordaeron.

    So why the fuck would Alleria join the Alliance when they were the ones that drove her people into the Horde in the first place? Cause if you claim the Alliance is one and the same with the one she was in, in order to "claim" her as an Alliance hero, then be aware that you also agree to the fact that it was the same Alliance that tried to eliminate the Belfs WHILE they were still members of that Alliance and WHILE they were assisting that Alliance. Add that on top of the recent Belf massacre in Dalaran and hello Horde Alleria.

  4. #224
    Banned Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    The Old Horde has no Affiliation with the new one, Thrall deliberately made that note of distinction when creating his Horde, he wanted to not be associated with the likes of Blackhand and Gorefiend, and wanted a better start overall for his people.

    The Old Horde was disbanded after its defeat on Azeroth, Thrall simply took the name and reshaped it to fit his image of a united people. Anyone in outland who still claims to be a part of the Horde represents the Old Horde and no one else, they lost their ties to what the Horde represented when the Dark Portal closed.
    You forgot the part where Doomhammer (Warchief of the "Old Horde") Was originally the one liberating the camps, and made Thrall Warchief with his dying breath, it IS a continuation.

    The "Horde of Draenor" was the same Horde that Kargath Bladefist, Grom Hellscream, AND Teron Gorefiend served following the Horde's defeat in the Second War. It was basically an offshoot of Doomhammer's Horde, which Thrall's Horde is a continuation of.

    Keep in mind that Kargath is a cultural icon, having multiple locations named after him (Bladefist Bay, Keep in the Warsong Logging camp, Badlands Horde post..) And being spoken of favorably in Horde Quest text ("In his prime, Kargath Bladefist was a fine warrior, a hero and example to his people. His death is a blow to us all, but especially to Warchief Thrall. Whatever happened to him in his final days, we should not forget the orc Kargath once was, nor the lessons to be learned from his downfall.")

    So it's safe to say that characters from the Horde of Draenor are fair game.

    Also, Thrall's Horde never mentioned "Gorefiend" as someone they wanted to stay away from, really the only difference between Thrall's Horde and Doomhammer's Horde, is that Doomhammer relied on Warlocks and Demon Magic out of necessity, Thrall's Horde swept it under the rug. Hell, Garrosh has a more appropriate stance on Warlocks than Thrall does...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    you guys already say 'deal with it' to Alliance players on every other fucking occasion when it comes to this game, you should be able to 'suck it up' when it comes to lore characterization.
    We wouldn't have to say "deal with it" if you guys didn't bitch about every single fucking thing in this game (Malfurion's aggro table!)
    Last edited by Wildberry; 2013-11-07 at 06:42 AM.

  5. #225
    If Turalyon and Alleria aren't crushing every Orcish, Forsaken, or Demonic skull in sight with great vengeance and furious anger, then this game can go fuck itself.

  6. #226
    Herald of the Titans Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    So, the old Horde and the new Horde are two different things. Fine.

    The old Alliance is still pretty much the same Alliance but without Lordaeron.

    So why the fuck would Alleria join the Alliance when they were the ones that drove her people into the Horde in the first place? Cause if you claim the Alliance is one and the same with the one she was in, in order to "claim" her as an Alliance hero, then be aware that you also agree to the fact that it was the same Alliance that tried to eliminate the Belfs WHILE they were still members of that Alliance and WHILE they were assisting that Alliance. Add that on top of the recent Belf massacre in Dalaran and hello Horde Alleria.
    First, two things about trying to demonize the Alliance for destroying Quel'Thalas:

    1. if you are trying to argue that Arthas was representing the Alliance when he marched up and raised Kel'Thuzad through the Sunwell, killed everyone not Undead in sight, and raised Sylvannas as the Banshee Queen. Then you should walk out this thread right now.

    2. If you are arguing Garithos sending the Blood Elves to their deaths, you have some merit in that argument. But you should also consider that Garithos was a lord of Lordaeron's hierarchy, and thus represented the Alliance as a regent in place of the Absence of authority in the area.

