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  1. #741
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Yes, hence why I said "While it is untrue that the devs don't read this forum at all, it is unlikely that they take it particularly seriously".
    They do definitely read MMO Champion and take it into account, but they're definitely not going to take that and remove glyphs for no reason, especially as nobody was even asking for it to be taken away. They have their own internal statistics for how many people use each glyph...

    If you'd not fought your corner and deluded yourself into thinking people were saying "delete this trash" then this wouldn't even have been a notable discussion in the first place, it would have been one guy saying "I like momentum" and another one saying "Momentum was ok at first but now I don't use it".
    So it's okay for you and others to present a case against it, but when I present a case for it-- which as I just went and re-read my posts was not unreasonable or pouting on a corner, or delusional in any way-- you take issue.

    Be a forum jackal if you wish, but you're not going to come out of this looking reasonable. I didn't keep the issue going, others kept it going as well. Which is funny because I believe that's the purpose of discussion, no?

  2. #742
    I'm not objecting to you wanting to speak your side, I was objecting to you throwing your hands up and saying "I need to do this because otherwise Blizzard will read this forum and delete the glyph from the game" which is clearly untrue.
    You're totally allowed to tell us why you think the glyph is great (though let's be honest, the 6.0 mage information topic is probably not the place to do that and we are all guilty of this).

    The entire contents of the post I replied to was "I don't trust the community. It's an atmosphere where you feel if you don't argue we'll just end up being diablo wizards that drop demonic gateways and healthstones and have a healing spec. It's maddening."
    None of that was arguing your case, it was purely ridiculous hyperbole, that is what I was telling you I did not want to see. That was the "pouting". Most of your other posts were fine, it is just here where you present it as some obligation to always make your voice as loud as possible in case Blizzard is watching that I think is just ridiculous and my point later was merely "it is funny that you think this because if you were really scared of Blizzard noticing, you are reacting in entirely the wrong way by being loud".
    I apologise if I misled you in some way!

    Discuss things because that is what the forum is for, not because the spectre of Ghostcrawler is hovering over your shoulder and you are trying to justify yourself to him at all times.
    Last edited by Imnick; 2013-12-03 at 02:06 PM.

  3. #743
    *MOD WARNING* Keep discussion focused on things announced for 6.0 from Blizzcon or leaked since then. This topic isn't for bitching and/or moaning about the current state of the game. I reserve the right to lock things as my swizzly hands desire. *MOD WARNING*

  4. #744
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    That's not specifically why, Imnick.

    I've seen opinions snowball, it happens in forums. So rather than me try to convince you all to Glyph Momentum, I am offering it as an option out there that it can be a viable glyph for some. I wish this ended back when we all sort of agreed some like it while others don't - but it kept being quoted and escalated into nonsense.

    I think if you pay attention to how I've posted since I became active in this community, I am an anti-groupthink. I don't like when too many people coalesce around one idea and piggy back off each other, snowballing an opinion or perception while a voiceless population doesn't speak. Quite often I clear a way through the crowd and act as a contrarian just because I like to stop, check ourselves, and march forward with an idea if we're sure we thought about it from all angles. It's easy to push forward in wrong directions under the guise of a good intention.

    So yeah I gave a bit too much lip with the diablo wizards comment. That's a manifestation and venting of my frustration with that other thread about disintegration beam and some really radical requests/suggestions that would most certainly lead me to quit (i.e. healing spec / warlock utility) any form of raiding.

    So apologies to mods & anyone else involved. I'll take it to PMs if there's more needed discussion on any specific matter off the topic of this thread.

  5. #745
    Just for the record, I like the fact that the momentum glyph is in the game. It gives players a real choice in how they want to customize their character.

    And I don't see anyone here arguing that we should remove it. I think the only way they would consider removing it is if someone found a way to abuse it, which seems quite unlikely outside of just how blink could be normally used.

    So to keep this on topic, my prediction for 6.0 and beyond is that glyph of momentum will still stay in the game, I won't use it, akraen will, and blizzard's storytelling will continue to go down the path of the star wars prequels.

  6. #746
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    On another note, I really hope our bomb damage is nerfed and our main spells are boosted to compensate. If I wanted to play a multi-dot class I would have switched to my Warlock. Still think the Bomb tier needs to go altogether honestly, just tie each bomb to its appropriate spec.

  7. #747
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    On another note, I really hope our bomb damage is nerfed and our main spells are boosted to compensate. If I wanted to play a multi-dot class I would have switched to my Warlock. Still think the Bomb tier needs to go altogether honestly, just tie each bomb to its appropriate spec.
    And I completely disagree, nether tempest is my favorite spell in the game. The bomb tier gave us more diversity to be able to excel at more encounter designs, frost and arcane greatly benefited from being given a DoT effect, as before we had them they were purely single target nuke specs that really couldn't AoE (with the exception of massive amounts of adds stacked up all in one place).

