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  1. #21
    You can't compare the Assassination DPS number Shadowcraft gives you and the Subtlety DPS number Shadowcraft gives you.
    Jsz
    <The Requiem> US-Horde Mythic
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by DakonBlackblade View Post
    If youre a 10 man guild and youre not doing belts as a rogue youre doing it wrong, specialy on heroic. Both sub and combat are awesome for belts with endless suplies of damage CDs to use on every belt and both those specs can solo the first belt on heroic mode, giving your team a very meaningfull DPS increase on Blackfuse himself shortening the fight quite a bit. A rogue on the belt makes quick work of the guns giving whoever else is DPSing the belt alongside you greater boss damage uptime than with any other partner wich redcues the duration of the fight.
    While I agree that rogues are good at the conveyor belts because of burst with cd's I think ranged classes are better at it since they can start dps before the weapon even comes out of the fire wall, plus we just send in 1 dps to deal with the conveyor belt. This is not speaking for heroic but that was never the case for anyone of the stuff I posted.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurinth View Post
    Subtlety is not the highest single target DPS spec and never was this expansion. Can we just quit this bs? There is no single boss on logs that this mystic subtlety tops right now, not even Norushen nor Juggernaut.

    Highly suggest to all subtlety fanboys to check out how much rng is in sub vs. combat top parses on those bosses yet combat is higher everywhere.
    Yeah, I'm not sure where people are getting this either. Now sure maybe sub is pretty equal assuming the fight has no cleaving and no issues with you being behind full time. That is still not a reason to actually recommend sub to anyone over combat when they'll want combat for other fights anyway. I'm not saying sub doesn't have legitimate uses which are potentially worth swapping for, but patchwerk dps isn't one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by uctar View Post
    Sub ShC is acctualy pritty on point of what you can and should be doing... unless you still have some RPPM trinkets and realy bad luck you should be able to get within 10-5 k of that on patchworks. Combat is a bit more complicated because you can allways either cleave or cant KS as you wish, so number will be off both ways on most fights.
    What do you mean unless you still have some rppm trinkets? You will always have an rppm trinket unless you are using the cleave trinket maybe where your point is moot as if you are getting enough from the cleave trinket to beat Harroms or Detonator then you will want BF.

    Which single target fight (and therefore viable sub fight) can you not KS at will? Norushen (if you are tunneling the boss, its kind of ST) you can KS at will, though you may need to cloak first. Iron Jug you can KS at will. Malkorok you can KS at will on normal. On heroic the adds could be in his slam, but then again cleaving the crap out of adds is going to put combat way ahead anyway. Maybe Thok? Though you can't really go dance on him at will or anything either during kite phase.

  4. #24
    Sub is viable. That's the entire point.

    Viable though doesn't mean it's better at anything. Like in my WoL thread, the reason i keep posting reports is to have tips from people and maybe make more people play it if they want - sure as hell i don't want people believe Sub is the OMG spec for patchwerk, because it simply isn't.

    Sub misses all the utility the other specs have; hence it will never be the favorited spec for any fight. Even if it was a good chunk ahead on single target, people wouldn't respec into it for a couple of fight like IJ or Malkorok which have literally no mechanics and can be played in any spec.

    Also Combat atm is dealing the same if not more single target damage than sub. If you raid comp and progress lets you play Sub, you can play (like i do). If you need that cleave or your performance is hindering the raid, stay away from Sub.


    EDIT: again, being more on topic; don't use ShC to compare specs. Just use it to compare gear in the same spec.

  5. #25
    I would say it also depends on what gear you have , i received a hc wf dagger way before i got any other heroic pieces, and I immediately switched. Kept sub/assa specs and compared them week to week and i saw immediate improvement in dps as sub.

    Got better daggers than rest of gear -> go sub.
    Got decent gear overall -> sub/assa/combat whatever u feel like playing.

