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  1. #141
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrantWave View Post
    And the flirting with Lor'themar
    well Sylvanas and Lor'themar have been old colleagues for many years.
    .


    When someone asks you if you're a god, YOU SAY 'YES'!

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    That doesn't change the fact that he was a Horde character for 2 and a half expansions and then suddenly becomes an enemy. This is hugely different than the Lich King, who hasn't been anything but the Scourge for years and years. I also notice people who ignore the story and claim the Lich King somehow is an Alliance hero just totally forget that Ner'zhul was an Orc. Two can play the fallacious argument game.
    Except Arthas is the dominant/only personality in the LK when we face him and he was a hero for the current Alliance. We also got Uther, Terenas, and Bolvar showcased near/at the climax.

    Ner'zhul was never part of the current Horde. And was quickly brushed aside and pmuch a prisoner in the Old Horde.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-11-06 at 09:33 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Protar View Post
    Would you have loved to help the Alliance free Stormwind from a crazy Jaina and then, despite having the Alliance in the palm of your hand, walk away without demanding so much as a bit of returned territory, instead making threats that you know can never be fulfilled in game? Because that's what Alliance got in SoO.
    Yes (though I'm impartial), I would've been fine with raiding Dalaran, taking out Jaina, then telling Varian to get control of his representatives. I'm not bloodthirsty on either faction. Both sides have done atrocities (outside Garrosh who was acting alone in his insanity [other leaders not consulted/agreeable on the paths he took]).

    Some say they lost big time in Cata (Alliance), but really, the zone distribution was equalized. Azshara was an obvious progression; the zone was barely touched by anyone and bordered on a main capital city. It would be like having Westfall be Horde territory.

    Illidan is considered Alliance because is is a Night Elf, just like Kael'Thas is related to Horde because he is a Blood Elf; but neither should be considered part of those factions at the time we kill them because they have both been excommunicated from their own kind. Similar can be said for Arthas. The case can also be made for Thrall/Go'el and Garrosh. Thrall stepped down, became neutral, he just happened to be an Orc. Garrosh went power mad and can be compared to Kael'Thas and Illidan. I suppose you can compare Thrall to Fordring in a similar way but as a protagonist role instead.

    If there was a slant to the xpacs, I'd go:

    BC: neutral
    Wrath: Alliance
    Cata: Horde
    Mists: neutral

    I'm not biased though. I have no bets on either side. I've played both for some time over the years and have seen slight advantages here and there to each side ... but if you are looking for favoritism, if you're outlook is already skewed, you will see what supports your already made decision ... through confirmation bias. Most of us suffer from this at times, we're human. When I was upset at the game for my own reasons, I could find plenty to nit-pick about; but now that I stepped away and don't have an agenda, not only do I see things that bug me, but I see plenty of good things as well.


    What can and can't be fulfilled in game though, is up to how much effort the devs want to put into it. They could have the Alliance nearly wipe out the Horde, and make the changes in game ... but they decided, mostly because of the raiding vocal outcry, to not put effort into the WORLD of warcraft, but instead focus on raids. They could make it where the Horde were few in number and took a heavy beating. They could make it where in game, they have to tread carefully and not really able to set up major camps or show any real force; with a later xpac having something to even the odds; whether through a way to gain massive reinforcements or through the reduction of Alliance forces, or a mix of both to even the score. From opening a portal to a new land that sees the Horde as being oppressed from their small numbers versus the might of its adversary, to a group that doesn't like the ideals of how the Alliance is set up and wishes to knock them off their pedestal.

    Point is, it can be done; but it takes resources. People want it all, and they can't give it; maybe if they can get back in to 10s of millions of subs they could hire enough to have full teams always working on the world, while still pumping out raids and still having a quick enough xpac cycle. But right now, they can't push out 15 boss raids every 6 months, work on an xpac to be released every 12-18 months, and keep the world dynamic and alive.

    I personally would love a more alive world. Everything from dark nights and great lighting effects, to having things evolve over time as they would normally, like having Exodar and SMC get fixed. Like they did with Vale, but everywhere. I'd like them to have a team that worked on each zone, extremely focused, one by one, updating textures and models. Let the game evolve to today's standards (while keeping the art style). Some of them just need higher res textures and a bit more detail, not a complete rework, but no matter how big of a task, you can never finish what you never start.