    Frost bomb may need some tweaking, especially if they keep up with this trinket design of proccing off DoT effects only, but for the most part I think the bombs are in a good place heading into WoD.

    As far as the whole "If I wanted to play a DoT class I'd have rolled x" that argument just can't work anymore, as the game changes, as the encounters change, the classes have to change as well to fit the current design.

  8. #748
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I'd rather see frostbomb explode into icicles that shoot all targets within 20 or 30yds.

    Too much begging tanks to have things close to each other these days. It's really annoying and raid leaders complain.

  9. #749
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    And I completely disagree, nether tempest is my favorite spell in the game. The bomb tier gave us more diversity to be able to excel at more encounter designs, frost and arcane greatly benefited from being given a DoT effect, as before we had them they were purely single target nuke specs that really couldn't AoE (with the exception of massive amounts of adds stacked up all in one place).

    Frost bomb may need some tweaking, especially if they keep up with this trinket design of proccing off DoT effects only, but for the most part I think the bombs are in a good place heading into WoD.

    As far as the whole "If I wanted to play a DoT class I'd have rolled x" that argument just can't work anymore, as the game changes, as the encounters change, the classes have to change as well to fit the current design.
    The only reason why things are like this is because Blizz gave us a bandaid fix by boosting our bomb damage by 40%, forcing us into this design, because our damage was too low. Before that, multi-dotting wasn't near as huge except for shared health pools. And it doesn't create "more diversity to excel" when the damage change is around ~1%-3% max. Yeah min maxers can "excel" with that extra 2k dps, but it really doesn't matter in the slightest.

    Nether Tempest is a great bomb, but it isn't fun (and yes this is subjective) when playing anything other than Arcane and sitting there dotting everything up and ignoring your base rotation in situations where you are losing DPS if you don't multi-dot. NT has its best Synergy with Arcane, Frost Bomb has its best Synergy with Frost (despite being a clunky spell, arguably), and Living Bomb needs to be a little patched up for Fire, and be able to be spread more around for Fire AoE to not suck horribly.

  10. #750
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I don't know about that. Frost bomb is borderline unusable by frost mages. It requires impossible timing or precognition based of its fluctuating cooldown. It also takes a relatively mobile spec and makes it worse than arcane.

    The synergy comes from brain freeze procs, but that's it. Something -must- change with it or it'll continue to be PvP only.

    I think everyone would first suggest castable while moving, and while that is a bad thing-- it's the fluctuating cooldown that is the realm problem. It's very hard to have something that takes a second to cast that is your top priority come off cooldown anywhere between 2.3 and 6.6 seconds. You can't plan for it, you can't react, you can't cancel cast, all you can do is attempt to be psychic.

    See my recent posts in my guide for more info on that, but yeah that's something I would like to see them look at for 6.0. Nothing radical, just make it more usable. Maybe haste can give it another benefit rather than a dynamic cooldown. Maybe the more haste you get, the quicker it ticks, and each time it explodes it places another bomb on a nearby target (or itself), until 6 sec ends.

    Then it's not a DoT, but kind of acts like one, and the people who don't enjoy multidot don't have to deal with it.

  11. #751
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I don't know about that. Frost bomb is borderline unusable by frost mages. It requires impossible timing or precognition based of its fluctuating cooldown. It also takes a relatively mobile spec and makes it worse than arcane.

    The synergy comes from brain freeze procs, but that's it. Something -must- change with it or it'll continue to be PvP only.

    I think everyone would first suggest castable while moving, and while that is a bad thing-- it's the fluctuating cooldown that is the realm problem. It's very hard to have something that takes a second to cast that is your top priority come off cooldown anywhere between 2.3 and 6.6 seconds. You can't plan for it, you can't react, you can't cancel cast, all you can do is attempt to be psychic.

    See my recent posts in my guide for more info on that, but yeah that's something I would like to see them look at for 6.0. Nothing radical, just make it more usable. Maybe haste can give it another benefit rather than a dynamic cooldown. Maybe the more haste you get, the quicker it ticks, and each time it explodes it places another bomb on a nearby target (or itself), until 6 sec ends.

    Then it's not a DoT, but kind of acts like one, and the people who don't enjoy multidot don't have to deal with it.
    Oh I just meant synergy with BF procs which I think works well, as I said too that the spell is clunky and I would like to see it changed a bit to make it flow better with the spec.

  12. #752
    Bloodsail Admiral Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    And I completely disagree, nether tempest is my favorite spell in the game. The bomb tier gave us more diversity to be able to excel at more encounter designs, frost and arcane greatly benefited from being given a DoT effect, as before we had them they were purely single target nuke specs that really couldn't AoE (with the exception of massive amounts of adds stacked up all in one place).

    Frost bomb may need some tweaking, especially if they keep up with this trinket design of proccing off DoT effects only, but for the most part I think the bombs are in a good place heading into WoD.