    Also repeat after me "Shc is not a sim , its a dps modeler" . To know more about difference between sim and model, read this awesome blog post by fierydemise.
    http://roguechat.wordpress.com/2013/...ns-and-models/
    Playing subtlety is like ballroom dancing, just that there is an ugly monster between you and your partner (tank).
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...traws/advanced

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    That isn't true at all. For ShadowCraft
    Assassination (6 energy per stack): https://github.com/dazer/ShadowCraft...nit__.py#L1511
    Combat (15 energy per stack): https://github.com/dazer/ShadowCraft...nit__.py#L1928
    Sub (2 energy per stack): https://github.com/dazer/ShadowCraft...nit__.py#L2254

    I can't show you the exact source location for SimCraft but I'm almost certain its handled there to. This isn't exactly an unknown change, we've known about it since well before 5.4 went live.
    SimC should be correct, too. During PTR I remember submitting an issue to fix a bug with assassination and 2-set.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazkek View Post
    While I agree that rogues are good at the conveyor belts because of burst with cd's I think ranged classes are better at it since they can start dps before the weapon even comes out of the fire wall, plus we just send in 1 dps to deal with the conveyor belt. This is not speaking for heroic but that was never the case for anyone of the stuff I posted.
    Well on normal it doesnt realy make much of a diference, but on heroic weapons have 10 mil HP and you gona want to do the fight on the most eficient way possible cause its a damm hard fight, so you need to have good DPS to get the belt done in time. Ranged arent realy optmal because the belt is constantly moving so to avoid getting killed on the laser walls (wich keep changing places on heroic) you need to walk fowards or to the sides wich screws your casting. The best class for belts hands down are hunters because theyre rangeds that can move and not loose any DPS, second best are combat/sub rogues cause of beeing melee therefore not having to cast and having CDs avaliable on every belt.
    Last edited by DakonBlackblade; 2013-11-08 at 09:31 AM.

  8. #28
    All 3 specs are viable, period. I netted a US #1 Shamans last night as Assassination, that was equivalent to a top 5 subtlety. Combat parses that tank them together will obviously yield higher DPS than Asn or Sub, but that's a quirk of the fight, and plays to Combat's strength. However not all guilds do it that way, as we're one of the guilds that uses 3 tanks.

    Play what you want, and what you're most comfortable with. Period. I'd say "end of discussion" but there shouldn't even be a discussion to begin with. It's been talked about to death. Use the search function!

  9. #29
    The Patient
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    With AoC and good weapons, Sub will beat mutilate. IN A SIM


    However, real raid situations call for AoE, cleaving.


    The fights where sub is viable: Immerseus, Iron Juggernaut, Dark Shamans (but combat is better), Nazgrim (on heroic combat can be better depending on your strat, normal mode the adds die too fast to evisc as combat) , Thok, Siegecrafter. Paragons is apparantly great for sub too but my experiences with sub on that fight have always been bad. Garrosh you want combat because padflurry is amazing.


    That's my take on it, at least.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspectsftw View Post
    With AoC and good weapons, Sub will beat mutilate. IN A SIM


    However, real raid situations call for AoE, cleaving.


    The fights where sub is viable: Immerseus, Iron Juggernaut, Dark Shamans (but combat is better), Nazgrim (on heroic combat can be better depending on your strat, normal mode the adds die too fast to evisc as combat) , Thok, Siegecrafter. Paragons is apparantly great for sub too but my experiences with sub on that fight have always been bad. Garrosh you want combat because padflurry is amazing.


    That's my take on it, at least.
    Flurry on Garrosh is a bit wasted if you use ironstars to kill the adds. Depends on raid setup and strat. If you aren't using ironstars or your group has poor AOE, then BF is amazing. If its the other way around, sub will end up doing far more damage to Garrosh himself and help with the final push.

  11. #31
    And here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Daltin View Post
    I netted a US #1 Shamans last night as Assassination, that was equivalent to a top 5 subtlety. Combat parses that tank them together will obviously yield higher DPS than Asn or Sub, but that's a quirk of the fight, and plays to Combat's strength.
    Combat beats ur parse even w/o tanking them together. You can click those numbers. Do it please.

    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    sub will end up doing far more damage to Garrosh himself and help with the final push.
    And this is what u get when pros write guides on EJ.

