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  1. #1

    Sub simming way more, is this right?

    I've never played sub as pve before, i just came back a month ago from a long break where i was playing combat, and jumped right back into it.

    I am enjoying combat, and getting about what shadowcraft says i should get out of it, but out of curiosity i decided to plug a 502 dagger in my OH and check out what sub would sim as.

    http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/us...albgrLkmQUsOQP

    vs

    http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/us...mqM8OiaDCw6B8=


    Did i do something wrong here? Or is sub really that much better for me than combat right now?

    I figure i'll give it a try anwyays, but i wanted to make sure i didn't do something wrong.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    I don't get it, I imported my rogue there aswell! And it's 25k+ dps! 135k assassination vs 160k subtlety!

    - - - Updated - - -

    I must try speccing into sub, because sub is the love of my life (in rogue spec aspect). Will see if it does more dps than assassination.

  3. #3
    Don't believe what the simulations say. Sub is a competitive spec right now, and I played it for a few weeks just to test, but I haven't found any evidence of it being the "best" spec. Plenty of logs show the other specs still ahead. It is a very fun spec to play, so I do suggest giving it a try on farm bosses.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaker View Post
    Don't believe what the simulations say. Sub is a competitive spec right now, and I played it for a few weeks just to test, but I haven't found any evidence of it being the "best" spec. Plenty of logs show the other specs still ahead. It is a very fun spec to play, so I do suggest giving it a try on farm bosses.
    I'd like to disagree.

    First: don't use shadowcraft to compare damage between specs; it doesn't work well that way. Use simulationcraft.

    Second: the "plenty" of logs is just because people don't play sub. Also Combat can pad meters in a substantial amount of fights due to Blade Flurry. This doesn't mean combat is a bad spec at all, but also doesn't mean that Sub isn't viable.

    All three specs are capable of doing more or less the same damage - you can check the WoL normal Subtlety thread where i post logs; it's only normal, but you see how my damage is no way under the others.

    If your raid has enough aoe/cleave, you can safely go Sub; the point is that single target damage apart, sub doesn't bring additional things like BF or sustained aoe or execute that make the pother specs more appealing. Also is not to ignore that a lot of rogues trying sub are not used to the rotation and just performs bad - the Recounts from high progressed guilds on HM showed how Sub is more than simply a viable alternative.

    EDIT: the "don't believe simulators" thing is absolutely wrong; you need to understand what that numbers say, because you cannot compare them given different environments (like damage between specs in ShC)

  5. #5
    In a perfect scenario (say Saurfang in ICC) sub would come out ahead, but very few boss encounters actually lend themselves to maintaining all of subs mechanics. It's a fun spec to play and definitely competitive, but all but the best sub players aren't going to see a dps increase similar to what the sims show,

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    I'd like to disagree.

    First: don't use shadowcraft to compare damage between specs; it doesn't work well that way. Use simulationcraft.

    Second: the "plenty" of logs is just because people don't play sub. Also Combat can pad meters in a substantial amount of fights due to Blade Flurry. This doesn't mean combat is a bad spec at all, but also doesn't mean that Sub isn't viable.

    All three specs are capable of doing more or less the same damage - you can check the WoL normal Subtlety thread where i post logs; it's only normal, but you see how my damage is no way under the others.

    If your raid has enough aoe/cleave, you can safely go Sub; the point is that single target damage apart, sub doesn't bring additional things like BF or sustained aoe or execute that make the pother specs more appealing. Also is not to ignore that a lot of rogues trying sub are not used to the rotation and just performs bad - the Recounts from high progressed guilds on HM showed how Sub is more than simply a viable alternative.

