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  1. #1

    Why normal/heroics must NOT be flexible.

    I see people saying how bad they want normals/heroics to become apart of the Flexible system. This would be a horrible...horrible idea.

    First, let's look at why it is a terrible idea for only normals to become flexible. Let's say a raid of 14 people, spend weeks (even months) progressing through normal mode. They spend so much time and effort with each other to clear the instance on normal. These days, a group of normal raiders progressing through normals plan to go to heroic progression with each as well. If the system were flexible then a lot of poor souls would be kicked out of the main group once the guild got to heroic progression then next thing you know people would be begging heroics to become flexible as well.

    Now let's take a look at if heroic raiding were flexible as well. The idea of heroic raid progression is to make the fight as simple and as easy as possible to get the kill. You know that "sweet" number in flex which is like 14 or so people but it doesn't really matter because of how easy flex difficulty is atm? Well it would matter in heroic raiding. Heroic progression guilds would only push for that "sweet" spot to ensure the fight stays as simple as possible to better their chances at getting the kill. The "sweet" spot could change depending on the mechanics of the boss and how they scale with flex etc etc. So in the long run, flex would not work with heroic because people progressing will always go for that one specific number that makes the boss fight easier to manage.

    TLDR - Leave normal and heroic raiding alone.

  2. #2
    The logistics of creating a harder "flex" difficulty to accommodate normal/Heroic raiders would be such an immense developmental challenge that I'm pretty much 2,000,000,000% sure this will never happen.


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  3. #3
    No offense but did it need a thread to state something that's so completely obvious? Anyone with two brain cells to rub together, and that includes the dev's, knows this.

  4. #4
    Great. I can't recall anyone at Blizzard talking about making heroic flexible.

  5. #5
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    They've talked about making it flexible but only in saying that it's not planned.

    But personally I think that making heroic flexible would be fine, and especially if some encounters were tuned easier at 25m and some at 10m (but neither grossly different), it would make for a legitimately interesting addition to the generally boring "race."

    To heroic raiders who just want to raid and have intermediate numbers of raid-ready members, it could be quite nice.

  6. #6
    I think that they should leave heroics as they are, but I do not see the problem with making normal mode flexible. I'm currently in a guild that's progressing through heroics (we got more than 10 players) and I would appreciate being able to get everyone into the raid on the first week of a new raid and the last weekly raid day when we are clearing the remaining normals.

    The only real downside I can see to doing this would be if guilds progressing through normal modes felt that they needed to bring certain comps/amount of people for certain fights, but I don't think these guilds (I've been in a few) would take it so seriously and much rather bring their entire rooster. This could potentially lead to higher attendance for such guilds, as few things are as annoying as to be benched when playing a video game relatively casually.

  7. #7
    Can't speak for heroic modes as we don't do them, but . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    First, let's look at why it is a terrible idea for only normals to become flexible. Let's say a raid of 14 people, spend weeks (even months) progressing through normal mode. They spend so much time and effort with each other to clear the instance on normal. These days, a group of normal raiders progressing through normals plan to go to heroic progression with each as well. If the system were flexible then a lot of poor souls would be kicked out of the main group once the guild got to heroic progression then next thing you know people would be begging heroics to become flexible as well.
    How many 10-man raiding teams guilds consist of exactly 10 people? Very few I imagine. Most will need a roster of 12 -15 or so people to allow for people to have nights off and allow raids to still happen. This means that on the nights more than 10 show up people are already getting left out. Adding flexi to normal modes would mean you can more easily cater to an expanded roster, ensure raids happen every night, and not have to worry about who sits out the boss with the tier piece everyone wants. I'm also not so sure that most normal guilds go on to heroics anyway, looking at wowprogress would imply the vast majority of raiding occurs in normals and only a small fraction of the guilds move on to heroics. Those that do intend to go to heroics I'm sure already know that and can plan their rosters accordingly.