    This all ties in, remember, to keeping the world reflecting what happens in game and allowing things to change to show what happens in a more real-time way. It would allow for actual victories to be shown. Say have Alliance take over a zone or recapture a keep they lost a longtime ago. It would allow for defenses to be rebuilt, for plagues to be cleansed. It would be great to see Gilneas and Gnomeregan become true capital cities; and while they are at it, give make the gobin port a place for goblins to gather, a mini-city outside Org. Allow the trolls to develop their area into a proper city as well. Allow the Alliance to have current Dalaran hovering above destroyed Theramore.


    But you have to be realistic in what can happen as well. You can't eliminate the Horde altogether; that rarely happens in reality either. Germany still exists, they were just heavily sanctioned by the Allies. This is similar to what the Alliance is doing to the Horde; only so far we don't see the Alliance spending tons of resources to rebuild the Horde as is the reality of what the victor does after war in the real world.


    I think they go far too conservative, and they worry too much about people with shitty PCs. The only reason I've ever had, and ever will support the idea of WoW 2.0 is for the sake of them starting with a clean, new engine; eliminating ability bloat, freshening up the entire look of the world (while staying true to the style), fixing any plot holes, etc. Hell, they could just call it a reboot and start over at Vanilla in an alternate timeline/reality/universe. Add in a bunch of other stuff; but make all the content they wish they would've the first time around but didn't. It'd be a hard sell, but I think some incentives for moving over would work ...


    I think no matter what happens; someone is going to complain about the next xpac being 'Horde-centric' if there is any Horde in it at all. Some are obsessed over it and cannot see anything but their seething hate and rage, and anything that supports it. I wouldn't mind if the next one was nearly neutral with slight Alliance bias, that would be good for the game imo; but it'd be bad if it was heavy Alli focused, in the same way it'd be bad if it was heavy Horde. In reality, it should be heavy non-faction based, with the slight bias towards Alliance in the AvH lore for best results I think.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Except Arthas is the dominant/only personality in the LK when we face him and he was a hero for the current Alliance. We also got Uther, Terenas, and Bolvar showcased near/at the climax.

    Ner'zhul was never part of the current Horde. And was quickly brushed aside and pmuch a prisoner in the Old Horde.
    And Arthas and Terenas were never part of the current Alliance. Bolvar was, yes. Deathbringer Saurfang was a member of the New Horde and also appeared in Icecrown. There weren't any other Alliance heroes in ICC and we lost Bolvar permanently to neutrality, since he will either remain pure neutral and simply remain atop the Throne holding back the Scourge or he'll become an enemy later down the line. At least you got closure for Saurfang, Bolvar just sat there doing a sweet fuck all and that's all we'll ever really see.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Thassarian View Post
    And Arthas and Terenas were never part of the current Alliance. Bolvar was, yes.
    It's the same Alliance, as emphasized by Genn going to the Darnassus summit for "Re-admission."

    “It’s about the summit, Archdruid.”
    “Of course. Gilneas is one of the most prominent reasons I sought to bring it to fruition. Your people’s admission to the Alliance is—”
    Re-admission, you mean,” the king growled with much bitterness.

    --Wolfheart, p. 140

    Tyrande, touching her husband’s hand, took command of events again. “You have witnessed the might of Gilneas and heard its request to enter back into the Alliance!”
    --Wolfheart, p.332

    Varian says: “As I’ve already said to many, I find nothing worthy, nothing honorable, in this pack of hounds . . . and so I will never vote aye to their admission back into the fold!”
    --Wolfheart, p. 337
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-11-06 at 10:04 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  6. #146
    Warchief
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    ------------This thread, flame bait. Either that, or you are captain one-side OP.
    "There are other sites on the internet designed for people to make friends or relationships. This isn't one" Darsithis Super Moderator
    Proof that the mmochamp community can be a bitter and lonely place. What a shame.