    Ultimately however, Garithos, as Grand Marshal, was the only person representing the Alliance forces at the time, no one in the south knew what became of Lordaeron when he sent the Blood Elves on their suicide mission, Stormwind was not represented in the decisions he made up north, and had they known what that racist bigot was doing they would have recalled him from his line of duty immediately for questioning.

    If Stormwind had known about the conditions in Lordaeron, they would have sent a contingent of troops to help secure territory before the Scourge could regroup effectively. More commanders would have been sent to assess the situation and Garithos would not have been directly in charge of every soldier there.

    Garithos represented the Alliance because he was a political figure in Lordaeron, and being the only person of standing rank in the north only made him a political despot trying to seize power while no one was looking, and being the racist he was, nothing else could have been expected of him when he tried to kill the Blood Elves to secure his authority.
    And should he be a prophet of It's coming, he shall be cast out by his kin and his peers, for they cannot comprehend and fear the end of the corrupt empire. - Unknown, 3/1/2012
    I am Lothaeryn, Dragonborn of Nirn and Paladin of Azeroth. Hear my voice and tremble... Bask in my radiance and be inspired...
    For I am the Hand of Dawn, and justice shall be done by my shout and by my blade.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    I know alot of Horde players complain that Alliance has alot of heroes left, but tell me, which ones aside from faction leaders get any character development? Which ones helped us during this new war? Which ones were on the battlefield on the front lines with us? Mekkatorque? Genn? or maybe Danath?
    When you are willing to get your asses handed to you Horde style then we may talk about faction leader "screen time". As it stands, it was your lame whining that created the MOP story, but you are still whining cause the Alliance didn't get enough face time in an expansion where the Horde loses their Warchief (the second time).

    You say you want character development, but cry every time Blizz puts one of "your" lore characters in danger.

  8. #228
    The Patient AndreiBD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaikal21 View Post
    If one of these happen :


    1) Turalyon and Alleria follow the path of Tirion/Rhonin, and become neutral to the Horde, for the greater good.
    2) Turalyon is still Alliance but Alleria finds out about what happened to her kingdom and the Blood Elves, and decides to join Lor'themar.
    3) We find out that one of them is dead, or dies in the process of the expansion.
    4) They don't show up at all, for another expansion.


    If you want my personal opinion on this, i'd like both of them to show up and join the Alliance. Damn, they even have their own statues in Stormwind, to me they are two important heroes of the Alliance.
    But i have this feeling...that Alleria will choose to protect her kingdom, Quel'Thalas.
    I guess it'll be a tough decision for her : To stay with her husband and her sister Vereesa , or fight for Quel'Thalas...and join her other sister, Sylvanas.
    1. yes but i`m certain it will happen
    2. no but i dont think it will be the case
    3. no , heroes need to start dying to make the lore interesting and plausible. We had several world threats , fought countless world threatening villains yet our leaders are unscratched, and keep multiplying

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    I know alot of Horde players complain that Alliance has alot of heroes left, but tell me, which ones aside from faction leaders get any character development? Which ones helped us during this new war? Which ones were on the battlefield on the front lines with us? Mekkatorque? Genn? or maybe Danath?

    Blizzard made the decision to make the Old Horde irredeemable, don't use the Alliance as a scapegoat as to why their heroes should be cut down to be on par with yours, whom for the most part get better character development on an expansion basis than most leaders of the Alliance have for the entire history of the game.

    I want to see new heroes for the Horde, ones who are self made and Identifiable, but don't make this about the Alliance having too many heroes, you guys already say 'deal with it' to Alliance players on every other fucking occasion when it comes to this game, you should be able to 'suck it up' when it comes to lore characterization.
    I can't say what it is for other players, but for me, I'm still kind of stinging from killing off half the familiar faces in Org. After killing off Nazgrim and Thathung and all the rest... what were we fighting for again? Because it feels like there's no one left.

    I've just never connected to leaders, Thrall, Varian, Baine, Tyrande, etc. the way I connect to the little NPCs. The ones that kinda feel like their on my level, Cho, Nazgrim, Taylor.