    As far as the whole "If I wanted to play a DoT class I'd have rolled x" that argument just can't work anymore, as the game changes, as the encounters change, the classes have to change as well to fit the current design.
    I don't know if I agree with this. Having Nether Tempest be your biggest source of damage by a massive margin is pretty stupid. I don't have a huge problem with it being the top damage source (EDIT: I actually do. Fuck that. Why am I powering up my blasts/missiles/Barrages just to get stomped by a single DoT?), but often it's top by tens of millions, which is just insane.
    Last edited by Frost1129; 2013-12-04 at 08:10 PM.

  13. #753
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    I don't know if I agree with this. Having Nether Tempest be your biggest source of damage by a massive margin is pretty stupid. I don't have a huge problem with it being the top damage source (EDIT: I actually do. Fuck that. Why am I powering up my blasts/missiles/Barrages just to get stomped by a single DoT?), but often it's top by tens of millions, which is just insane.
    Mmmhmm, was Arcane for our H Fallen Protectors progression earlier and NT was around 50% of my damage done. It is just ridiculous.

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    And I completely disagree, nether tempest is my favorite spell in the game. The bomb tier gave us more diversity to be able to excel at more encounter designs, frost and arcane greatly benefited from being given a DoT effect, as before we had them they were purely single target nuke specs that really couldn't AoE (with the exception of massive amounts of adds stacked up all in one place).

    Frost bomb may need some tweaking, especially if they keep up with this trinket design of proccing off DoT effects only, but for the most part I think the bombs are in a good place heading into WoD.

    As far as the whole "If I wanted to play a DoT class I'd have rolled x" that argument just can't work anymore, as the game changes, as the encounters change, the classes have to change as well to fit the current design.

    There are other ways to apply the NT debuff than just a DoT keybind though. Ignite and Pyro DoT are two examples. I can imagine AM debuffing the target with the NT DoT, and allowing that debuff to stack - so if there aren't multiple targets for NT cleave you still get more damage out. It'd still work with current encounter design while allowing Arcane to be more nuke focused - you would not maintain the NT debuff actively - you'd just use you AM procs.

  15. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by Fim View Post
    There are other ways to apply the NT debuff than just a DoT keybind though. Ignite and Pyro DoT are two examples. I can imagine AM debuffing the target with the NT DoT, and allowing that debuff to stack - so if there aren't multiple targets for NT cleave you still get more damage out. It'd still work with current encounter design while allowing Arcane to be more nuke focused - you would not maintain the NT debuff actively - you'd just use you AM procs.
    Yup... remember, arcane blast used to apply slow which would activate Torment the Weak.

    Torment the Weak was awesome. I want it back. Would gladly take it back in exchange for removing bombs or even for the level 90 talents.

  16. #756
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Could be a new potential talent, so have Bombs defaulted to their own spec, new talent like:

    Whenever you use Arcane Barrage, all targets it hits has Nether Tempest Applied to them. Inferno Blast now spreads Living Bomb up to 4 targets. Frost Bomb now explodes doing extra damage to all targets depending on the amount of icicles you have.

    Only thing is it favors cleave instead of multi-dotting everything, whether or not that is an issue.

  17. #757
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I'd be a huge fan of having the bombs be applied via other spells.

    Frost bomb could be applied every 5th icicle hit automatically. Oh man that'd rock so hard.

  18. #758
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I'd be a huge fan of having the bombs be applied via other spells.

    Frost bomb could be applied every 5th icicle hit automatically. Oh man that'd rock so hard.
    Anything that gives icicles more use instead of passive damage I am open for. It is a good candidate for almost a secondary resource, but in its current state it is just meh.

  19. #759
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Or, or, or, ORRRRRRRR

    Each icicle that hits applies the frost bomb debuff and each subsequent icicle hit increases the duration and damage of your frost bomb. So the debuff extends without doing any damage.

    Then FoF (not an automatic icicle) detonates the bomb!

    Think about it! You could make some cool snap decisions to withhold a FoF for a buff, or the right time in a fight.

    It would feel sooooooo good.

  20. #760
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Or, or, or, ORRRRRRRR

    Each icicle that hits applies the frost bomb debuff and each subsequent icicle hit increases the duration and damage of your frost bomb. So the debuff extends without doing any damage.

    Then FoF (not an automatic icicle) detonates the bomb!

    Think about it! You could make some cool snap decisions to withhold a FoF for a buff, or the right time in a fight.

    It would feel sooooooo good.
    It is an interesting mechanic no doubt. Balancing that for PvP could be problamatic if the bomb can't be dispelled, but damn imagine that on Phase 1 Garrosh when he calls in adds after you have had a bomb going for 20-30 seconds. Could be amazing. Or hell even during MC parts where people stack, just drop bomb on them and do a good chunk of damage to break the MC.

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