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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by ace777 View Post
    I rarely use KJC and when I use it I forget about it sometimes =/. but i hope they just baseline it like they did to shamans and maybe give us a POM(mage) or NS(shamans/druids). Instant Chaos bolt FTW every 2 mins, it also gives us lots of utility like instant Combat Rez.
    I imagine you'd sooner see it removed all together than have them make it baseline. Not that I'd mind but their point was they don't like so many classes having so much freedom with movement.

  2. #462
    Mechagnome a C e's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    I imagine you'd sooner see it removed all together than have them make it baseline. Not that I'd mind but their point was they don't like so many classes having so much freedom with movement.
    Hunter, mages, and ele shamans(lots of instants and baseline movement spells).

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazda View Post
    lolwut.

    It gives the most meaningful choice possible... To be the most effective you can possibly be, or the least effective. Doesn't get anymore straightforward than that.

    If you want choices that don't alter gameplay, you're thinking of minor glyphs.
    Then it's not a choice, because regardless of your opinion there is a better build that you can have access to within a few clicks. If this system had the same limitations of the old talent trees, then yes it would be considered somewhat of a choice because you'd take a batch of skills and put up with them. But right now it's just "oh this is boss X let me take talent Y to do more single target/AoE/CC because that's what the encounter requires".

    I don't know about others, but during Cataclysm I had the choice between at least 3 different builds for my spec that changed the way I played and used my abilities in PvP. The differences were much less flagrant and more subtle, yet very noticeable. That felt like customization, because there was no cookie-cutter build.
    Melee vs caster balance in WoD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9F0Ehgx_Q8

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    Then it's not a choice, because regardless of your opinion there is a better build that you can have access to within a few clicks. If this system had the same limitations of the old talent trees, then yes it would be considered somewhat of a choice because you'd take a batch of skills and put up with them. But right now it's just "oh this is boss X let me take talent Y to do more single target/AoE/CC because that's what the encounter requires".

    I don't know about others, but during Cataclysm I had the choice between at least 3 different builds for my spec that changed the way I played and used my abilities in PvP. The differences were much less flagrant and more subtle, yet very noticeable. That felt like customization, because there was no cookie-cutter build.
    I don't PVP. However, in a PVE sense of the word "Choice" it doesn't get any better than it is now. Do I need to have this capability in the fight, or do I need to have this capability in the fight, where each is completely dependent on the talent chosen. If we were locked-in to talents like before, it would be "I have to do this, no questions asked."

    imo.

  5. #465
    I like the choices I have now. For instance, we are working on heroic thok. I can sac a VW for extra HPs or I can pick talents to help dispel. However, I can't have both and neither is a clear option as to which is "better" and can very much change depending on our raid comp that pull. It also forces me to put a value on different variables that do not have clear answers as to what I believe is more important for a particular fight. All sounds like choices to me as quite a few of our talents are not just a X is a 1% increase in dps so anyone who cares picks that.

  6. #466
    I like the way the talent system is now, there's nothing wrong with it, besides the talents itself. They need to design it better. Like we all knew that either from PVP or PVE perspective, shadowflame's 50% slow is pityfull. It should be at least 70% for 7 seconds.

    But the idea behing your choices is very good. Our last tier is the most balanced, and yet I think MF is underpowered, and I change between the two remainings constantly given the encounter or task.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by ace777 View Post
    Hunter, mages, and ele shamans(lots of instants and baseline movement spells).
    Exactly?

    . .

  8. #468

  9. #469
    Jessicka, survival/utility isn't really relevant to dps. How many instant or mobile casts a spec has, how much of the time is spent using them, and what percentage of the damage done they contribute are far more relevant in terms of balancing ranged dps. Each class has different utility and perks but that isn't part of the damage equation. Survival is good but in a well run raid it just means you die last when the raid is wiping.

    Mages have far more instants that generally hit far harder when compared to warlocks....this is a trend that continues with lvl 100 skills where the warlock gets to cast and the mages gets to instant. Even if they balance numbers wise which is more reliable, which works in pvp, etc? Hunters are ranged, instant, mobile, and have a BMF pet...they are as easy to do full dps amidst raid/pvp hazards as it gets. The only time stuff like that matters is when something like blink permits instant movement to a safe place you can cast from. True locks can gateway but that requires some preplanning which isn't always possible/practical in a raid. (eg meteor coming down on a random spot you have to dodge)

    What you should be looking at is how much mobile dps are other ranged permitted and balance along those lines. Either all ranged need to be toned down on the mobile/instant cast thing to give melee a better "niche" or they need to balance ranged well vs each other if we are keeping quite a bit of it for WoD.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Because Shaman have teleports and gateways, and Mages are loaded with self heals.
    At least in PVP I can tell you that mage selfheals are better than ours, coupled with their mobility.

    Mages can cast invocation for a good heal every now and then, with no penalty. Our self heals in PVP besides major cooldowns is nullified, because there are better options for glyphs than siphon life/drain life.

    Also, major CD's with major CD's, mages are ahead. They can double block and double ice barrier, double blink, change position with alter time, etc.
    I believe any ranked pvplayer will agree with me that since 5.2, mages are waaay better than warlock are.

    As for PVE, Werst said it all.

  11. #471
    Mechagnome a C e's Avatar
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    I still believe that KJC should be baseline but since this will make Felflame useless, it will be the best opportunity for it to be added as a Destro only spell ( we need more spells to manage) that hits hard (between incinerate and shadowburn) with an 8 sec cd and a spell effect that would have a chance on hit/crit to make our next ember consuming spell cost no embers

    back on the topic of mobility, I see our hunter jumping around having fun on immersius heroic without any DPS loss and I had to time my chaos bolts in between puddles. I think some classes should have their mobility toned down as werst said.
    Last edited by a C e; 2013-11-21 at 12:07 AM.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Because Shaman have teleports and gateways, and Mages are loaded with self heals.
    Because firetrucks shoot fire.... were you even paying attention to the conversation?