  10. #230
    Herald of the Titans Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    You forgot the part where Doomhammer (Warchief of the "Old Horde") Was originally the one liberating the camps, and made Thrall Warchief with his dying breath, it IS a continuation.

    The "Horde of Draenor" was the same Horde that Kargath Bladefist, Grom Hellscream, AND Teron Gorefiend served following the Horde's defeat in the Second War. It was basically an offshoot of Doomhammer's Horde, which Thrall's Horde is a continuation of.

    Keep in mind that Kargath is a cultural icon, having multiple locations named after him (Bladefist Bay, Keep in the Warsong Logging camp, Badlands Horde post..) And being spoken of favorably in Horde Quest text ("In his prime, Kargath Bladefist was a fine warrior, a hero and example to his people. His death is a blow to us all, but especially to Warchief Thrall. Whatever happened to him in his final days, we should not forget the orc Kargath once was, nor the lessons to be learned from his downfall.")

    So it's safe to say that characters from the Horde of Draenor are fair game.

    Also, Thrall's Horde never mentioned "Gorefiend" as someone they wanted to stay away from, really the only difference between Thrall's Horde and Doomhammer's Horde, is that Doomhammer relied on Warlocks and Demon Magic out of necessity, Thrall's Horde swept it under the rug. Hell, Garrosh has a more appropriate stance on Warlocks than Thrall does...



    We wouldn't have to say "deal with it" if you guys didn't bitch about every single fucking thing in this game (Malfurion's aggro table!)
    you do realize that Doomhammer was also responsible for most the crimes the Old Horde is associated with? In that case, Thrall can be held accountable for the Genocide of the Draenei AND the High Elves, as the Horde is a continuation right?

    If you want to go that route, then you damn better well be ready to atone for a fuckton of crimes you now claim responsibility for.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    When you are willing to get your asses handed to you Horde style then we may talk about faction leader "screen time". As it stands, it was your lame whining that created the MOP story, but you are still whining cause the Alliance didn't get enough face time in an expansion where the Horde loses their Warchief (the second time).

    You say you want character development, but cry every time Blizz puts one of "your" lore characters in danger.
    in what danger was varian? what danger was Tyrande? I didnt see any danger associated with them? Thats not MY fault if BLIZZARD decides to be bad at writing conflict for both sides.

    Every time the Alliance player base makes a complaint, they are complaining to BLIZZARD, not the Horde player base. It is ultimately Blizzard who makes the shots, who writes who lives and dies, we simply make our voice known about those decisions.
    And should he be a prophet of It's coming, he shall be cast out by his kin and his peers, for they cannot comprehend and fear the end of the corrupt empire. - Unknown, 3/1/2012
    I am Lothaeryn, Dragonborn of Nirn and Paladin of Azeroth. Hear my voice and tremble... Bask in my radiance and be inspired...
    For I am the Hand of Dawn, and justice shall be done by my shout and by my blade.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    First, two things about trying to demonize the Alliance for destroying Quel'Thalas:

    1. if you are trying to argue that Arthas was representing the Alliance when he marched up and raised Kel'Thuzad through the Sunwell, killed everyone not Undead in sight, and raised Sylvannas as the Banshee Queen. Then you should walk out this thread right now.

    2. If you are arguing Garithos sending the Blood Elves to their deaths, you have some merit in that argument. But you should also consider that Garithos was a lord of Lordaeron's hierarchy, and thus represented the Alliance as a regent in place of the Absence of authority in the area.

    Ultimately however, Garithos, as Grand Marshal, was the only person representing the Alliance forces at the time, no one in the south knew what became of Lordaeron when he sent the Blood Elves on their suicide mission, Stormwind was not represented in the decisions he made up north, and had they known what that racist bigot was doing they would have recalled him from his line of duty immediately for questioning.

    If Stormwind had known about the conditions in Lordaeron, they would have sent a contingent of troops to help secure territory before the Scourge could regroup effectively. More commanders would have been sent to assess the situation and Garithos would not have been directly in charge of every soldier there.