    EDIT: the "don't believe simulators" thing is absolutely wrong; you need to understand what that numbers say, because you cannot compare them given different environments (like damage between specs in ShC)
    Disagree with what exactly, because I agree with everything that you just said. Honestly, I don't think you understood any of what I wrote. You are making a bunch of assumptions off what I said, when what I said was very vague. I could go through it piece by piece, but I don't have that much time, hence why my post was very short, and vague in the first place.
    Last edited by Speaker; 2013-11-06 at 07:23 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaker View Post
    Disagree with what exactly, because I agree with everything that you just said.
    My bad in reading comprehension, sorry. Was more about the "don't believe simulators" thing - you maybe would like to edit that sentence; i got it in a way like "simulators are wrong" or something on the line.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    My bad in reading comprehension, sorry. Was more about the "don't believe simulators" thing - you maybe would like to edit that sentence; i got it in a way like "simulators are wrong" or something on the line.
    Yeah, what I meant was don't believe that one spec is better than another when comparing them. They are useful when comparing gearing options within the same spec, but you would never want to use one to say one spec is better than the other. Even the creators of shadowcraft admit to that, and I honestly wouldn't even trust simulationcraft either. There are too many variables.
    Last edited by Speaker; 2013-11-06 at 07:29 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaker View Post
    Yeah, what I meant was don't believe that one spec is better than another when comparing them. They are useful when comparing gearing options within the same spec, but you would never want to use one to say one spec is better than the other. Even the creators of shadowcraft admit to that, and I honestly wouldn't even trust simulationcraft either. There are too many variables.
    Well, you can reduce the variables to the minimum confronting the spec in a patchwerk scenario - that will give you the potential of what a spec can dish out. Unfortunately things like human reflexes, your guild and your raid are thing that cannot be simulated

    I confront specs often; it's really useful to see if there's one clearly ahead or behind - which is not the case atm. All three specs are simply viable.

  10. #10
    First thing, shadowcraft is not a simulation. Sub isn't simming more in shadowcraft because nothing is simming in shadowcraft period.

    Second, as was mentioned you can't really use SC to compare across specs. And no matter how much you reduce the variables and assuming a pure patchwerk fight did exist, you should still not try to use it as a reliable tool to compare specs.

  11. #11
    Sub was actually already higher simming in ToT, but the difference was not as huge as now with the T16 piece and the AoC trinket that both boost Sub tremendously.

    However Sub is still not the one and only "go-to" spec as assa was in ToT as it has the worst AoE dmg of all specs, as no real dps increase when cleaving and its also the only spec nowaday that has a positional requirement on one of their main skills (backstab). This makes it suboptimal for some fights, but it is the best spec on pure single target fights like malkorok or thok once you have aquired the above mentioned items.
    Last edited by hYrsch; 2013-11-06 at 10:21 AM.

  12. #12
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    I love Sub always have for PvE but it seems more of a hassle for me during progression. Of course that is just my opinion. I always tend to revert back to Assassination as my go to till I've seen the heroic encounter and killed them a few times.

    I always take the sims with a grain of salt. Yeah it has me sim a tad higher as sub and heck even combat but I always figure an alive dps is better then a dead one worrying about backstabbing lol or dead from KS lol :P
    Last edited by MjH; 2013-11-06 at 06:07 PM.
    I have often regretted having spoken, but never for having not. -De Commynes

  13. #13
    Going through normal SoO I have found that I like to have my two specs as combat and sublety.

    Immersius: Combat due to killing spree on puddles it can be overkill if you are super geared but its still something to do. This fight is dumb.
    Protectors: Combat all the way for this fight, get your tanks to group on Sun and live the dream of awesome dps.
    Norushen: I like Sub here but thats because my group lets me get orb first and then just mindlessly kill Amalgam. Combat could due well to adds being tanked on boss.
    Sha of Pride: I feel like subtlety here will always outshine combat since its a great single target fight with +% damage.
    Galakras: Combat, adds, adds, adds.
    Juggernaut: Single target dps with no reason to leave the boss = Sub again.
    Shamans: If you stack the bosses combat is way ahead of other specs. If you dont, probably go sub, but I would hate sub with as much movement as there is with this fight.
    Nazgrim: Subtlety since my group lets melee sit on boss.
    Malkorok: Subtlety. Single. Target. DPS.
    Spoils: Oh man this fight is so much fun as combat with Marked for death talent. I could do this fight in place of all the other ones and still enjoy dpsing it as combat.
    Thok: Subtlety is so nice here with HAT. You can have some fun if you dont like to attack the boss and get deadly throw and Shuriken Toss, but ST isn't really needed to still range dps with HAT.
    Siegecrafter: This fight for melee is sooooo easy, easier than juggernaut and you never have to leave the boss if you aren't stuck with the conveyor (ranged are better for that job anyways, mostly hunters).
    Paragons: ugh I want mutilate for this fight. Combat cheats and doesnt really help the raid and god damn subtlety is just meh for the fight.
    Garrosh: Cooooooombat! I can see the strong argument for Mutilate here too but that phase 1 is sooo good for cleave dps.