  8. #8
    Heroic is tuned way too tight to dynamically change it based on group composition.
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  9. #9
    "Real" 10 man guilds that have 12-15 people on their roster all have the understanding that if you're sitting for a fight, it is for the best interest of the group, and if you're a progression oriented and focused guild, then you shouldn't be focused on yourself or feeling "left out" or loot. Go flex while you wait to be called in if your services are needed. The idea of making flex normal so people can not feel "left out" is insane. If you don't like it, then leave and find another group. I'm sure there's someone equally as skilled that would be willing to take your spot in the progression guild and wait their turn to eventually be a core raider if they can perform well.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Anyone with two brain cells to rub together.
    Obviously not since so many threads are flooded with "make normals and heroics flexible"

  11. #11
    edit: nvm misread the op ^^

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    Obviously not since so many threads are flooded with "make normals and heroics flexible"
    So? Why do you care about the opinions of people who obviously didn't think it through? If you make a new thread to correct everyone who says something stupid on the internet the world will run out of storage space.

  13. #13
    My guild is a semi-serious, two-night a week guild (we usually get heroics down but not finished until the next patch is about to come out) and we hold a 12 player roster with rotations per week/fight when needed.

    We'll surely be bringing the whole roster for normals in WoD if it's not breaking the fight. Heroics will just go back to the current method - I'm not sure why anyone would cry wolf at this, it's pretty much how most 10s that do heroics are anyway.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    First, let's look at why it is a terrible idea for only normals to become flexible. Let's say a raid of 14 people, spend weeks (even months) progressing through normal mode. They spend so much time and effort with each other to clear the instance on normal. These days, a group of normal raiders progressing through normals plan to go to heroic progression with each as well. If the system were flexible then a lot of poor souls would be kicked out of the main group once the guild got to heroic progression then next thing you know people would be begging heroics to become flexible as well.
    'Let's say a raid of 14 people, spend weeks (even months) progressing through flex mode. They spend so much time and effort with each other to clear the instance on flex. These days, a group of flex raiders progressing through flexes plan to go to normal progression with each as well.'

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    So? Why do you care about the opinions of people who obviously didn't think it through? If you make a new thread to correct everyone who says something stupid on the internet the world will run out of storage space.
    Well it looks like Blizzard doesn't have 2 brain cells to rub together since they are planning to do the exact thing I am arguing against. So you're original comment stands flawed.

  16. #16
    To be completely fair, there's absolutely no way you could've predicted the changes Blizzard is making to the raiding system and for you to sit here and say "LOOK I WAS RIGHT THE WHOLE TIME" is really quite childish. This is a pretty massive overhaul on how the game works at a very core level so I'm personally a bit beside myself on how it'll ultimately pan out; but given the hostility 10M and 25M Heroic raiders currently have against each other, it's a fairly unique compromise. It will undoubtedly kill off a lot of guilds, but this game is always changing so it'll be interesting to see where it goes from here.


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  17. #17
    Yes, I saw it coming a mile away. It was very obvious to anyone with a brain that blizzard was looking to make normals and maybe heroics flexible so yeah I kind of was right.
    Last edited by Orcindauh; 2013-11-08 at 10:20 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Orcindauh View Post
    Yes, I saw it coming a mile away. It was very obvious to anyone with a brain that blizzard was looking to make normals and maybe heroics flexible so yeah I kind of was right.
    Yeah no...
    You're just being an asshole about it at this point. Just for your info they aren't making heroics flexible.. not if you define heroics as the maximum difficulty.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    Yeah no...
    You're just being an asshole about it at this point. Just for your info they aren't making heroics flexible.. not if you define heroics as the maximum difficulty.
    Actually yes. asshole? No. My predictions were slightly off but who would have known heroics wouldn't be truly heroic anymore?

  20. #20
    What you're going to see happen in these 25 man raid groups is an immediate cut to a solid 20-man team. I don't think we're going to see 25 man normal kills and then cutting later on. You're going to begin right away with a group of 20 individuals with spots and perhaps scattered extras for the flex raiding system. But I don't think most groups will have to deal with cutting after normals, or heroics or wherever the flexing stops.

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