    Garithos represented the Alliance because he was a political figure in Lordaeron, and being the only person of standing rank in the north only made him a political despot trying to seize power while no one was looking, and being the racist he was, nothing else could have been expected of him when he tried to kill the Blood Elves to secure his authority.
    Really? Basically means you choose to acknowledge the old Alliance only in a way that benefits you. Douchebaggery at it's best! Like it or not Garithos was an appointed leader of that Alliance, by popular choice or by rank, does not matter, the fact is he was ALLIANCE when he condemned the elves to death with the rest of the same Alliance carrying out his orders.

    Sylvanas killing his hypocrite ass was "justice" of a sort for the Belfs.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    So, the old Horde and the new Horde are two different things. Fine.

    The old Alliance is still pretty much the same Alliance but without Lordaeron.

    So why the fuck would Alleria join the Alliance when they were the ones that drove her people into the Horde in the first place? Cause if you claim the Alliance is one and the same with the one she was in, in order to "claim" her as an Alliance hero, then be aware that you also agree to the fact that it was the same Alliance that tried to eliminate the Belfs WHILE they were still members of that Alliance and WHILE they were assisting that Alliance. Add that on top of the recent Belf massacre in Dalaran and hello Horde Alleria.
    I'm sure any Alliance commander would've sentenced the Blood elves to death if they witnessed their betrayal by siding with the Naga. The Naga were a threat to the Alliance and still are; Garithos just got something out of their execution. Furthermore, Kael'thas didn't even have to have his nation rejoin the Alliance, an Alliance he already thought was failing. It was his own decision to make himself an underling to Garithos. And a Blood elf abused the neutrality of the Kirin Tor for Garrosh's own evil deeds; the purge wasn't all that unnecessary considering this fact. Adding all of these to the equation, I would assume that Alleria would be Alliance, and not neutral or Horde.
    High elves can be playable. You have nothing against them except for population arguments (which we have no numbers on), a blue post (which is already retconned based on the fact that Blood elves are playable), and an Encyclopedia (which hasn't been updated since pre-TBC; and the Silver Covenant makes two out of three claims on their status within the Encyclopedia void). So yes, High elves are just as likely as any other race in-terms of playability.

  13. #233
    Herald of the Titans Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Really? Basically means you choose to acknowledge the old Alliance only in a way that benefits you. Douchebaggery at it's best! Like it or not Garithos was an appointed leader of that Alliance, by popular choice or by rank, does not matter, the fact is he was ALLIANCE when he condemned the elves to death with the rest of the same Alliance carrying out his orders.

    Sylvanas killing his hypocrite ass was "justice" of a sort for the Belfs.
    Garithos WAS a hypocrite, that's what im trying to fucking tell you. He represented the Alliance because the Alliance thought they could trust him with power, it turned out he was a racist bigot who tried to claim land for himself in any way possible.

    Do you count Garrosh's Actions as a representation of the Horde? when he broke off his ties with his allies and tried to kill them for his own selfish goals? No? Then what difference is there with Garithos? He did the same fucking thing!

    EDIT: Its 2AM here, ill continue this at another time.
    Last edited by Lothaeryn; 2013-11-07 at 07:02 AM.
    And should he be a prophet of It's coming, he shall be cast out by his kin and his peers, for they cannot comprehend and fear the end of the corrupt empire. - Unknown, 3/1/2012
    I am Lothaeryn, Dragonborn of Nirn and Paladin of Azeroth. Hear my voice and tremble... Bask in my radiance and be inspired...
    For I am the Hand of Dawn, and justice shall be done by my shout and by my blade.

  14. #234
    Epic! icausewipes's Avatar
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    Blizz could give each their own xpac, gushing with Alliance lore, and Alliance players will find something to whine about.
    “How my hair look, Mike? ”

  15. #235
    Banned Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    you do realize that Doomhammer was also responsible for most the crimes the Old Horde is associated with? In that case, Thrall can be held accountable for the Genocide of the Draenei AND the High Elves, as the Horde is a continuation right?