    I can see arguments for any of the sub fights being assassination also Immersius and possibly Shamans if you have terrible combat weapons. Especially Paragons and Garrosh since there are alot of execute phases but I do feel that Norushen, Jugg, Malk, and Siegecrafter Sub will out perform Assassination. If I had 3 specializations available I would use all 3 specs in SoO.

    I feel like being within 5-10% of my sim dps on those single target do nothing else fights is what I must achieve. Lately I feel like 5% is a must since 10% of 300k+ is 30k and thats a huge swing in numbers.
    Last edited by Kazkek; 2013-11-06 at 07:58 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazkek View Post
    Paragons: ugh I want mutilate for this fight. Combat cheats and doesnt really help the raid and god damn subtlety is just meh for the fight.
    I like sub for Paragons, you won't look as good on the meters as other classes because you don't have splash damage, but when it's all said and done, it's a pure single target fight. (Grab dissector buff if you can )

    I envy you that you don't have conveyor belt duty. I did it once because I had the burst for it and now i'm stuck with it

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazkek View Post
    Paragons: ugh I want mutilate for this fight. Combat cheats and doesnt really help the raid and god damn subtlety is just meh for the fight.
    Combat padding meters with useless damage here. Paragons are pure single target fight with a switch every once in a while.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazkek View Post
    Going through normal SoO I have found that I like to have my two specs as combat and sublety.

    Immersius: Combat due to killing spree on puddles it can be overkill if you are super geared but its still something to do. This fight is dumb.
    Protectors: Combat all the way for this fight, get your tanks to group on Sun and live the dream of awesome dps.
    Norushen: I like Sub here but thats because my group lets me get orb first and then just mindlessly kill Amalgam. Combat could due well to adds being tanked on boss.
    Sha of Pride: I feel like subtlety here will always outshine combat since its a great single target fight with +% damage.
    Galakras: Combat, adds, adds, adds.
    Juggernaut: Single target dps with no reason to leave the boss = Sub again.
    Shamans: If you stack the bosses combat is way ahead of other specs. If you dont, probably go sub, but I would hate sub with as much movement as there is with this fight.
    Nazgrim: Subtlety since my group lets melee sit on boss.
    Malkorok: Subtlety. Single. Target. DPS. If youre soaking the voidzones on melee all the time and runing around soaking balls sub can be very clunky in this fight, I prefer going combat on Malk Im moving so much using killing spree to get back to the boss basicaly allows me to pick burst of speed and still have shadowstep.
    Spoils: Oh man this fight is so much fun as combat with Marked for death talent. I could do this fight in place of all the other ones and still enjoy dpsing it as combat.
    Thok: Subtlety is so nice here with HAT. You can have some fun if you dont like to attack the boss and get deadly throw and Shuriken Toss, but ST isn't really needed to still range dps with HAT.
    Siegecrafter: This fight for melee is sooooo easy, easier than juggernaut and you never have to leave the boss if you aren't stuck with the conveyor (ranged are better for that job anyways, mostly hunters).If youre a 10 man guild and youre not doing belts as a rogue youre doing it wrong, specialy on heroic. Both sub and combat are awesome for belts with endless suplies of damage CDs to use on every belt and both those specs can solo the first belt on heroic mode, giving your team a very meaningfull DPS increase on Blackfuse himself shortening the fight quite a bit. A rogue on the belt makes quick work of the guns giving whoever else is DPSing the belt alongside you greater boss damage uptime than with any other partner wich redcues the duration of the fight.
    Paragons: ugh I want mutilate for this fight. Combat cheats and doesnt really help the raid and god damn subtlety is just meh for the fight. Combat is pretty good for Paragons as well and Im not talking about pading metters, either way sub is probably better.
    Garrosh: Cooooooombat! I can see the strong argument for Mutilate here too but that phase 1 is sooo good for cleave dps. Garrosh also favors sub a bit, combat might be awesome for phase 1 but honestly who cares about phase 1, its the easiest part of the fight by a mile. I went sub on garry finished last on DPS but dealt 30 million more damage to Garrosh himself than the second guy on the list, I take doing a craptom of damage to the big baddie over looking good on metters all day long.