    @Ace: Well blizz has said multiple times they'd like to tone a lot of things down including movement. Making KJC (a talent they said if they could go back in time they never would have added) baseline is kind of counter productive to that idea.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    Jessicka, survival/utility isn't really relevant to dps. How many instant or mobile casts a spec has, how much of the time is spent using them, and what percentage of the damage done they contribute are far more relevant in terms of balancing ranged dps. Each class has different utility and perks but that isn't part of the damage equation. Survival is good but in a well run raid it just means you die last when the raid is wiping.
    Utility in terms of mobility absolutely is a factor. You simply cannot compare abilities side by side, you need to look at the whole package. Affliction has instants: Corruption, Agony, Fel Flame, Life Tap. The issue here is snapshotting broke their use for movement - yet people are defending snapshotting, then complaining about mobility. Lose snapshotting, gain mobility.

    Mages have far more instants that generally hit far harder when compared to warlocks....this is a trend that continues with lvl 100 skills where the warlock gets to cast and the mages gets to instant. Even if they balance numbers wise which is more reliable, which works in pvp, etc? Hunters are ranged, instant, mobile, and have a BMF pet...they are as easy to do full dps amidst raid/pvp hazards as it gets. The only time stuff like that matters is when something like blink permits instant movement to a safe place you can cast from. True locks can gateway but that requires some preplanning which isn't always possible/practical in a raid. (eg meteor coming down on a random spot you have to dodge)
    Mages have far fewer damage sources overall - so they have room to hit harder. As for their mobility, have you looked at their T90 talents? Rune of Power almost fixes them in place for the entire encounter, or Invocation to ensure they need to stand still and channel every minute. They do have limitations put on them.

    As for Hunters, look at their level 100 talents - Snipe. A specific choice between damage and mobility.

    Mobility is survivability. You can't say good survivability only means you die last during a wipe, then say Blink permits you to dodge Meteors, or that pre-planned Gateway or Teleports can help immensely - especially when Gateways were trivialising mechanics this entire expansion.

    It's been said time and time and time again, you need to compare the full package, and a choice between DPS and Mobility is definitely one the developers consider to be absolutely valid because they crop up as choices right there in Mage, Warlock and Hunter talent trees.

  14. #474
    Mechagnome a C e's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Because firetrucks shoot fire.... were you even paying attention to the conversation?


    @Ace: Well blizz has said multiple times they'd like to tone a lot of things down including movement. Making KJC (a talent they said if they could go back in time they never would have added) baseline is kind of counter productive to that idea.
    I actually dont mind kjc removed from the game but there classes still there that passively have a ton of mobilty in raids. I almost never use kjc especially as demo/afflic but I am bringing the baseline idea because blizz should pick a side either toning down mobility or bringing all the other ranges classes to the same level.
    But overall I get it now I think the best move is to tone plmobility to the ground because I beleive that this may fix raid comos too. There are some guilfs that feel that having more melees than ranged a burden but some toning down might address the issue.

  15. #475
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    For pvp I don't see any that very exiting. Cataclysm does not seem to bad, 10000 damage is a lot now. The only other 90 talent that is higher is a monk one.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by ace777 View Post
    I actually dont mind kjc removed from the game but there classes still there that passively have a ton of mobilty in raids. I almost never use kjc especially as demo/afflic but I am bringing the baseline idea because blizz should pick a side either toning down mobility or bringing all the other ranges classes to the same level.
    But overall I get it now I think the best move is to tone plmobility to the ground because I beleive that this may fix raid comos too. There are some guilfs that feel that having more melees than ranged a burden but some toning down might address the issue.
    Sure elemental shaman have more passive mobility than locks, but the truth is that they need it. Shaman have literally nothing to cast on the move that isn't dependent on procs or a CD. We at least have FF.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by ace777 View Post
    pick a side either toning down mobility or bringing all the other ranges classes to the same level.
    ^This is a mentality that I have a huge problem with these days. When wow started out everything was very unique and different feeling a lot of classes had their niches with certain abilities and then they started homogenizing certain things.

    All ranged classes absolutely *do not* have to be equal when it comes to that. If you want to be able to dance around the entire encounter then by all means roll a hunter, otherwise you'll have to do some planting as any other class.

  18. #478
    Blizz had that whole "bring the player not the class" stance. So homogenization crept in. Unique, niche abilities fell away.

    Now comes 20 player only mode. One reason they prefer it is because they can design encounters that utilize those unique niche abilities.

    Blizz is bi-polar.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    Sure elemental shaman have more passive mobility than locks, but the truth is that they need it. Shaman have literally nothing to cast on the move that isn't dependent on procs or a CD. We at least have FF.
    Unless you're Destro.

    *cough*

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    Blizz had that whole "bring the player not the class" stance. So homogenization crept in. Unique, niche abilities fell away.

    Now comes 20 player only mode. One reason they prefer it is because they can design encounters that utilize those unique niche abilities.

    Blizz is bi-polar.
    Because at one point they honestly believed competitive 10 man would be healthy for the game and they had to balance around a mode where they had to assume you wouldn't have 1 of each class. Now in hindsight they realize the mistakes made.

    Everything looks so much different in hindsight.

    @Brusalk: We still have fel flame, the mana cost isn't so high that we cant use it to fill in most average movements... they just made the mana cost high enough to where we couldn't spam it constantly... and that's not to include us still having Conflag, RoF, havoc, Shadowburn.
    Last edited by Baconeggcheese; 2013-11-21 at 04:34 PM.

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