    If you want to go that route, then you damn better well be ready to atone for a fuckton of crimes you now claim responsibility for.
    I'm not claiming responsibility for any of those crimes, the Genocide of the Draenei is on Gul'dan and Kil'jaeden, Doomhammer eradicated the Shadow Council, and was going to kill Gul'dan, however, Gul'dan bargained for his life with the promise of soldiers to counter the Human mages, Doomhammer thought by keeping him on a short leash, he would get what he wanted and Gul'dan would remain powerless, that leash wasn't short enough apparently...

    The High Elves willingly involved themselves with the Alliance in the Second War, the First War was could be called unjustified, the Second War, however, is defendable...Were the Orcs supposed to just wait for the Humans to come back and reclaim Stormwind? Or retreat back to Draenor (The planet that was barely sustaining life, let alone an entire race.) and wait for a potential attack by the Humans? At that point the Shadow Council had manipulated far too much, it was "us or them".

    Or are you talking about Lich King Ner'zhul? After he was intercepted by Kil'jaeden at the end of "Beyond the Dark Portal" Ner'zhul was no longer a member of the Horde, he was temporarily aligned with the Burning Legion and then broke away. Keep in mind by that point Ner'zhul had suffered merciless torture at the hands of Kil'jaeden, but anyway, long story short, that's not our fault.

    Also, I think you mean "Attempted Genocide", and only one of your arguments is half way defendable...

    Either way, the Horde isn't responsible for either of those, blame Gul'dan and the LICH KING.

    If you want to play the blame game though, I blame the Draenei for not giving the Orcs any warning about the Burning Legion, or Kil'jaeden the DECIEVER, they were partly responsible for the Blood Curse....

  16. #236
    1. Mad
    2. It would make for a more interesting story than both going Alliance or neutral.
    3. Mad
    4. Don't care

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    Garithos WAS a hypocrite, that's what im trying to fucking tell you. He represented the Alliance because the Alliance thought they could trust him with power, it turned out he was a racist bigot who tried to claim land for himself in any way possible.

    Do you count Garrosh's Actions as a representation of the Horde? when he broke off his ties with his allies and tried to kill them for his own selfish goals? No? Then what difference is there with Garithos? He did the same fucking thing!

    EDIT: Its 2AM here, ill continue this at another time.

    Same thing? Perhaps. But considering that most of the Horde was fighting Garrosh and none of the Alliance were fighting Garithos, well, that just not makes it the same thing.

    But I like how the Alliance apologists are trying to make it look like Garrithos was not part of "their" Alliance cause he sucked, but Alleria was cause she's cool.

  18. #238
    Bloodsail Admiral Serenais's Avatar
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    To be honest, I am hoping that they will be Alliance heroes, with the Horde getting their own heroes back (Rexxar and Garona would work in that aspect, in my opinion; just as an example). I fully expect Alleria pulling a full 180 (do remember, she hated orcs so much that she risked her own wellbeing to get a chance at slaughtering a few more; so her joining the Horde now, after they basically attempted to pull a Second War all over again, would be rather drastic) and going Horde only, while Turalyon will go neutral, join the Argent Dawn/Crusade and end up largely inactive (inactivity is to be expected, though, the guy is in his late 60s/early 70s). Call me a pessimist, but...
    Yeah. Call me a pessimist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Same thing? Perhaps. But considering that most of the Horde was fighting Garrosh and none of the Alliance were fighting Garithos, well, that just not makes it the same thing.