    No, subtlety will not do more dmg to boss himself as its not highest single target dps spec.

    No, it doesnt mean that theres heavy BF usage when combat rogue beats u.

    sub is fucking viable. it does comparable single target to both specs and thats that. nothing more. Actually its fucking useless in every other aspect.

  12. #32
    Sub sims too high for sure. However, contrary to what other people say, Sub IS higher single target damage than Assassination, only closer than simcraft makes out.

    However:

    1) You need the right gear to do more damage than Assassin - a good dagger and AOC.

    2) You need to know how to play Sub in PVE. Assassin is braindead easy to play. Sub is harder to play, and you spend a lot more time watching buffs and debuffs.

    3) Doing more damage is fight specific. To win as Sub you need to know every fight and when to use cds and when not to. Sub is also heavily punished by movement and target switching and so on some fights it suffers.

    And so it is a very general statement to say Sub does not do more damage. It does on some fights, and it doesn't on others.

    Sub also has very good aoe. CT does more damage. 30% more agi and 35% from SV means poisons hit hard. You have much higher energy regen and do more foks and more finishers.

  13. #33
    Even if combat does more damage then sub i would not play it because of killmespree. While using this piece of crap cd you cant use healthstones or cloak if something bad happens and it can easily kill you on nazgrim shamans. On malkorok its shitty if you are assigned to soaking. Thok: you cant use it at all and there arent many fights where bf cleave is usefull

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinthoras View Post
    Even if combat does more damage then sub i would not play it because of killmespree. While using this piece of crap cd you cant use healthstones or cloak if something bad happens and it can easily kill you on nazgrim shamans. On malkorok its shitty if you are assigned to soaking. Thok: you cant use it at all and there arent many fights where bf cleave is usefull
    That's why you watch timers and don't align it with dangerous fight mechanics or keep a cancelaura Killing Spree macro handy.
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

    i5-4670k @ 4.5 / Thermalright Silver Arrow Extreme / Gigabyte Z87X-D3H / 8GB DDR3-1600 RAM / Gigabyte GTX 760

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    That's why you watch timers and don't align it with dangerous fight mechanics or keep a cancelaura Killing Spree macro handy.
    But then your damage suffers if you need to skip deep insight killing spree to survive the mechanic, while as sub you can controll your cd much easier

  16. #36
    ur "kill me spree" is hardly worse than "u must be behind ur target". both are essentially annoying and l2p issues

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurinth View Post
    ur "kill me spree" is hardly worse than "u must be behind ur target". both are essentially annoying and l2p issues
    It is annoying, thats true. Still you have the controll over your Character and normally you are behind your target ANYWAY. So it isnt as annoying as Killing Spree. Maybe i just dont like this spell, but many of my gildies feel the same with combat. And i played all 3 Speccs and i find Sub the most enjoying and the most challenging, while combat felt like a dumb spamm fest where your "finisher" dealt no damage at all.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinthoras View Post
    But then your damage suffers if you need to skip deep insight killing spree to survive the mechanic, while as sub you can controll your cd much easier
    Aligning killing spree with deep insight instead of using it on CD has never been worth it. Start of cataclysm it was actually due to an error in the formulation process of ShadowCraft that it showed the opposite.
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

    i5-4670k @ 4.5 / Thermalright Silver Arrow Extreme / Gigabyte Z87X-D3H / 8GB DDR3-1600 RAM / Gigabyte GTX 760

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Aligning killing spree with deep insight instead of using it on CD has never been worth it. Start of cataclysm it was actually due to an error in the formulation process of ShadowCraft that it showed the opposite.
    Well then you lose dps anyway if you need to delay it due to dangerous boss mechanics

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinthoras View Post
    Well then you lose dps anyway if you need to delay it due to dangerous boss mechanics
    You mean the same way you do when you're forced to face the boss as sub?
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

    i5-4670k @ 4.5 / Thermalright Silver Arrow Extreme / Gigabyte Z87X-D3H / 8GB DDR3-1600 RAM / Gigabyte GTX 760

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