  7. #147
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thassarian View Post
    And Arthas and Terenas were never part of the current Alliance. Bolvar was, yes. Deathbringer Saurfang was a member of the New Horde and also appeared in Icecrown. There weren't any other Alliance heroes in ICC and we lost Bolvar permanently to neutrality, since he will either remain pure neutral and simply remain atop the Throne holding back the Scourge or he'll become an enemy later down the line. At least you got closure for Saurfang, Bolvar just sat there doing a sweet fuck all and that's all we'll ever really see.
    Don't even bother with him.
    Men, you've trained for this. You're among the elite. You are Skyfire men! This is the ship that took down Deathwing. You think some raggedy little Horde outpost stands a chance against the pride of the Alliance fleet? NO! Those green dirtbags down there plagued your homes in Southshore, laid siege to your children in Redridge, and massacred every man, woman and child in Theramore. It. Is. PAYBACK TIME!
    Sky Admiral Rogers for High Queen. Remember Theramore!

  8. #148
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Don't even bother with him.
    heaven forbid anyone should have the citational discipline Aquamonkey has always demonstrated on this forum. Even if we don't agree with him on certain issues, he is a master of backing up what he says with actual quotes and sources.
    .


    When someone asks you if you're a god, YOU SAY 'YES'!

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    It's the same Alliance, as emphasized by Genn going to the Darnassus summit for "Re-admission."

    “It’s about the summit, Archdruid.”
    “Of course. Gilneas is one of the most prominent reasons I sought to bring it to fruition. Your people’s admission to the Alliance is—”
    Re-admission, you mean,” the king growled with much bitterness.

    --Wolfheart, p. 140

    Tyrande, touching her husband’s hand, took command of events again. “You have witnessed the might of Gilneas and heard its request to enter back into the Alliance!”
    --Wolfheart, p.332

    Varian says: “As I’ve already said to many, I find nothing worthy, nothing honorable, in this pack of hounds . . . and so I will never vote aye to their admission back into the fold!”
    --Wolfheart, p. 337
    Fair enough, but I've never yet heard the Alliance being called "The Alliance of Lordareon", which is the Alliance that Terenas and Uther were a part of, in game. Not to mention the driving faction behind the Old Alliance is now Horde, as they're the Forsaken. In fact I've actually seen people argue the fact that we inexplicably are not the Alliance of Lordareon, but if it's canon fair enough. I'm always happy to be proved wrong, but I'd take what is written there with a pinch of salt, especially as it's Knaak who wrote it.
    Last edited by Matt0193; 2013-11-07 at 12:27 AM.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  10. #150
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    I'm really excited for Friday, I'm gonna buy extra popcorn just to watch the forum. I'm almost as excited for the reactions as I am for the reveal ^^

  11. #151
    Let's flip things around and see if the Horde like it, shall we?

    You've spent one expansion losing territory to the Alliance. Some zones are lost entirely, and in contested zones your quest chains usually end in a loss. With the new expansions you run into some panda-people who berate you for fighting just as one of your cities is turned into a smoking crater by a power-mad Varian Wrynn. Later on you're told to sneak around Elwynn and rescue an Alliance NPC. You're captured by the Alliance, and told to go gather resources for them. You then assist the Alliance with retaking Stormwind and after deposing Wrynn, make an empty threat and leave the city. The Alliance keeps all the territory it took under Wrynn's rule.

    You think that sounds fun?

  12. #152
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    Let's flip things around and see if the Horde like it, shall we?

    You've spent one expansion losing territory to the Alliance. Some zones are lost entirely, and in contested zones your quest chains usually end in a loss. With the new expansions you run into some panda-people who berate you for fighting just as one of your cities is turned into a smoking crater by a power-mad Varian Wrynn. Later on you're told to sneak around Elwynn and rescue an Alliance NPC. You're captured by the Alliance, and told to go gather resources for them. You then assist the Alliance with retaking Stormwind and after deposing Wrynn, make an empty threat and leave the city. The Alliance keeps all the territory it took under Wrynn's rule.

    You think that sounds fun?
    Totally, when I know I'm playing a game and enjoying it!

  13. #153
    I hope that the next expansion is 100% alliance focused just so I can see if horde players can manage to cry and whine as much as alliance players.

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