    But I like how the Alliance apologists are trying to make it look like Garrithos was not part of "their" Alliance cause he sucked, but Alleria was cause she's cool.
    I would like to ask WHAT Alliance should have fought Garithos back there and then. You might recall that Lordaeron was freshly destroyed, and the nearest Alliance power was thus south of Thandol Span, Ironforge - quarter of the continent away. Now, there's no Internet in WoW, and while Garithos could have been checked upon by other Alliance powers at that time, they probably had more important business to take care of, like finding out what hapenned TO Lordaeron in the first place. And even if they did, they would have to send ships and/or troops to stop him. Do take a look at the map of the planet and tell me. How long would it take for medievial technology to travel from Ironforge and/or Stormwind to Southshore? Mind you, it took several MONTHS for ship from Europe to cross Atlantic to America in roughly similar times in reality, so do the calculation and tell me WHO could have stopped Garithos from the genocide attempt right then and there.
    Another thing about Garithos is that there is no proof that he actually WAS given any authority over the area he tried to extert it upon. He was most likely just the highest surviving representative of anything resembling Lordaeron military, unless you wish to state that Garithos was sent from Stormwind to set Lordaeron back to order. That would in turn beg a question WHY would Kael'thas feel subordinate to Garithos then in the first place, since Stormwind wouldn't be able to send large force on such short notice, thus Garithos would be there with just a handful of troops AND thus would render Kael'thas THE supreme Alliance commander in the area simply by the number of force under his command - Garithos could not do much more than provide poisonous advice.

    Alleria, on the other hand, fought the Horde when the Horde was at its darkest, unless you want to tell me that genocide of Stormwind and several other attempted ones (I do recall from "Tides of Darkness" that Orgrim Doomhammer himself wanted to kill EVERYTHING on the world that didn't end up joining the Horde, thus he was well under way in genocide attempts at Ironforge, Quel'thalas and Lordaeron - and that was what he thought was necessary to regain the Horde's HONOR), and now she would be coming back right after the Horde vaporised a city and attempted to seise YET ANOTHER continent. Sounds familiar, does it not?
    I could also remind you that Theramore was the city with larget High Elven population outside Stormwind. That might be YET ANOTHER stinger she might feel against the Horde.

    As for Garrosh's actions and the Horde's accountability, may I remind you WHEN did the other Horde leaders break off in rebelion? It was NOT after Thal'darah grove, not after Theramore, it wasn't even after it was clear that no reasonable peace with the Alliance or even a cease fire (something the Trolls might be interested in, considering that Echo Isles are practically undefended and fully open to a naval invasion), not even after Garrosh tried to have Vol'jin assasinated, they did so when Vol'jin reappeared and told them that Garrosh was up to no good and that he might be a threat to THEM. Attrocities do NOT seem to matter that much in that aspect. I would also like to remind you that both Vol'jin and Baine were present during the Siege of Theramore, personally participating in attack on the city. If they did not realise that after the city was technically navally blockaded (keeping a navy closeby is technically a blockade - you do not evacuate on the open sea if the enemy can pick your transport ships one by one at will) that a civilian slaughter WAS going to happen anyway, then they are clearly unfit for military command.

    So. I'm sorry, but Garrosh DID what he did during the time he was a RECOGNISED Warchief of the Horde and he remained unopposed LONG time after that. Do NOT say that he is something the Horde has nothing to do with.
    Apologies for the rant, but I really do NOT like people twisting history because it suits them. Be it fictional or otherwise.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post

    Point of order: Alleria and Turalyon have no connection to the Alliance of Stormwind either. If you get to count Alliance of Lordaeron as Alliance of Stormwind, we get to count Old Horde as New Horde
    It dont work that way, because Old Horde WAS an Evil Horde driven by warlocks and demons (and later by still raged warriors). Most of old Horde didn't agreed that they were wrong, they refused to accept Thrall as warchief and his shamanistic ways "Oh he don't want to kill everyone and claim Azeroth for himself? Then he is weak and his orcs are traitors!".

    So, orcs created new kingdom led by new warchief with new ideology, and created union with completely new allies and called it "Horde". While there still was Dark Horde and Fel Horde, who claimed them to be the true Horde.

    While Alliance wasn't disbanded, actually if you listen to human intro (old one) there are words "the people of Stormwind remain steadfast in their commitment to the Grand Alliance."

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Same thing? Perhaps. But considering that most of the Horde was fighting Garrosh and none of the Alliance were fighting Garithos, well, that just not makes it the same thing.

    But I like how the Alliance apologists are trying to make it look like Garrithos was not part of "their" Alliance cause he sucked, but Alleria was cause she's cool.
    He WAS part of Alliance and so what?

    1) Garithos was self-appointed leader of his own faction (like Genn in Gilneas right now). It wasn't like he is a Stormwind commander send there.