    I can see arguments for any of the sub fights being assassination also Immersius and possibly Shamans if you have terrible combat weapons. Especially Paragons and Garrosh since there are alot of execute phases but I do feel that Norushen, Jugg, Malk, and Siegecrafter Sub will out perform Assassination. If I had 3 specializations available I would use all 3 specs in SoO.

    I feel like being within 5-10% of my sim dps on those single target do nothing else fights is what I must achieve. Lately I feel like 5% is a must since 10% of 300k+ is 30k and thats a huge swing in numbers.
    Replys on red
    Last edited by DakonBlackblade; 2013-11-06 at 10:31 PM.

  17. #17
    Guys guys guys. I find it down right amazing none of you are seeing the pic picture here. If you are simming with the tier 16 2-set it is flawed. Shadow craft and SimC still recognize the tier set as 15 energy per stack reduction. Blizz nerf'd the tier set to 6 energy per stack.
    Without telling anyone might I add. So your Sims will show you with much more dps because no one is recognizing the nerf
    [--

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by FeebleParadox View Post
    Guys guys guys. I find it down right amazing none of you are seeing the pic picture here. If you are simming with the tier 16 2-set it is flawed. Shadow craft and SimC still recognize the tier set as 15 energy per stack reduction. Blizz nerf'd the tier set to 6 energy per stack.
    Without telling anyone might I add. So your Sims will show you with much more dps because no one is recognizing the nerf
    [--
    That isn't true at all. For ShadowCraft
    Assassination (6 energy per stack): https://github.com/dazer/ShadowCraft...nit__.py#L1511
    Combat (15 energy per stack): https://github.com/dazer/ShadowCraft...nit__.py#L1928
    Sub (2 energy per stack): https://github.com/dazer/ShadowCraft...nit__.py#L2254

    I can't show you the exact source location for SimCraft but I'm almost certain its handled there to. This isn't exactly an unknown change, we've known about it since well before 5.4 went live.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazkek View Post
    Malkorok: Subtlety. Single. Target. DPS.
    Subtlety is not the highest single target DPS spec and never was this expansion. Can we just quit this bs? There is no single boss on logs that this mystic subtlety tops right now, not even Norushen nor Juggernaut.

    Highly suggest to all subtlety fanboys to check out how much rng is in sub vs. combat top parses on those bosses yet combat is higher everywhere.

    As for shadowcraft and simulations, both happen to be wrong atm. I'm simming ~380k with everything everywhere yet I can't pull that number w/ subtlety cos I'm not good enough to have 70% crit on major abilities with same stats as rank 1 heroes but I can somehow do 40k more with combat. Those numbers are only good for comparing gearsets right now.

    On topic I have no idea how it would look like on ur gear level, but Ill bet on assa until aoc, then combat. Sub is not worth wasting time on until you don't want to.
    Last edited by Aurinth; 2013-11-06 at 11:53 PM.

  20. #20
    Sub ShC is acctualy pritty on point of what you can and should be doing... unless you still have some RPPM trinkets and realy bad luck you should be able to get within 10-5 k of that on patchworks. Combat is a bit more complicated because you can allways either cleave or cant KS as you wish, so number will be off both ways on most fights.

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