    2) No one was even aware of his personality nor of situation in Lordaeron, there are no internet or mobile phones in Azeroth.

    3) Even Blood Elves themselves don't blame Alliance, they blame Garithos and Kirin Tor. (In the shadow of the sun) Why should you?
    Last edited by Lins; 2013-11-07 at 08:08 AM.

  20. #240
    Bloodsail Admiral Serenais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lins View Post
    It dont work that way, because Old Horde WAS an Evil Horde driven by warlocks and demons (and later by still raged warriors). Most of old Horde didn't agreed that they were wrong, they refused to accept Thrall as warchief and his shamanistic ways "Oh he don't want to kill everyone and claim Azeroth for himself? Then he is weak and his orcs are traitors!".
    I half tend to agree there. While Thrall's Horde was diametrically different from the one that preceded it, and, in fact, Thrall more or less remade Horde from scratch, he also took the mantle of Warchief directly from Doomhammer, so there is some sense of continuity there. The only responsibility that could be carried through would however have to be tied directly to the office of Warchief - all other Horde "instutions" basically ceased to exist after the Second War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lins View Post
    So, orcs created new kingdom led by new warchief with new ideology, and created union with completely new allies and called it "Horde". While there still was Dark Horde and Fel Horde, who claimed them to be the true Horde.
    I would more call it a chiefdom, since the Horde doesn't look much like a monarchy, but that's nitpicking from my side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lins View Post
    While Alliance wasn't disbanded, actually if you listen to human intro (old one) there are words "the people of Stormwind remain steadfast in their commitment to the Grand Alliance."
    It's not really easy to say whether that is entirely correct. The original Alliance was called "The Alliance of Lordaeron", and was made during the times when Kingdom of Stormwind existed only on paper; on top of that, there is no record in neither Tides of Darkness or Beyond the Dark Portal books that either Anduin Lothar or Varian Wrynn did actually join it; even if Anduin Lothar was the highest Alliance commander during Second War. Also, the Terenas II renounced any claims he could have on the Kingdom of Stormwind and the Tides of Darkness book seemed to imply that he tried to have others follow suit. And it could have commitements to the "Grand Alliance", question is whether that is the "current Alliance", or the original one. Even if it is the second case, it would imply simply that, commitement, not necessarily membership. Especially since in Beyond the Dark Portal, the Kingdom of Stormwind seems fully independent, not being a vassal or at least a partial suzerain of any of the Lordaeron kingdoms, or the Alliance of Lordaeron as a whole. The Alliance definitelly did have troops stationed inside the territory claimed by the Kingdom of Stormwind, I give you that. It doesn't imply membership either, though - we do have many even current RL examples where one nation/power has troops in some other nation's territory without violating said nation's sovereignity and/or integrity.

    EDIT: I fully forgot to write why I actually did pick up the Alliance issue x) Alliance of Lordaeron literally ceased to exist after the Scourge was through with it, at least north of Thandol Span (Ironforge was a member of the Alliance of Lordaeron, if I recall correctly). The current one could be called a legal successor, at the very least, but there couldn't be possibly any responsibility drawn to the events between the destruction of the Alliance of Lordaeron and the re-creation of it by the current one. So, while Garithos was indeed a major case of a racist, bigot and straight out genocidal madman, what he did after he came into control of the what was left in Lordaeron can't be really traced to the current Alliance, unless proven that he did work under the orders of any of the current Alliance nations. Also, claiming that he did gives some credibility to the Alliance's claim to Lordaeron (which, quite frankly, is in my opinion currently moot and even the re-appearance of Calia Menethill would only bring it from "moot" to "controversial), since it would state the Alliance had any sort of authority and/or jurisdiction in the region after the fall of Lordaeron. While it was clearly attempted, it looked more like an attempt to keep some sort of the old Alliance of Lordaeron intact (be it in a twisted form, the one doing the "keeping" being Garithos), instead of trying to connect it to the new (or re-made) Alliance, which did not exist at the time.
    Last edited by Serenais; 2013-11-07 at 08:47 AM.

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